Moral argument with friend

[lazerus]

(Wasn't sure if this should go in OT or SLAM. It's about logical arguments, but also largly personal)

I have a new friend, a young woman who I met because of a shared interest in tabletop RPG's. She's fairly obviously religious, she wears a small cross, etc, but religion has never really come up since I met here, so it was a non-issue.

One day however, a second friend of mine from out of town mentioned that a high school in his area had started adding intellegent design to its classes, and my distinicly unfriendly responce to that brought up the issue of god.

When I mentioned I was an athiest, she made the argument that I shoudln't be, but I'm not an immoral person, and all athiests are immoral because there can be no morality without a higher power.

I responded, as diplomaticly as possible, with the Divine Command argument. In essense, it says that if god says something is wrong because that something is just wrong, then there is morality outside of god. On the other hand, if that something, genocide was the example I used, is only wrong because god says its wrong, then, any "true beliver" would have to admit that they don't see anything wrong with the idea of comitting genocide other then that god says it's wrong.

Her responce however, was a flat, "Yes." While she insisted god woudln't say that, she admitted that if god suddenly said "Genocide is okay", she thought it would be okay.

This....floored me, frankly. She's a very nice person, and that statment seems to border on phsycotic.

After thinking about it, I'm assuming she simply didn't really grasp what I, or she, was saying., the argument didn't sink it. So, next time we meet, I was going to bring it up again.

Unforuntily, the Divine Command argument is the only argument against god I'm really familiar with, what are other arguements I might use that arn't terribly involved and complex, and, more importantly, can be made diplomaticly. I would rather not insult my friend, even if she is a little fundie.

[wolveraptor]

Ask her why she knows god wouldn't say that? She'll be forced to separate god and goodness in her explanation, if pressed.

[Dread Not]

My last steady girlfriend said something similar. I was describing secular humanism to her, saying much of its morality comes from logic. She replied that the only way to find logic is through the teaching of a messiah (Jesus, Buddha etc.). That royally pissed me off since atheists have no messiah, and wanted to launch into a rant at how full of shit that is and how it's a total appeal to authority but I kept a lid on it. Mind you, this wasn't morality, but logic she was talking about. Glad she's gone.

I would describe humanism to your friend, saying that morality should be about how an action impacts other human beings. For God to enter into it is absurd, because he's immortal, and actions on Earth won't harm him. Human beings on the other hand have to live (or die) with the suffering that comes their way, so the best morals should be ones that prevent the most suffering of human beings.

And if you think you can do it diplomatically, you should maybe explain to her how following God's word has caused great suffering throughout history, and still does today (discrimination against homosexuals etc.). And maybe mention that even though God doesn't say that genocide is acceptable, he certainly demonstrates it through is actions like flooding the Earth.

I'll be interested to hear how this developes.

[FSTargetDrone]

It's interesting that you bring this up, because the other day I was thinking to myself how none of my friends are remotely religious. Most, if not all of them, are atheists. One of my oldest friends (who I haven't spoken with on the subject) has evidently been studying Buddhism, but I don't realy know how far along he is with it, how important it is to him, and so forth. I only heard about it from my sister who is friends with one of his sister's, but the subject hasn't come up between us yet.

Dread Not's mention of his ex's religiousness made me remind myself of why I will never want to get involved with someone who is religious. It's no different to me than avoiding such a close relationship with someone whose political views are starkly in contrast to my own, whose worldview conflicts with my own, etc.

I'm not suggesting you (lazerus) end this friendship by any means. Your post just made me realize no one I know is like this, and I guess I hadn't really given it much thought before.

In any case, back to the OP, I'm not sure how I would handle someone who believes a genocide is acceptable if a god said it is so. Internally, I'd be screaming at her, but that obviously solves nothing. It seems as if she is mindlessly reciting the party line (so to speak), without any deep thought about it.

I wish you luck.

[lazerus]

In any case, back to the OP, I'm not sure how I would handle someone who believes a genocide is acceptable if a god said it is so. Internally, I'd be screaming at her, but that obviously solves nothing. It seems as if she is mindlessly reciting the party line (so to speak), without any deep thought about it.

I wish you luck.

Mindless reciatation seems distinctly superior to actually beleiving what she's saying, hopefully it's the former.

And thanks.

[DPDarkPrimus]

When I mentioned I was an athiest, she made the argument that I shoudln't be, but I'm not an immoral person, and all athiests are immoral because there can be no morality without a higher power.

I responded, as diplomaticly as possible, with the Divine Command argument. In essense, it says that if god says something is wrong because that something is just wrong, then there is morality outside of god. On the other hand, if that something, genocide was the example I used, is only wrong because god says its wrong, then, any "true beliver" would have to admit that they don't see anything wrong with the idea of comitting genocide other then that god says it's wrong.

Her responce however, was a flat, "Yes." While she insisted god woudln't say that, she admitted that if god suddenly said "Genocide is okay", she thought it would be okay.

This....floored me, frankly. She's a very nice person, and that statment seems to border on phsycotic.

After thinking about it, I'm assuming she simply didn't really grasp what I, or she, was saying., the argument didn't sink it. So, next time we meet, I was going to bring it up again.

Yes, do bring it up again. Have her repeat what she said.

Then say, "So if god told you to kill you a baby, would you?"

You'll probably have her try and sputter a lot of bullshit about how he wouldn't do it, but since she's already said that genocide is good if god says so, she's not going to have a foot to stand on in the apologetic department. If she asks for clarification, tell her, no, the baby hasn't done anything wrong, it won't grow up to be evil or anything, God just picked it at random and wants you to kill it. She can kill it in any method available to her.

Once she answers that yes, she would do it, then say "I would never kill a random baby, regardless of who told me to do so."

Feel free to throw in whatever else you want to.