B5 Shadows vs Empire

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 07:13pm

Both sides have access to all the technology that has been used in cannon or official media.

In this particular scenario, the wormhole isn't in the galaxy, its 50,000 light years outside either galaxy, so it might be tricky for the Empire to plot hyperspace courses, and it would take time for the shadows to reach the galaxy, so it gives either side a bit of a struggle. (maybe)

*things to know*
-Mordan was never killed
-Rebels were crushed at Endor

The Emperor hates the shadows because they are alien and a threat, the shadows hate the Empire because they are about order.

Both sides discover each other, when a shadow probe, and Imperial probe both meet each other, at the wormhole. From there its up in the air

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-31 07:18pm

A question about the firepower and staying power of the Shadow vessels. Any idea on what it is? In the B5 universe they are quite potent, however I'm unaware of any calculations, etc. on the naked power of their weapons, etc. Any ideas or places to look?

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 07:22pm

willburns84 wrote:A question about the firepower and staying power of the Shadow vessels. Any idea on what it is? In the B5 universe they are quite potent, however I'm unaware of any calculations, etc. on the naked power of their weapons, etc. Any ideas or places to look?

unfortunately no, i'm not sure where you could look for b5 firepower, but according to 5'ers, shadow slicer beams bypass shields or armour, can't remember which

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-07-31 07:33pm

As I recall, Slicer Beams ignore armor.
The weapons used on a scout ignore shields

As for weapons, they come out to 1 million terrawatts or roughly 240 MT.

http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/d ... thray.html

Weigh the assumptions of the calcs as you will....

As for durability. They can survive hits from 500 megaton nukes.

However, I still think they're screwed in a space battle. While they'll do much better than the feddies, 200 gigatons is just...too....much.... fire power for a battle crab to handle.

In a conventional war, the Shadows are soundly defeated, though they bloody the Imp's nose a little bit.

However, since they have access to the plague, they could seed it on a small back water world, let's say Tatooine. The plague spreads through the planet, a smuggler leaves for a semi-major planet, infects that world, and eventually, coruscant itself is infected with the plague.

Would the imps be able to detect the plague and "cleanse" worlds that are infected? You tell me.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-31 07:34pm

Omega-13 wrote:
willburns84 wrote:A question about the firepower and staying power of the Shadow vessels. Any idea on what it is? In the B5 universe they are quite potent, however I'm unaware of any calculations, etc. on the naked power of their weapons, etc. Any ideas or places to look?
unfortunately no, i'm not sure where you could look for b5 firepower, but according to 5'ers, shadow slicer beams bypass shields or armour, can't remember which

Great. I always take the word of die-hard fans, be they 5'ers, Warsies, and Trekkies, on the prowess of their favorite series with a grain of salt. No offense to anyone out there...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-31 08:00pm

You guys should read the scenario more carefully. The wormhole is 50,000 light years outside either galaxy, so logistics become more critical than in any other scenario on this board. You have to travel 50,000 light years out of the galaxy and then 50,000 light years back in on the other side, so this wormhole location adds 100,000 light years to the trip! In effect, it's the same as having two galaxies 100,000 light years apart.

An Acclamator has an operational range of 250,000 light years, and an ISD dedicates much more of its internal space to equipment and fuel than an Acclamator does, so its range is probably greater (let's say 400,000 light years).

If we use Acclamator figures just to be conservative, this means the Empire can establish a base at the edge of its galaxy, send ships out for the 100,000 light year trip to our galaxy, and still have a 50,000 light year operational range before returning to base. This puts a third of the galaxy within range of sorties from base, with no need for bases in enemy territory.

If we use the 400,000 light year figure (which is just a guesstimate, mind you), the ISD would be able to fuel up before leaving, travel to our galaxy, and roam the entire galaxy easily during one sortie before returning home.

Now, here's the kicker: a Shadow battlecrab's range and speed are unknown. The entire territory of B5 and all of its associated races is quite small by SW standards: B5 is only 10 light years from Earth and it is considered neutral territory, thus limiting the size of EA territory. Centauri Prime is only 75 light years away from B5, thus limiting the size of Centauri territory. Etc.

Moreover, B5 hyperspace speeds appear to be limited to a few thousand times c. It takes 6 days to make a 75 light-year journey from B5 to Centauri Prime, and even if it only takes 6 hours for the more advanced races to do it, we're still talking about roughly 100,000c, which puts them at a serious disadvantage.

Let's assume that forward bases will rapidly come under attack and be destroyed. The 100,000 light year gap is rather large, and makes any kind of military operation extremely difficult, unless the ships have extreme speed and range. Given the fact that a typical SW ship can travel around 50,000 light years in less than 8 hours (as per a normal same-day trip from the core to the outer rim as in TPM and AOTC), it would take 16 hours for an Imperial battlegroup to reach Shadow territory and begin attacking/destroying targets. A Shadow battle-group, on the other hand, even given an arbitrary 24x speed boost over the ships of the younger races, would need around eleven months to make this trip.

Think of the damage that the Empire could do in those eleven months, especially when a typical round-trip for them will take less than 2 days. Worse yet, given the speculation that real objects cast disruptive mass shadows in B5 hyperspace (from b5tech.com; if anyone wishes to explain where they got this idea from, feel free), it seems likely that Imperial interdictors could pull Shadow ships out of hyperspace en route and attack them. And finally, the widely dispersed nature of the SW civilization and the widespread deployment of planetary shields after the clone wars would mean that any Shadow group which miraculously survived its year-long trip to the SW galaxy would find pretty slim pickings for targets.

There is also the range issue: can individual Shadow ships operate that far away from home base? Or would they need supply convoys (read: accompanying big, slow supply ships which would slow down the whole fleet and be easy pickings).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-31 08:06pm

BTW, I'm using the Acclamator range figures from the SW2ICS, which are the only published official range figures for SW ships. Anyone who wants to whine about them being non-canon can just blow me; they are official. And besides, it is not reasonable to ignore the ships' observed transit speeds in the canon movies, or to arbitrarily declare that they probably run out of fuel after a day, particularly given the fact that small one-man ships can easily make the trip from Coruscant to the Outer Rim and back on one tank.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 09:24pm

Also remember how laughable even Shadow firepower and shielding are compared to Imperial figures. An ISD could destroy a Battlecrab (EASILY) with only one shot. Their ISD's have the firepower of an SPK, and their ships have the ability to land troops, also. The Shadows would be wiped out VERY quickly. Their forces would be demolished, and they would be forced back in a matter of months without doing significant damage to the Empire. Without the ability to knock out an ISD, the Shadows have no ability to cause ANY damage of significance to the Empire. Their only "victories" would be stalling the Empire for a few weeks here and there. It would be a repeat of the Earth-Minbari war, except with the Shadows playing the EA. And there would be no Sheridan to kill an Imperial warship.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 10:29pm

Just a question, how strong are interdiction fields? I know they cause massive gravity wells, but equivalent to what?
We know the gravity of jupitor was too much for a whitestar of battle crab, they were only down a couple hundred km into the atmosphere, and the gravity almost didn't let the WS leave,

I admit the battle crab wasn't fully functional, but it still is interesting to know,

So are the interdiction fields make the same gravity as what? A large asteroid the size of texas? a moon? a planet? a sun?

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 10:30pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Also remember how laughable even Shadow firepower and shielding are compared to Imperial figures. An ISD could destroy a Battlecrab (EASILY) with only one shot. Their ISD's have the firepower of an SPK, and their ships have the ability to land troops, also. The Shadows would be wiped out VERY quickly. Their forces would be demolished, and they would be forced back in a matter of months without doing significant damage to the Empire. Without the ability to knock out an ISD, the Shadows have no ability to cause ANY damage of significance to the Empire. Their only "victories" would be stalling the Empire for a few weeks here and there. It would be a repeat of the Earth-Minbari war, except with the Shadows playing the EA. And there would be no Sheridan to kill an Imperial warship.

Remember, neither race knows where the other is, they just know there is a large galaxy 50,000 light years away when they come out the other side,
finding Imperial worlds is a lot easier than finding shadow basis...

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-31 10:34pm

Any victory the Empire believes it achieves will be an illusion, giving the Shadows time to regroup and plan. When you are immortal, what is the passing of a few decades/centuries when it comes to revenge? Of course, the Shadows will probably have to sacrifice the Drakh and other servitor races as the 'Shadows', but they can always make more...

Why do I say the above? While they are immortal, and have existed for billions of years, they realize they are not invulnerable. They prefer to work through proxies so as not to risk harm to themselves, and if faced with a 'real' threat they will not futilely throw there lives away. Besides, the introduction of the Empire to the B5 galaxy will definitely liven things up a bit...and like all mortal governments will be corruptable and guidable when the time is right.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 10:37pm

and if faced with a 'real' threat they will not futilely throw there lives away.

perhaps they won't have a choice

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 10:39pm

The only reason why finding Imperial worlds is easier than finding Shadow bases is because the Empire has far more worlds than the Shadows have bases. The Empire also has better sensors and intelligence-gathering capabilities, though perhaps not once they are in the B5 universe. Shadow ships cannot harm Imperial warships, and they certainly cannot scratch planetary shields in the SW universe.

Interdiction fields are not strong enough to damage SW starships, except for their hyperdrives if they actually pull a ship out of lightspeed. They merely simulate the mass of planets, however, they are powerful enough to actually propel capital starships in SW along faster than their engines can carry them (ref. Solo Command). This appears to be a HUGE amount of gravity. It is possible that they could destroy B5 ships.

By SW standards, a Shadowvessel is reasonably fast, very large, but laughably under-armed and shielded. They would stand no chance against even small capital warships in SW, except in huge numbers. If your ships cannot damage your opponents, and they are outnumbered, and the enemy's planets are well protected and potentially even beyond your range, how can you hurt your enemy? The Shadows would be shattered in a matter of months. They simply do not have the firepower to stand up to SW ships.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-31 10:39pm

So are the interdiction fields make the same gravity as what? A large asteroid the size of texas? a moon? a planet? a sun?

Irrelevant. Hyperspace is a twisted and compressed version of real space, with plasma fields and gravitational ebbs, flows, inclines, declines, eddies, etc. Entry is only possible (as far as the YR are aware) by the use of the material Quantium-40 to generate a wormhole-like vortex between the two dimensions. There is no evidence anywhere that an effect in real space can pull an object out of Hyperspace.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 10:42pm

Dead on Arrival wrote:
So are the interdiction fields make the same gravity as what? A large asteroid the size of texas? a moon? a planet? a sun?
Irrelevant. Hyperspace is a twisted and compressed version of real space, with plasma fields and gravitational ebbs, flows, inclines, declines, eddies, etc. Entry is only possible (as far as the YR are aware) by the use of the material Quantium-40 to generate a wormhole-like vortex between the two dimensions. There is no evidence anywhere that an effect in real space can pull an object out of Hyperspace.

Your point is irrelevent. He was asking about whether or not gravity well generators could destroy B5 ships, which they might be able to. Further, B5 ships are already GROSSLY outclassed by SW ships in terms of speed. The Shadows have no ability to pull SW ships out of hyperspace and SW MIGHT have no ability to pull a B5 ship out of hyperspace. There is no advantage, except that SW hyperdrives are MUCH faster, and their ships appear to have longer ranges.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 10:44pm

I have no idea, I haven't read all the books (the official ones that is)

Though all those interdiction fields won't be too healthy for the human brain inside the shadow ship, the ship has no shields right?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 10:48pm

Shadow ships have no shields, but they do appear to have some kind of energy-absorbant skin on their starships, similar to what the Vorlons have. It would be nowhere near enough to stop heavy weapons in SW, though.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 10:49pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Shadow ships have no shields, but they do appear to have some kind of energy-absorbant skin on their starships, similar to what the Vorlons have. It would be nowhere near enough to stop heavy weapons in SW, though.

I was thinking more along the lines of what huge gravity wells are going to do to the human brains controlling the ships

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-31 10:50pm

perhaps they won't have a choice

I don't see why, the Shadows have at least one base behind the equivalent of a SW cloaking device (no emissions in/out) located in deep space. Said base was designed to build Death Clouds assembly line style, though given its stated size (corel-like structure with the mass of a planet) I am sure the facilities for building other types of ships are available. The Empire can't track them while they are in Hyperspace, and it is questionable whether they could track them in real space either due to advanced stealth/ECM systems.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-07-31 10:59pm

Well, the OP states that both sides have access to all their tech, so that means the Shadows will get the Spell of Destruction, which is about the only way they can hurt a shielded Imperial ship. It creates a small, spherical universe and collapses it, crushing anything inside. Time and space within a certain distance of the spell become severely distorted. How far this effect extends is unkown, but is less than a quarter mile. Galen used a single SoD to destroy a Shadow battlecrab in the Technomage trilogy (Book 2, pages 209 to 211). As of Book 2, Galen was unable to make the spheres more than ~15 feet in diameter. I don't know if he was able to make them any bigger later. The maximum range given for the SoD was half a mile. Galen was able to cast it at least a dozen times in a few seconds when leaving Thenothk.

The Shadows best chance against a shielded Imp vessel would probably be to get in close and take out it's shields with a few SoDs. If they could do that, then the ship would be vulnerable to fire from the Shadow's capital ships.

In case anyone complains that this is not Shadow technology, it was stated in the Technomage trilogy and an unfilmed episode of Crusade that the 'mages get their tech from the Shadows. The Shadows created the first
'mages.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-31 11:06pm

He was asking about whether or not gravity well generators could destroy B5 ships, which they might be able to.

Doubtful. The ships were not in direct danger because of the gravity, but were in danger of being crushed by the pressure as they descened deeper into Jupiter. They were in an atmosphere, and as such would be limited at how fast they could accelerate lest the generated friction rip them apart. The preceding scene of them reaching Jupiter from Ganymede generates acceleration figures in the 10-20k G-range, so the gravity well alone was not the problem.

The Shadows have no ability to pull SW ships out of hyperspace and SW MIGHT have no ability to pull a B5 ship out of hyperspace.

Might? Try none, because an interdiction field won't do squat...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 11:07pm

Alright, I'll concede the points because I don't think that they're relevent to anything. SW has more firepower, speed, protection, numbers and probably range than the Shadows do. They would clearly win the conflict.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-31 11:10pm

SW has more firepower, speed, protection, numbers and probably range than the Shadows do. They would clearly win the conflict.

All irrelevant. Shadow plague spread on outlying worlds and spread as traders and merchants go from planet to planet. Shadows win, and not a shot fired in anger...

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 11:11pm

Dead on Arrival wrote:
perhaps they won't have a choice
I don't see why, the Shadows have at least one base behind the equivalent of a SW cloaking device (no emissions in/out) located in deep space. Said base was designed to build Death Clouds assembly line style, though given its stated size (corel-like structure with the mass of a planet) I am sure the facilities for building other types of ships are available. The Empire can't track them while they are in Hyperspace, and it is questionable whether they could track them in real space either due to advanced stealth/ECM systems.

there is the give away, the mass of a planet, with mass comes gravity

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-07-31 11:15pm

there is the give away, the mass of a planet, with mass comes gravity

Are we to assume the Techno-mages in all there Shadowtech-based splendor don't have the same gravity and mass-detection tech that the EA has?