LOTR - Stravo's Gripes (SPOILERS)

[Stravo]

I saw the Two Towers at the Midnight show in Manhattan last night. FIRST let me get this out of the way. It was a good movie, I enjoyed it but this thread is about things that really irked me about the movie independent from how good it is. For all those LOTR zombies that will flame and attack...a loud and proud FUCK YOU and you WILL be ignored in this thread if you simply flame. There are points being made that should be addressed. So, for the vast majority of us on this board that are rational human beings let's discuss these points and let me have your thoughts on this:

1) The Elves joining the battle of Helm's Deep WTF?!?!? The Battle of Helm's Deep was about Man's entry into the War of the Ring and his first great stand against the shadow. When the Elves show up it just pollutes the entire purpose of the Battle to show the bravery of the Rohirrim. C'mon, when I saw this I groaned outloud. It was sooooo tacky, cheesy, forulaic and UNTOLKIENLIKE. What purpose did the Elves have in showing up, they were FLEEING MIddle Earth at this time, no one was going to march Elven archers to war when the vast majority were gone or going. It made NO SENSE and violated one of the basic precepts of the whole story. This is the dawn of the Age of Man. Man stands up for himself and saves the world from shadow. This whole theme was even present in FOTR for fuck's sake when Elrond asks Gandalf who will he call upon to save Middle Earth. "It is to men we will look." Oh yeah...men and a whole gaggle of Elven archers Christ the more I write about it the more it pisses me off.

2) The Castration of King Theoden OK. I LIKED how they portrayed Theoden as this decaying old man and then suddenly Gandalf shows up and Theoden shakes himself free of his indecision and old age and he becomes this proud powerful man, just like in the books. BUT then they goon to portray Theoden as this indecsiive guy who flees to Helm's Deep to seek refuge. last time I read it, they went to Helm's Deep to MAKE A STAND. NOT HIDE OUT. This violates another major plot line and BUTCHERS a great character. Theoden is shown as this pompous ass who is looking to just save his people and hopes to whether the storm, and he wonders how did it come to this, and he even wonders if his men will stay loyal to him during the fight. His resolve has to be constantly butressed by Gandalf and Aragorn. WTF?!?!? Theoden was a kicker of ass and taker of names in the books. His resolve did not falter. And then blasphemy of blasphemies, Aragorn speaks the lines that Theoden was supposed to speak about riding forth into one last battle. FUCK. One of my favoriite lines in the books was Theoden when HE BUTRESSES ARAGORN'S RESOLVE by saying that they will ride forth and make their deaths worthy of song. GOD that pissed me off when I saw that.


3) The ASSASINATION OF FARAMIR'S CHARACTER Faramir in the movie was portrayed to be a Bormoir clone when in fact in the books he is shown to be NOTHING like Bormoir. GUESS WHAT? Faramir was SUPPOSED to be different than Bormoir. In the books he does not even want to look at the ring and he sends Frodo on his way. What does this show? That there are still good strong willed men that are honorable and it shows what Boromir should have been. Seriously, WHY did they have to make Farmair like Bormoir, the same point would have been gotten across the way Tolkien wrote it, instead, what we get is a Boromir clone that changes his mind at the last second and rather reluctantly I might add. Why not call him Boromir II and get it over with?? Christ this was nearly vomit inducing.

4) Additional Scenes that added NOTHING to the story When I saw some of these additonal scenes (Galadriel's telepathic speech with Elrond was particulalrly cringe inducing) I thought, Pete Jackson wants to write his own LOTR. He is like B&B in the sense that TTT should be given the same monicker as Boobyprise (inspired by LOTR) The Warg attack, COMPLETELY UNNECCESARY FLUFF that only set us up for some contrived Aragorn bullshit scenes that were useless and added NOTHING to the story. UGH. Frodo being taken to Osgoliath....WHY??!!?!? What purpose did that scene show other than...ohhhh...Frodo is being corrupted by the Ring. Give me a fucking break.

Mind you I am NOT advocating that some fleshing out should not be done, I was particulalry impressed with how the Eowen and Aragorn romantic triangle was played out. BUt guess what, that served a PURPOSE in the story, Warg scene..NOTHING...think of it this way, if it had been edited it out would you have missed it??

5) No Shelob C'MON. Tolkien had a PERFECT ending for TTT. Frodo fights Shelob, is taken prisoner at Minas Morgul leaving Sam wondering how he was going to save Frodo. HELLO??!? Would not THAT have been the perfect ending? It would have been akin to the Han Solo in Carbonite thing...leaving people to wonder for a whole year HOW is Sam going to save Frodo (for those few of us who have not read the book) So that leaves P. Jackson with three hours in ROTK to tell the tale of Frodo's fight with Shelob, his torture and rescue at Minas Morgul, the Siege of Gondor, the march and battle at the Black Gate, the defeat of Saruman, and the Destruction of the Ring....OK, I predict a rushed last movie if this holds true.

Oh and the small nits that just bugged me.

The magical horses: One we have Theoden in his hall and Aragorn says lets ride forth, camera cuts to the orcs chopping the last of the door down, camera cuts back, Theoden and Company are all mounted and ready for battle...OK, those are some magical horses to just appear like that in a span of seconds. Two, the charge of Eomer down a STEEP ROCKY INCLINE with heavy horse wearing full armor....broken legs perhaps?...those are some tough magical horses.

These are my thoughts, I'd like to hear yours.

[Zaia]

I have a question for you, Stravo: did you have similar issues with FotR, or was it just with the plot developments in TTT that have you annoyed/bothered/peeved?

I wish I could comment on your thoughts, but I don't really think I can since I am one of the few who hasn't read the books yet. I can understand adjustments to the story to expediate it to fit in a movie timeframe, but to retell it, especially after Peter Jackson said he was trying to stay true to the story--!!! How obnoxious. Is there any way some of the things you have a problem with in TTT will set something up for the last movie? Like, changing TTT to bypass some of what's left in 'The Return of the King' for the sake of brevity?

Like I said, I don't know the story, so I just wondering if that's possible.

[Dalton]

There's a distinct possibility that the last half of Return of the King has either been cut out entirely or severely shortened.

[Stravo]

I have a question for you, Stravo: did you have similar issues with FotR, or was it just with the plot developments in TTT that have you annoyed/bothered/peeved?

I wish I could comment on your thoughts, but I don't really think I can since I am one of the few who hasn't read the books yet. I can understand adjustments to the story to expediate it to fit in a movie timeframe, but to retell it, especially after Peter Jackson said he was trying to stay true to the story--!!! How obnoxious. Is there any way some of the things you have a problem with in TTT will set something up for the last movie? Like, changing TTT to bypass some of what's left in 'The Return of the King' for the sake of brevity?

Like I said, I don't know the story, so I just wondering if that's possible.

No Zaia, I did not have any issues with FOTR. THAT's what really pissed me off. How could he have been so true to the book in the first movie then go off on his own and make the kind of intentional changes That did nothing to improve the story, in this movie. I felt like I had been suckered in by FOTR and now I'm getting the shaft in this movie. Like I said, I liked this movie and if I were in the same boat as you Zaia and had not read the books then I probably would have loved this movie, but as a fan of the work I was appalled by many of the liberties taken.

[irishmick79]

I'm kind of dissapointed that they cut Shelob out of the story. I was curious to see how Shelob would have looked. The whole trek through the mountain corridors just to get into Mordor was a sweet scene. But then again, scenes shot in total darkness and relying completely on dialogue to move things forward probably wouldn't have had much impact.

[Andrew J.]

Elves: Well, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf were there in the original, but they were only a couple people...but, as a I recall, didn't the Ents have something to do with driving the orcs away after they had been repulsed? It's been a while since I read the book, so correct me if I'm wrong, but men were far from the only things fighting the orcs.

Theoden: He's the guy that goes mad after looking at the palantir in RotK, right? Maybe they're trying to make his character look more consistent.

Faramir: Minor character. Doesn't really matter what he acts like so long as he helps the hobbits.

Additional scenes: Meh.

No Shelob: I agree here. Grrrr.

Magical horses: Maybe a signgificant amount of time passed between the "let's ride" and the breaking down of the doors. As for the mountain...Rohirrim horses are supposed to be special, aren't they?

[tharkûn]

The elves killed me, come on THEY weren't supposed to be there.

Other things:
The orcs do not overrun the walls so quick. They are supposed to charge the walls, get pushed back, charge the walls, get pushed back SEVERAL TIMES. I cringed everytime I saw the "tactics" the defenders employed (here is a hint when they are putting up ladders ... push them back with pols and snap them in the middle, when the rush with a battering ram ... where the hell is the burning oil?). For the life of me I can't beleive the defenders would be so tactically stupid.

THE ENTS DECIDE TO GO TO WAR IN MOOT. Why in HELL DID the ents not decide to go to war first off, they KNOW that orcs are killing trees, they know (from Gandulf if nothing else) that Saruman is behind it ... why in hell did we have to have a contrived scene for the ents not to give a damn and then they magically all get pissed off when they see the trees down ... dumbasses they would have known before hand.

Why didn't we get to see Aragorn giving his speech to the orcs at dawn? Would you not have loved to have seen them blow the wall out from under him?

[Beowulf]

I'm pissed about the calavry charge into the fixed pikes. That's absolute suicide. It's just, ugh. Frodo should have never have been in the city at the end, and where's Shelob? That's one of the great parts of it. I get the feeling where going to see an extremely abbreivated return to the Shire and the leaving of the elves. It's quite possible that we won't have the Shire being taken over. And the Elves were quite wrong. They shouldn't have been at Helm's Deep. Maybe at the battle at the Black Gate, but not at Helm's Deep.

[Zaia]

No Zaia, I did not have any issues with FOTR. THAT's what really pissed me off. How could he have been so true to the book in the first movie then go off on his own and make the kind of intentional changes That did nothing to improve the story, in this movie. I felt like I had been suckered in by FOTR and now I'm getting the shaft in this movie. Like I said, I liked this movie and if I were in the same boat as you Zaia and had not read the books then I probably would have loved this movie, but as a fan of the work I was appalled by many of the liberties taken.

So I take it you don't think the changes Jackson made in TTT is going to set anything up for RotK? That's a shame, since at least there would be justification behind his liberties.

I think I'm going to wait until the last movie is released before reading the books. I guess that probably sounds strange, but I'm trying to keep the two seperate, so I can love both without (hopefully) having one affect the other. It's harder when you know the written word first, and then see someone else's vision of it. I don't think it's quite as hard to do the reverse.

[CmdrWilkens]

Enitirely minor note but Frodo was NOT imprisoned at Minas Morgul, he was taken into Cirith Ungol which is on the other side of the mountains from Minas Morgul

[Stravo]

Enitirely minor note but Frodo was NOT imprisoned at Minas Morgul, he was taken into Cirith Ungol which is on the other side of the mountains from Minas Morgul

My bad.

[Raptor 597]

So they killed Saruman yet? I haven't seen it and I'll be pissed.

[Master of Ossus]

There's a distinct possibility that the last half of Return of the King has either been cut out entirely or severely shortened.

They have said that there will not be the Scouring of the Shire. Besides, Sam was not given Galdriel's box in the extended FotR, so it would be impossible for them to add it, now.

[kheegster]

Sigh....looks like FotR was an aberration after all...and comic relief is NOT needed when a battle is about to begin.

KG

[Yogi]

Somewhere along the line, I think that Peter Jackson decided he was a better writer than JRR Tolken and he knew what parts of the book was important better than JRR Tolken did. He's dead wrong.

For crying out loud, he adds scenes to INCREASE tension, as well as COMIC RELEIF. Do you want MORE tension or LESS, decide!!!

[neoolong]

There's a distinct possibility that the last half of Return of the King has either been cut out entirely or severely shortened.

They have said that there will not be the Scouring of the Shire. Besides, Sam was not given Galdriel's box in the extended FotR, so it would be impossible for them to add it, now.

Did it occur at the same time of the rope? Because if not they can still put in it.

Of course, if they have already said no, then it's a moot point.

[lgot]

In the other movie they wear the elven capes and stuff but we never seen Galadriel giving it. Does anyone know if this is one of the cut scenes ?

About Faramir. It is not a minor character. He is what makes Boromir complete. I always liked how Boromir was actually heroic but failed. Faramir was a way to always remember this, that companionship must prevail. To remember aobut Boromir humanity (after all, the ring of power should have corrupted at least one person in that book, ne). I never liked Faramir because that, he was not boromir, he was so different. If he is make like Boromir that does not only kill Faramir but Boromir also.

There is not the spider ?
I suppose that either:

The third book is more simple of the 3. It is more action so they may had problem to make the division (it is a different narrative).
The number of People who are like "Is it all ? Where is the rest" when The Fellowship finished. That was the comment in the end of every session. They mighty have worried to end like the second book (it is much more "where is the end" that is the first one) so i suppose the new ending may try to deal with that ? (no clue, have not watched yet but it is a guessing)...
And it is ironic how they made Legolas for women when in this book he was the one praising Gimli strong legs...
(its also annoy me how since the first movie they are trying to make up more feminine participation...Odd how Galadriel even in the other books is kind of shy person who come say a line and disaper for thousand years)

[CmdrWilkens]

So they killed Saruman yet? I haven't seen it and I'll be pissed.

Well Saruman doens't die he is released as a spirit that is blown away after looking to the West. Remember he is a Maiar, undying.

[Stormbringer]

The two points I've got to agree with you on are the portrayal of Theoden and Faramir. They didn't fit with the book versions of either very well. And the exorcism of Theoden was a little too blatant if you ask me.

Did I hate it, hell no. I think it still kicked mucho ass. I can accept a few of the differences and the changes. I would have liked to see them portrayed closer to their book origins but it didn't kill the movie for me.

And I think Peter Jackson added the elves not to show men as weak but to show that they still aren't ready yet. That they are growing into this as the Elves exit stage West. After all, the elves were slaughtered.

And I get why he didn't leave off with Shelob. If The Scouring of the Shire is cut back there is precious little to make up Frodo's half of Return of the King. And it'd make for a very uneven final movie.

And Osigilath is to show the war beginning on the Gondorihm front. It's basically to show the seige of humantiy.

[Dalton]

I wonder what'll go into the extended edition.

[Stormbringer]

I wonder what'll go into the extended edition.

I think that has the potential to make up for at least some of my disappointments. Same as it did for FotR. At least to a degree with Theoden, but I don't see what can be done about Faramir.

[neoolong]

In the other movie they wear the elven capes and stuff but we never seen Galadriel giving it. Does anyone know if this is one of the cut scenes ?

Yes. The gifting scene with the daggers, rope, bow, capes, etc. are in the Extended version.

[Dalton]

I wonder what'll go into the extended edition.

I think that has the potential to make up for at least some of my disappointments. Same as it did for FotR. At least to a degree with Theoden, but I don't see what can be done about Faramir.

I don't like what Faramir became, but I do recognize the necessity for it. In the book, he's a goody-two-shoes, the golden child, everything his brother wasn't and frankly a boring character. He doesn't completely lose that in the movie: he might have wanted to take the ring to his father (perhaps to gain favor?) but he never seemed tempted by the ring to the degree that Boromir was (i.e. willing to kill Frodo and steal it).

[Dalton]

In the other movie they wear the elven capes and stuff but we never seen Galadriel giving it. Does anyone know if this is one of the cut scenes ?

Yes. The gifting scene with the daggers, rope, bow, capes, etc. are in the Extended version.

I noticed that Sam didn't get the mallorn seed and Lorien soil from Galadriel. That does not bode well to me...

[Joe]

So they killed Saruman yet? I haven't seen it and I'll be pissed.

Well Saruman doens't die he is released as a spirit that is blown away after looking to the West. Remember he is a Maiar, undying.

No, he does die. His spirit rises from his body, looks to the West, and is blown away; IIRC, I think Tolkien confirmed in one of his letters that this was the Valar rejecting him.