Becoming the Stupidest Country on Earth

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Vympel
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Becoming the Stupidest Country on Earth

Post by Vympel »

An old blog entry by one of my favorite bloggers, with some interesting tidbits about the shit that's going on lately, and some thoughts.

(as well as a cool title)

Link
I would greatly prefer to be able to ignore the following kind of story entirely. Unfortunately, as the article notes, "millions of Americans find evolution preposterous. Polls consistently show that roughly half of Americans believe the biblical account instead." There is no way to phrase this politely, so I won't even try: I continue to find it absolutely astonishing that in the midst of life in America today -- a life made infinitely better than in the past by medical advances, by technological miracles, and by countless improvements of all kinds, all of which are the result of applied science, which means the application of reason, facts and logic to every aspect of our lives -- so many Americans are determined to remain pigheadedly ignorant.

And in addition to the zealous efforts of people like Ken Ham to increase the numbers of Americans who live in a state of anything but divine stupidity, these details reveal a very extreme form of psychological child abuse:

Evangelist Ken Ham smiled at the 2,300 elementary students packed into pews, their faces rapt. With dinosaur puppets and silly cartoons, he was training them to reject much of geology, paleontology and evolutionary biology as a sinister tangle of lies.

"Boys and girls," Ham said. If a teacher so much as mentions evolution, or the Big Bang, or an era when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, "you put your hand up and you say, 'Excuse me, were you there?' Can you remember that?"

The children roared their assent.

"Sometimes people will answer, 'No, but you weren't there either,'" Ham told them. "Then you say, 'No, I wasn't, but I know someone who was, and I have his book about the history of the world.'" He waved his Bible in the air.

"Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked.

"God!" the boys and girls shouted.

"Who's the only one who knows everything?"

"God!"

"So who should you always trust, God or the scientists?"

The children answered with a thundering: "God!"

A former high-school biology teacher, Ham travels the nation training children as young as 5 to challenge science orthodoxy. He doesn't engage in the political and legal fights that have erupted over the teaching of evolution. His strategy is more subtle: He aims to give people who trust the biblical account of creation the confidence to defend their views — aggressively.

He urges students to offer creationist critiques of their textbooks, parents to take on science museum docents, professionals to raise the subject with colleagues. If Ham has done his job well, his acolytes will ask enough pointed questions — and set forth enough persuasive arguments — to shake the doctrine of Darwin.

"We're going to arm you with Christian Patriot missiles," Ham, 54, recently told the 1,200 adults gathered at Calvary Temple here in northern New Jersey. It was a Friday night, the kickoff of a heavily advertised weekend conference sponsored by Ham's ministry, Answers in Genesis.

To a burst of applause, Ham exhorted: "Get out and change the world!"


With regard to the issue of child abuse, consider the following passage:

In two 90-minute workshops for children, Ham adopted a much lighter tone, mocking scientists who think birds evolved from dinosaurs ("if that were true, I'd be worried about my Thanksgiving turkey!").

He showed the children a photo of a fossilized hat found in a mine to prove it doesn't take millions of years to create ancient-looking artifacts. He pointed out cave drawings of a creature resembling a brachiosaur to make the case that man lived alongside dinosaurs after God created all the land animals on Day 6.

In a bit that brought the house down, Ham flashed a picture of a chimpanzee. "Did your grandfather look like this?" he demanded.

"Noooooo!" the children called.

"And did your grandmother look like that?" Ham displayed a photo of the same chimp wearing lipstick. The children erupted in giggles. "Noooooo!"

"We are not just an animal," Ham said. He had the children repeat that, their small voices rising in unison: "We are not just an animal. We are made in the image of God."

As the session ended, Nicole Ableson, 34, rounded up her four young children. "This shows your kids that there are other people who are out there who believe what you believe, and who have done the research," she said. "So they don't think 'This is just my parents believing in fairy tales.' "


When you reflect on the number of children who are raised in this kind of atmosphere -- where it is demanded that they obey and believe their parents and other authority figures like Ham, even when those adults are making them assent to the most offensive and crude nonsense -- it is not surprising that when those children become adults, they enthusiastically and willingly believe the most patently obvious lies offered to them by our political leaders. If the last several years have proved nothing else, they ought to have demonstrated that inexpressibly sad fact beyond all dispute. The pressures and the psychological mechanisms involved are the same, whether the individuals are children or adults. (These issues are discussed in more detail in the first part of my series on The Limits of Politics: The Roots of the Politics of Power, which I'll return to next week. As Alice Miller writes: "Our whole system of raising and educating children provides the power-hungry with a ready-made railway network they can use to reach the destination of their choice. They need only push the buttons that parents and educators have already installed.")

I should note this as well, which shows that the work of Ham and those who believe as he does is having a serious impact:

Bills that would allow or require science teachers to mention alternatives to evolution have been introduced in Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma and Utah. State boards of education in Kansas and Ohio adopted guidelines that single out evolution for critique. The governor of Kentucky used his State of the Commonwealth address to encourage public schools to teach alternative theories of man's origins.

At this rate, the nation that represented one of the greatest achievements of Enlightenment values will, within several decades, become the stupidest country on earth.

The LA Times story has many more details, if you can bear to read them.
Check the link, it's got a link to the LA Times story.

So, in any event- do you think there's a serious risk of this happening? Will the celebration of massive ignorance and rejection of accepted uncontroversial scientific fact lead to America getting stupid- and I mean noticeably so (ie. fall behind the rest of the world).
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Post by Vaporous »

The National Disenlightenment has begun. If the tide is not turned back, yes, we'll end up a backward nation eventually. It rests on whether or not the fundie movement can be slowed. One it loses momentum, we'll be alright for a time.
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Post by Ariphaos »

Christianity is declining at a rate of about 1% a year in the United States. However, while they're declining, the more vocal idiots among them seem to be panicking and doing things like... this.

Or profiteering off the masses a la Hovind.

I figure America is going the way of Greece 2,400 years ago. People are getting dissuaded from religious thought and those in power (many of them religious) are bucking at the trend.
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Post by Spoonist »

:twisted:
Risk of happening?
:twisted:
Dude, where have you been the last couple of years? It's already there...


Well not really. What we are seeing is a polarization of society. Where some christians are deliberately percieving todays situation with a wrong/right filter. This means that they will either try to change society (abortion laws) or declare that society is wrong.
This will get worse before/if it gets better. So expect a certain portion of society to go backwards while the rest of society moves forward.
Notice also that this is not only an american trend, in many european countries this is starting to happen as well. When the religious start organizing the zealots are heard more and more and the effects are slowly surfacing.

Now because of the school systems it will have different effects in different regions but we are all going there in a global trend.
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Post by McC »

Xeriar wrote:Christianity is declining at a rate of about 1% a year in the United States. However, while they're declining, the more vocal idiots among them seem to be panicking and doing things like... this.
Ultimately, I think this is what's most telling. Christians are disappearing, which is good, but the majority of these (and I'm speculating here) are likely the moderates who also embrace logic and reason and thus can analyze the beliefs they were raised with into non-existence. As such, while the population becomes less Christians, the Christians become more extremist because they lose their moderates to agnosticism/ignosticism/atheism.
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Post by Coyote »

One thing about studying history and archaeology is that you learn that no matter how big and powerful an empire may be at any given time, sooner or later their time in the sun fades and guys like me will sift their bones a thousand years later. I had hoped America would at least be able to match the Romans for time but I guess not. Oh, well.
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Post by RedImperator »

On the one hand, speaking as someone on the inside of the educational system, cranks like Ham are too few and too small to make more than an occasional ripple. It's also very hard to predict what a 3rd grader is going to believe in ten years; third graders believe in all kinds of ridiculous things, Genesis among them.

On the other hand, speaking as someone on the inside of the educational system, we don't need Ken Ham to be totally boned. And we are. And noboody's making a serious effort to fix it above the level of individual districts, at best. And nobody will, because everyone has too much of a vested interest in the system as it is. So yeah, we're fucked.
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Post by McC »

Coyote wrote:One thing about studying history and archaeology is that you learn that no matter how big and powerful an empire may be at any given time, sooner or later their time in the sun fades and guys like me will sift their bones a thousand years later. I had hoped America would at least be able to match the Romans for time but I guess not. Oh, well.
Eh, I find it unlikely (though in some ways I hope I'm wrong) that we'll really see any major industrialized Western country "fail" in the way that old Empires did. The U.S. may certainly fall from prominence, but in another 200 years, I'd be surprised if the U.S. didn't still at least exist.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The problem is that America is rocketing toward a two-tiered society. There will be the increasingly secularized, highly educated, well-off part of society, and then there will be the underclass.

The two classes will go to different schools, live in different neighbourhoods, believe different things, and in general, have completely different lives, with ever-decreasing opportunities for movement from one class to the other. And the gap in their wealth will only increase over time, as the large and stupid underclass is duped into voting for things that actually harm their economic interests by a combination of flag-waving and outright dishonesty.

Eventually, if the problem becomes too severe, the underclass will become so large and so disconnected with the pseudo-aristocracy that the aristocracy will no longer be able to manipulate them, and they will usher in governments that are more amenable to their interests. The result will be the rule of the stupid, which will be even more catastrophic to the nation but which will allow them to vent their frustration and anger upon the aristocracy through various punitive measures and/or direct violence.

Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
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Post by raptor3x »

Hmmn, *reads article.*

Canada's looking pretty good right now.
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Post by RedImperator »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem is that America is rocketing toward a two-tiered society. There will be the increasingly secularized, highly educated, well-off part of society, and then there will be the underclass.

The two classes will go to different schools, live in different neighbourhoods, believe different things, and in general, have completely different lives, with ever-decreasing opportunities for movement from one class to the other. And the gap in their wealth will only increase over time, as the large and stupid underclass is duped into voting for things that actually harm their economic interests by a combination of flag-waving and outright dishonesty.

Eventually, if the problem becomes too severe, the underclass will become so large and so disconnected with the pseudo-aristocracy that the aristocracy will no longer be able to manipulate them, and they will usher in governments that are more amenable to their interests. The result will be the rule of the stupid, which will be even more catastrophic to the nation but which will allow them to vent their frustration and anger upon the aristocracy through various punitive measures and/or direct violence.

Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
The "rule of the stupid" scenario seems to assume that a fuinctioning democracy will persist in some form in a society that heavily polarized. I don't think that will be the case. More likely, the American sytem will devolve into authoritarianism. You probably wouldn't see an open dictatorship. I envision something like the PRI in Mexico, where you nominally have a democracy, complete with elections, but there's only one viable political party that's run by and for the wealthy elite that panders to the underclass just enough to prevent revolt (of both the electoral and armed variety), but doesn't actually pay attention to what they say. In other words, Karl Rove's wet dream.

That's not a better scenario, really, but it is the one I see as a worst-case.
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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem is that America is rocketing toward a two-tiered society. There will be the increasingly secularized, highly educated, well-off part of society, and then there will be the underclass.

The two classes will go to different schools, live in different neighbourhoods, believe different things, and in general, have completely different lives, with ever-decreasing opportunities for movement from one class to the other. And the gap in their wealth will only increase over time, as the large and stupid underclass is duped into voting for things that actually harm their economic interests by a combination of flag-waving and outright dishonesty.

Eventually, if the problem becomes too severe, the underclass will become so large and so disconnected with the pseudo-aristocracy that the aristocracy will no longer be able to manipulate them, and they will usher in governments that are more amenable to their interests. The result will be the rule of the stupid, which will be even more catastrophic to the nation but which will allow them to vent their frustration and anger upon the aristocracy through various punitive measures and/or direct violence.

Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
So, how can this course of events be prevented? Educate the underclass?
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Post by Count Dooku »

RedImperator wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The problem is that America is rocketing toward a two-tiered society. There will be the increasingly secularized, highly educated, well-off part of society, and then there will be the underclass.

The two classes will go to different schools, live in different neighbourhoods, believe different things, and in general, have completely different lives, with ever-decreasing opportunities for movement from one class to the other. And the gap in their wealth will only increase over time, as the large and stupid underclass is duped into voting for things that actually harm their economic interests by a combination of flag-waving and outright dishonesty.

Eventually, if the problem becomes too severe, the underclass will become so large and so disconnected with the pseudo-aristocracy that the aristocracy will no longer be able to manipulate them, and they will usher in governments that are more amenable to their interests. The result will be the rule of the stupid, which will be even more catastrophic to the nation but which will allow them to vent their frustration and anger upon the aristocracy through various punitive measures and/or direct violence.

Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
The "rule of the stupid" scenario seems to assume that a fuinctioning democracy will persist in some form in a society that heavily polarized. I don't think that will be the case. More likely, the American sytem will devolve into authoritarianism. You probably wouldn't see an open dictatorship. I envision something like the PRI in Mexico, where you nominally have a democracy, complete with elections, but there's only one viable political party that's run by and for the wealthy elite that panders to the underclass just enough to prevent revolt (of both the electoral and armed variety), but doesn't actually pay attention to what they say. In other words, Karl Rove's wet dream.

That's not a better scenario, really, but it is the one I see as a worst-case.
I envivsion something similar to what happened to the Romans: a psuedo democracy devolving into a dictatorship. All it takes is one crafty President, and we're in for a heap of trouble.
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Post by Coyote »

Count Dooku wrote:All it takes is one crafty President, and we're in for a heap of trouble.
So, we're safe for now, then.

Huh. Never thought there'd be an endorsement for the current Admin.

As for "will there be an America in 200 years" I dunno-- it may exist on paper but I see very heavy doses of 'regional autonomy' for places like the South, which will probably morph into the Theocratic Republic of Jeezustan in fact if not in name.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Post by Edi »

Coyote wrote:
Count Dooku wrote:All it takes is one crafty President, and we're in for a heap of trouble.
So, we're safe for now, then.

Huh. Never thought there'd be an endorsement for the current Admin.
Stupid and cunning/crafty are, sadly, not mutually exclusive, though a smart and cunning person is far more effective. And in this case it's the smart and cunning ones using a stupid, ignorant and arrogant puppet as a front for what they're doing.

Your society is rather well on the road Red envisioned unless the next couple of administrations do some serious rolling back of all the shit that Emperor George Bush the Second, als o known as Dubya the First, pushed through. Because if you give that arsenal to someone who is smart and cunning enough to wield it like a poisoned dagger in a dark alley instead of a blunt a instrument in the broad light of day (as Bush has done, relatively speaking), you won't like the results. At all.

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Post by K. A. Pital »

Darth Wong
If the leadership is really secular and promoting enlightement, education and reason, it's not that bad.

But if it's a fundie leadership itself? :?
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Post by Simplicius »

Stas Bush wrote:If the leadership is really secular and promoting enlightement, education and reason, it's not that bad.

But if it's a fundie leadership itself?
It seems that the best argument for small-government conservativism is that there is no guarantee that the rulers will always be wise and just. A compartmentalized system can limit the damage done by an idiocracy, even though it confines the benefits of a good government.
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Post by Penitent Tangent »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem is that America is rocketing toward a two-tiered society. There will be the increasingly secularized, highly educated, well-off part of society, and then there will be the underclass.

The two classes will go to different schools, live in different neighbourhoods, believe different things, and in general, have completely different lives, with ever-decreasing opportunities for movement from one class to the other. And the gap in their wealth will only increase over time, as the large and stupid underclass is duped into voting for things that actually harm their economic interests by a combination of flag-waving and outright dishonesty.

Eventually, if the problem becomes too severe, the underclass will become so large and so disconnected with the pseudo-aristocracy that the aristocracy will no longer be able to manipulate them, and they will usher in governments that are more amenable to their interests. The result will be the rule of the stupid, which will be even more catastrophic to the nation but which will allow them to vent their frustration and anger upon the aristocracy through various punitive measures and/or direct violence.

Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
I'm sorry but I disagree with these results. I dont think the U.S. will de-evolve into a religious state reminicient of the dark ages because of all of the progress we've seen in in the past few years. Think about it, 40 years ago atheism was a crime, while you warent actually sent to jail you would be turned into an outcast and everyone would hate you. Even today gays and gay rights are more accepted. Yes Massachusetts is curently the only state where gays are legaly married but thats one more state than there were only a few years ago. If you were to talk about gay rights 20 or 30 years ago people would be laughing at you but now things are different. Every disease gets worse before it gets better. This new Fundamentalist explosion is just desparation, fundis know they are losing power and members and so are fighting harder and harder for control even if the fight can never be won.
The two classes will go to different schools
The curriculum will still be the same. The standards for graduation will still be the same. Laws will ensure of that.
live in different neighbourhoods, believe different things
We do that now. Certain people live in certain area but we still know of each-other. The world today if far smaller then ever before. With easy transportation accross continents and the ever increasing internet access people are closer then ever before thus making it hard for a major group to be significantly different than another.
with ever-decreasing opportunities for movement from one class to the other
If you are reffering to unemployment, the rate is very low and has not fluctuated much despite the events of the past few years.
And the gap in their wealth will only increase over time, as the large and stupid underclass is duped into voting for things that actually harm their economic interests by a combination of flag-waving and outright dishonesty.
Granted this is a good point and I cant argue this in any way. The only thing to do now though is to wait for the november elections and the presidential ellections and hope that the smart voters trump the stupid
Eventually, if the problem becomes too severe, the underclass will become so large and so disconnected with the pseudo-aristocracy that the aristocracy will no longer be able to manipulate them, and they will usher in governments that are more amenable to their interests.
Since this is speculation there is no way to prove this one way or the other. However the subclass has always been larger and the aristocracy could always manipulate them but I don't know what the threshold is.
The result will be the rule of the stupid, which will be even more catastrophic to the nation but which will allow them to vent their frustration and anger upon the aristocracy through various punitive measures and/or direct violence.
This would be the deciding factor here, either the stupid corrals everyone into hatred of the aristocracy and we turn to communism or a briliant aristocrat shows everyone the error of theyr ways but again this is speculation but I don't believe things would go this way.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Penitent Tangent wrote:I'm sorry but I disagree with these results. I dont think the U.S. will de-evolve into a religious state reminicient of the dark ages because of all of the progress we've seen in in the past few years. Think about it, 40 years ago atheism was a crime, while you warent actually sent to jail you would be turned into an outcast and everyone would hate you. Even today gays and gay rights are more accepted. Yes Massachusetts is curently the only state where gays are legaly married but thats one more state than there were only a few years ago. If you were to talk about gay rights 20 or 30 years ago people would be laughing at you but now things are different. Every disease gets worse before it gets better. This new Fundamentalist explosion is just desparation, fundis know they are losing power and members and so are fighting harder and harder for control even if the fight can never be won.
Just because certain developments, largely from the 90s, have bled over into the new millenium doesn't mean that society is still on an upswing. It was at one point, but the USA has gone through numerous mass societal changes in its past, both Enlightenment and Religious Revival, and they rarely last for more than a few decades. Now, on the flip side, that does mean that this new trend towards ignorance could simply fade away, even if it persists for many more years, but there is always a risk that the changes will go too far, and we'll be thrown into a downslide that cannot be repaired without, say, a civil war.
The curriculum will still be the same. The standards for graduation will still be the same. Laws will ensure of that.


Laws change all too easily when the preveiling thought desires them to be modified. Or, they can simply be ignored, as our current administration has proven so adeptly.
We do that now. Certain people live in certain area but we still know of each-other. The world today if far smaller then ever before. With easy transportation accross continents and the ever increasing internet access people are closer then ever before thus making it hard for a major group to be significantly different than another.
If regional boundaries become difficult to maintain, artifical districts or even ghettoes can be formed, even if they are termed otherwise. Humans are quite adept and segregating themselves when they wish to do so.
This would be the deciding factor here, either the stupid corrals everyone into hatred of the aristocracy and we turn to communism or a briliant aristocrat shows everyone the error of theyr ways but again this is speculation but I don't believe things would go this way.
More likely, such an event would result in the collapse of the society, especially if the uneducated classes started to actively persecute the educated ones, as they almost certainly would. Either a dictator would step into the power vacuum created by the infighting, or the nation would simply fall apart.
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Post by Penitent Tangent »

Just because certain developments, largely from the 90s, have bled over into the new millenium doesn't mean that society is still on an upswing. It was at one point, but the USA has gone through numerous mass societal changes in its past, both Enlightenment and Religious Revival, and they rarely last for more than a few decades. Now, on the flip side, that does mean that this new trend towards ignorance could simply fade away, even if it persists for many more years, but there is always a risk that the changes will go too far, and we'll be thrown into a downslide that cannot be repaired without, say, a civil war.
The gay rights movements begain in the 90's yes but it's peak happened in 2002 and it still going on. Religious revival is not new but it is no stronger today that it was before. Until I see congress outlawing homosexuality and forcing intelligent design in classes I do not believe the Religious right would win. Yes the trend will fade away in time religion will be erroded to the point where it is meaning less.

Laws change all too easily when the preveiling thought desires them to be modified. Or, they can simply be ignored, as our current administration has proven so adeptly.
On a federal level perhaps but not the states it would take a long time and there would be a lot of opposition.
If regional boundaries become difficult to maintain, artifical districts or even ghettoes can be formed, even if they are termed otherwise. Humans are quite adept and segregating themselves when they wish to do so.
So soon after the civil right movement i doubt it there will be no segragation not in this generationat least. And like I said the internet brings everyone together.

P.S. I have to go to school so dont think I am ignoring anyone. I will reply as soon as i get back.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Penitent Tangent wrote:The gay rights movements begain in the 90's yes but it's peak happened in 2002 and it still going on. Religious revival is not new but it is no stronger today that it was before. Until I see congress outlawing homosexuality and forcing intelligent design in classes I do not believe the Religious right would win. Yes the trend will fade away in time religion will be erroded to the point where it is meaning less.
Yes, the Gay Rights Movement is still going on; it will go on until adequete reforms are put in place, or such protests are outlawed. Sure, sypathetic politicans and judges who actually understand the American judical system have allowed a few victories, but opposition is still harsh, and doesn't seem to be relenting at all. How many times has the Anti-Gay Marriage Admendment come before the Congress now? How many states have passed, or attempted to pass laws expressly banning the practice? There are still enough reasonable people in Washington to hold back the tide, but resistants in the states is still strong, and overwhelming in many places.

As to the eventual fate of this religious resurgence, only time can tell.
On a federal level perhaps but not the states it would take a long time and there would be a lot of opposition.
As I have noted above, there is just as much bigotry and ignorance in state governments as there is in the Federal, probably more, espeically in the South and much of the Mid West.
So soon after the civil right movement i doubt it there will be no segragation not in this generationat least. And like I said the internet brings everyone together.
You over-estimate humanity's ability to learn from it's mistakes; dress up segragation in misleading legislation, and many might not even notice until it was too late.

And the internet can be controlled, just like all other meida. It may not be as easily manipulated as television or print publications, but it can be done nonetheless.
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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

There is the other option that the needed intelligent professionals will flood over from China and India, both of which will quite easily rival the USA in terms of global power this century. Both of which have a great many poor peasants, but an ever growing number of very highly educated, often secular children keen on science and engineering.

Of course, with the US' stance on immigration, this stopgap may never happen.
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Talanth
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Post by Talanth »

Darth Wong wrote:SNIP...
Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
Sounds very similar to how the Kingdom of France went. As an aside, thinking of people (failing to) learning from past mistakes, is there much European history taught in American schools? Maybe my school was a bit of an exception but we talked about the mistakes past governments made and what caused variose societies to fall; a lack of controle over the lower classes was near the top of the list.
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Noble Ire
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Post by Noble Ire »

Talanth wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:SNIP...
Just my guess as to how things will go if nothing is done. The timeframe could be quite long on this though; I make no pretenses as to knowing how long it will actually take.
Sounds very similar to how the Kingdom of France went. As an aside, thinking of people (failing to) learning from past mistakes, is there much European history taught in American schools? Maybe my school was a bit of an exception but we talked about the mistakes past governments made and what caused variose societies to fall; a lack of controle over the lower classes was near the top of the list.
As far as I know, European History is still a staple of high school cirriculums (ae?) (I took an Advanced Placement course on it, but it is an element of regular World History as well), but as with all parts of the American school system these days, a course is only as good as the teacher and the school's funding for it, both of which are often lacking. Indeed, current school "reforms" focus less and less on the social studies in favor of Math and English; in short, if a kid doesn't care enough to actually take interest in the lessons history teaches, they aren't going to simply pick them up out of necessity, as they might basic reading skills or something.
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Thanas
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Post by Thanas »

Neither a hugely uneducated mob nor a class system is a threat to the stability of an empire. See the roman empire for that fact, which recruited large parts of its intellectuals from the greeks. I can see that happening in the future, and I believe it is still going on. Just look at all those European scholars flocking to the US universities. Granted, there have been some setbacks, but I do not see that the trend is stopping anytime soon.

More threatening will be the rise of other powers, for example China, India or Europe (once they get their act together).
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