Muslim sexism in weddings

[Darth Wong]

We all know how incredibly sexist the Muslim theocratic nations are, but here's a little anecdote from "moderate" Canadian Muslims that might interest you.

My brother was invited to the wedding of a Muslim friend. He went there with his wife. When they got there, a woman rushed out of the building to tell them to stop holding hands, because that is considered an insult to Islam. They complied, and then they were told to go through separate doors: one for women, and one for men. Somewhat more reluctantly, they complied with that as well.

Once they got inside, my brother discovered that the "womens' door" led to a small barricaded area, covering perhaps one eighth of the floor space of the room. The mens' door, on the other hand, led to the rest of the room. The women were, as he said, "literally packed in like sardines behind the barricade at the back of the room" while the men lounged about the floor.

During the ceremony, my brother was surprised to see that even the bride was stuck behind the barricade. The ceremony took place at the front of the room, between the groom and the bride's father. No contact at all took place between the bride and groom, and no vows were exchanged, because the wedding was not a contract between the bride and groom; it was an agreement between the groom and the bride's father. In fact, the groom gave $500 to the bride's father as part of the ceremony. And during all this time, the bride sat in the barricaded womens' area, minding her place.

So, to summarize:

1) Women get a tiny barricaded area to sit in, men get free run of the whole area.

2) The bride does not participate in the marriage ceremony at all.

3) The ceremony consists of the groom essentially purchasing the bride from her father.

And this is what they call "moderate" Islam.

[King Kong]

You can 'know' all about Islam's attitude towards women, but until you actually see it in practice or someone describes it to you, it doesn't really sink in. Disturbing and tragic.

Was this a purely arranged marriage, or did the bride and groom initially meet, but were given approval to marry by the father? While I am startled at the medieval details of the ceremony, the act of "purchasing the bride from her father" does not surprise me if it was an entirely arranged marriage.

[Surlethe]

If I were in his shoes, I think I would have seriously considered insisting my wife stay with me, or -- if they refused -- making my way into the women's chamber to stay with my wife. I mean, I would have been really pissed to have my wife denigrated simply to honor a friend's religion -- it's like letting someone spit on you because his religion says it's okay.

[Azrael]

Well that sounds like a rediculously boring ceremony. No touching, no holding hands, no at-the-alter kiss for the bride to be and definately no at-cerimony hook-ups for the other potential bachelors. Oh well. I guess socialization really is a moot point when you can just purchase your bride like a fucking used car, eh?

Fuck you to the numbnuts who invented this wedding from the dark ages and fuck you to the groom and father for screwing the bride out of what would should have been the happiest day in, what looks to be for her, a long and miserable life of indentured "service".

[Molyneux]

If I were in his shoes, I think I would have seriously considered insisting my wife stay with me, or -- if they refused -- making my way into the women's chamber to stay with my wife. I mean, I would have been really pissed to have my wife denigrated simply to honor a friend's religion -- it's like letting someone spit on you because his religion says it's okay.

Or, they could have simply left. It's what I would have done.

Considering that I used to think that the separate spaces for men and women in an orthodox shul was iffy....this is just horrendous, especially in a civilized country.

[AniThyng]

You can 'know' all about Islam's attitude towards women, but until you actually see it in practice or someone describes it to you, it doesn't really sink in. Disturbing and tragic.

Was this a purely arranged marriage, or did the bride and groom initially meet, but were given approval to marry by the father? While I am startled at the medieval details of the ceremony, the act of "purchasing the bride from her father" does not surprise me if it was an entirely arranged marriage.

The funny thing about this is that where I live, Islam is the entenched official religion and even in the urban areas of Kuala Lumpur, I suspect even "moderate" passes for "conservative" in the West. Nonetheless, I have never experienced such an absurd level of segregation in practice, so it is something of irony to read of such things happening in Canada of all places.

[Faqa]

If I were in his shoes, I think I would have seriously considered insisting my wife stay with me, or -- if they refused -- making my way into the women's chamber to stay with my wife. I mean, I would have been really pissed to have my wife denigrated simply to honor a friend's religion -- it's like letting someone spit on you because his religion says it's okay.

Or you could, you know, just leave the wedding.

That particular detail doesn't bother me so much. If it's anything like the Jewish counterpart, it just means they think women will distract the men during the prayers or whatever. It's outdated and sexist, but not deeply disturbing.

The purchasing of the bride on the other hand.... THAT is ten kinds of fucked up, none of which are a flavor of it I've encountered before. Islam is still in it's primitive stages, no matter how vehemently Muslims deny it.

[wolveraptor]

If this is a moderate Islamic practice, what the hell goes on in Saudi Arabian weddings?

[King Kong]

The funny thing about this is that where I live, Islam is the entenched official religion and even in the urban areas of Kuala Lumpur, I suspect even "moderate" passes for "conservative" in the West. Nonetheless, I have never experienced such an absurd level of segregation in practice, so it is something of irony to read of such things happening in Canada of all places.

Perhaps they are trying to preserve their traditions by taking their beliefs far more seriously than people in Muslim countries would, in fear that they will be corrupted by the decadent West.

[Surlethe]

Or you could, you know, just leave the wedding.

Shows how socially apt I am. Leaving is a better option than barging into the women's quarters, and would probably have been the end result of such an action, anyway.

[Lagmonster]

My wife wouldn't have done it; We would have paid our respects to the couple and left within five minutes. My wife's an educated woman with a respectable career and position - going through that kind of sexism would be literally unthinkable.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The funny thing about this is that where I live, Islam is the entenched official religion and even in the urban areas of Kuala Lumpur, I suspect even "moderate" passes for "conservative" in the West. Nonetheless, I have never experienced such an absurd level of segregation in practice, so it is something of irony to read of such things happening in Canada of all places.

Religion and culture in a given society tend to have strong effects on eachother. Further, Islam in Malaysia and Indonesia was separated from the power center of the religion by great distances for centuries, and these factors resulted in some divergences, including more moderate policies on the status of women (i.e., Indonesia had a female president not long ago, whereas such a thing would be inconceivable in most Middle-Eastern muslim states).

[Big Orange]

Funny, I had one of my cousins marry a Pakistani Muslim just last week and I never saw anything at the ceremony that approached this level of nonsense.

In fact the ceremony me and my dad visited was essentially secular and pretty normal, with none of the women being sent to a animal pen. In fact the Pakistani Muslim family that hosted the wedding I visited were more like Indian Hindus than Arab Muslims and were definitely quite Westernised.

[wolveraptor]

Frankly, this ceremony doesn't sound like a moderate Muslim practice at all. It's quite possible that the people Mike's brother encountered were thoroughly fundamentalist.

[Adrian Laguna]

I find it somewhat ironic that Christianity during the Dark Ages wasn't as sexist as Islam is now in many places.

[FSTargetDrone]

I agree with those who suggested he simply leaves the wedding. There's no way I'd want to be part of (let alone witness) any ceremony or the like that treats women so poorly.

As an aside, it makes me think how it's always disturbing to see "moderate" Muslim women who insist that restrictive dress isn't restrictive at all. Fairly or not, I see wearing of headscarves and heavy, shapeless clothing that covers a women's body not as "protecting" her, but instead as hiding of her, either from shame or whatever the hell other reason is given.

When you see Christian nuns wearing less restricitve clothing that ordinary Muslim women in some places, you really have to wonder...

[Netko]

Agreed that this doesn't sound like a moderate muslim wedding. While personally never attending one, I've seen wedding photos (have relatives who are Bosnian muslims) and it's basicly pretty similar to a Christian or a secular wedding except the people are dressed a bit diffrently. I know that it wouldn't be allowed here (except as an unofficial ceremony) since for a religious marriage ceremony to be considered to be legaly binding it has to be approved, one of the criteria being having both future husband and wife consenting to the marriage during the ceremony.

I will allow that my relatives are pretty much muslim culturaly only (I've only seen headscarves on elderly women, but that is a relativly general regional tradition, not something specific to muslims), so it would make sense for them to have a basicly secular wedding with a bit of cultural flavour trown in, however I've absolutly never heard of anything like this.

[StarshipTitanic]

And this is what they call "moderate" Islam.

Does your brother's friend claim to be a "moderate Muslim"?

I find it somewhat ironic that Christianity during the Dark Ages wasn't as sexist as Islam is now in many places.

Not to quibble, but I believe Muslims learned to veil their women and keep them in harems from the Byzantine Greeks. Witchhunts (not Dark Ages, but same mentality) were very sexist, as they targetted midwives and other women.

[Big Orange]

Why would religious thugs target women that helped the community such as midwives and herbalists? I imagine the majority of "witches" that were murdered were more often than not dotty, harmless old women that were used as easy scapegoats for the local community's problems.

[LongVin]

Question: What is the point of the wedding ceremony then? Why do you need everyone there for that if there is no actual ceremony between Bride and Groom? Couldn't they just do that at the fathers house?


Also is there a wedding reception afterwards?

[lance]

Why would religious thugs target women that helped the community such as midwives and herbalists? I imagine the majority of "witches" that were murdered were more often than not dotty, harmless old women that were used as easy scapegoats for the local community's problems.

I think it had something to do with the doctors of the time wanting to off the competition.

[Kettch]

Just because Groom is a moderate muslim, doesn't mean the bride's father isn't highly conservitive. Even relatively liberal Catholics can get ringed into the whole "Italian Wedding" with all of the traditional pomp & circumstance.

"If seperating the women was good enough for you father & I, why can't it be goof for you?"

I really am wondering which sect of Islam they belong to & what is their culteral background. A photographer friend of mine went to a Bediun wedding in Israel. She had a blast & the biggest segregation was that the men did the cooking & waiting on the women for the 'reception.'

[Darth Wong]

And this is what they call "moderate" Islam.

Does your brother's friend claim to be a "moderate Muslim"?

He's not advocating the destruction of the West. According to current political doctrine, that makes him a moderate.

[Ace Pace]

And I thought fundie Jews were bad.

I'm not sure even religious Jews would accept anything like this. In most Synagogues I've been at, it's been mostly seperate but equal, which is apprently beyond Islam.

[AniThyng]

Religion and culture in a given society tend to have strong effects on eachother. Further, Islam in Malaysia and Indonesia was separated from the power center of the religion by great distances for centuries, and these factors resulted in some divergences, including more moderate policies on the status of women (i.e., Indonesia had a female president not long ago, whereas such a thing would be inconceivable in most Middle-Eastern muslim states).

That much is true. It must be noted that ex-PM Dr. Mahathir's own wife, for all the pro-Islam views of her husband is rarely (if ever, i can't recall any occasions, possibly she does at state funerals or such...) seen with headwear, and the minister for international trade, also a muslim woman, does not wear them either. Anytime you see a woman in burkha here, even in the very conservative malay heartland, odds are more then likely that's a tourist, not a local.

With that in mind, I would wonder if the Middle East and thier dispora who apprently go to places like Canada and have not yet been there long enough to have lost thier old attitudes would be any better off even without Islam. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to continue finding excuses to oppress women in the absence of a religion, which is itself demonstratably capable of coexisting with the modern world elsewhere.