Was Thrawn right or wrong?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2006-07-20 01:50pm

So, apparently Thrawn's allegiance to the Empire was for order and strength that comes from that order, and his attempt to rebuild the empire was an effort in the preparation of things to come, including the distribution of sleeper cells of clones who loved their homes.

I've only read the first NJO book, where Chewie bites the comet, but I've gathered enough that the war was ghastly in lives and material lost, and made bloodier still by political infighting and treachery.

If Thrawn's vision of a unified galaxy was fulfilled, would things have happened differently?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2006-07-20 02:13pm

It was a moon, actually.

To properly answer the question, one of the higher ranking YV (I believe it was Nom Anor) notes that the formation of the NR when it did was a blessing for the invasion, since the Empire at its height would have mercilessly crushed them. Assuming that the galaxy under Thrawn would've maintained its military forces, the NJO would've lasted 3 books, tops.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-07-20 02:42pm

Well according to Outbound Flight Tharwn was told about the threat from outside the galaxy. So it could be argued that Thrawn did what he did for the Empire to protect the Chiss. However Thrawn self admitidly destroyed entire civilizations who wouldn't submit to Imperial will. This is an evil act and cannot be argued to be otherwise.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-07-20 04:12pm

Thrawn knew about the Vong. He even gave Palpatine what information the Chiss had on them.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2006-07-20 06:20pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:It was a moon, actually.

To properly answer the question, one of the higher ranking YV (I believe it was Nom Anor) notes that the formation of the NR when it did was a blessing for the invasion, since the Empire at its height would have mercilessly crushed them. Assuming that the galaxy under Thrawn would've maintained its military forces, the NJO would've lasted 3 books, tops.

I remember reading in the first NJO book the gravity wells they had, but I don't quite remember much from the book since overall it was unmemorable. How did they get over that?

And why would the Empire have mercilessly crushed them? Sheer overwhelming force? Would there have been massive casualties on the Empire side as well?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-07-20 06:43pm

Trytostaydead wrote:And why would the Empire have mercilessly crushed them? Sheer overwhelming force? Would there have been massive casualties on the Empire side as well?

Organization and less chance of disruption. Much of the YV strategy needed that the NR were disorganized boobs because it gave the impression the fleet versus fleet the NR would win.

So with the Empire being much more organized and helluva a lot more brutal in mass destruction tactics, the Vong would've never gotten the foot hold they needed.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-20 06:46pm

Trytostaydead wrote:I remember reading in the first NJO book the gravity wells they had, but I don't quite remember much from the book since overall it was unmemorable. How did they get over that?

Vong dovin bassals ("black hole" generators) put out easily detectable gravitational distrubances or something, so after that first time, their world killer would be ineffective, at least against a world that could fight back. Their "shield" versions can be overcome with sheer force or an overwhelimg number of blasts.

And why would the Empire have mercilessly crushed them? Sheer overwhelming force? Would there have been massive casualties on the Empire side as well?

As Nom Anor puts it, the Empire had a military that was vastly superior to the NR's, in both size and firepower. Additionally, the divisive tactics Vong inflitrators used to destabilize the NR (instigating civil wars on crucial planets, turning political factions against one another, turning everyone against the Jedi, etc.) would not have worked against the Empire, due to it's comparitive stability.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-07-20 10:32pm

If the Vong had captured a planet under Thrawn or Palpatine, they'd have ordered it BDZ at the minimum. Possible Death Star'd or worse.

Thrawn had the right idea, but the wrong approach to doing it.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2006-07-20 11:27pm

Lord Pounder wrote:Well according to Outbound Flight Tharwn was told about the threat from outside the galaxy. So it could be argued that Thrawn did what he did for the Empire to protect the Chiss. However Thrawn self admitidly destroyed entire civilizations who wouldn't submit to Imperial will. This is an evil act and cannot be argued to be otherwise.

If you're referring to that dialogue between Thrawn and Pellaeon, I felt it could be taken two ways. He destroyed it because he couldn't understand it, or it ended up being destroyed because of his inability to find a decisive victory and submition.

Kind of like carpet bombing of German and Japanese cities until they submitted, and maybe this civilization didn't.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-07-21 12:12am

Or perhaps they were something like the Yevethens.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-07-21 06:27am

Trytostaydead wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:Well according to Outbound Flight Tharwn was told about the threat from outside the galaxy. So it could be argued that Thrawn did what he did for the Empire to protect the Chiss. However Thrawn self admitidly destroyed entire civilizations who wouldn't submit to Imperial will. This is an evil act and cannot be argued to be otherwise.
If you're referring to that dialogue between Thrawn and Pellaeon, I felt it could be taken two ways. He destroyed it because he couldn't understand it, or it ended up being destroyed because of his inability to find a decisive victory and submition.

Kind of like carpet bombing of German and Japanese cities until they submitted, and maybe this civilization didn't.

His exact words where "i ended up destroying their world". Thats pretty clear that he BDZ'd their planet outta existance.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-07-21 07:19am

It is obvious that an Empire under Thrawn would not have given the YV as much as a tiny bit of the galaxy, would have pushed them out by brute force and/or better strategy... fruthermore, there would not have been any inner problems when you just have one leader... and Thrawn certainly ws capable of that...

I would even go as far and say that in this case, the end justifies the means. How many destructive conflicts would not have happened had Thrawn won in the first place? Also, Thrawn was not a xenophobe like Palpatine, therefore there would not have been such an oppression of the civil population.
Actually I believe, once Thrawn had controlled the galaxy, behind him an army of clones, he would not have needed any of the cruel actions Palpatine undertook to maintain his reign.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2006-07-21 07:22am

Lord Pounder wrote:
His exact words where "i ended up destroying their world". Thats pretty clear that he BDZ'd their planet outta existance.

Not exactly true. There's many ways to destroy a world, and all not necessarily intentional. For example, if Thrawn was using older ships, a crashed one could've poisoned their world, Leia on the Noghri home world initially thought it was a legitimate reason for the devastation of their world and was full of self-guilt about it.

We don't know anything about the species of civilization he was attacking either.

His words, "ended up destroying" suggest other options were tried before their destruction. I'm not saying that in all probability Thrawn BDZ'ed their planet, but we don't know that for sure as it's pretty ambiguous. And from everything I've read in the two Thrawn trilogies, he can be cruel and calculating, but it never seemed he was out for wholesale slaughter unless he had to.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-07-23 04:04pm

Either way, Thrawn succeeded in wiping life off the planet. Whether it be BDZ or by wiping out the atmosphere or poisoning it or something else...

The Vong would convert whole planets into shipyards that grew their materials. The NR didn't have the backbone to wipe out inhabited worlds, no matter what their use. The Empire did.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-07-24 06:59am

Noble Ire wrote: As Nom Anor puts it, the Empire had a military that was vastly superior to the NR's, in both size and firepower. Additionally, the divisive tactics Vong inflitrators used to destabilize the NR (instigating civil wars on crucial planets, turning political factions against one another, turning everyone against the Jedi, etc.) would not have worked against the Empire, due to it's comparitive stability.

You know, why should Nom Anor word be taken for truth? While he was an expert in the political arena that was Republic politics, where has he displayed military competence sufficient enough to judge on the performance of the Empire?

One can similarly argue that the GE was slow to react to the Rebellion and relied too heavily on brute force to defeat it. Similarly, conflicts within the Imperial Hiearchy as shown in the siege of Yavin and the political conflicts between Vader, the admirality and other military/political figures delayed and weakened any Imperial response. No invasion of Mon Calamari, despite its importance to the Rebel cause was successfully undertaken and security was weak enough that Rebel cells constantly penetrated and stole vital intelligence such as the Death Star plans.

The only saving grace is that the NR military strength is a shadow of what the GE is able to muster, however, how do we know that this strength will be effectively focused against the Yuzhan Vong?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-24 12:23pm

PainRack wrote:The only saving grace is that the NR military strength is a shadow of what the GE is able to muster, however, how do we know that this strength will be effectively focused against the Yuzhan Vong?

We know this explictly. In Destiny's Way, a passage describes how, even though they've been winning the war for years, the tide begins to turn against the Vong as soon as the NR stabilizes it's government and truly focuses on the war effort, simply because of the sheer scale of galactic population and production capability, even when badly ravaged by invasion. Under the Empire, which already had a strong, decisive, and highly military leadership, those resources would have been activated before the Vong even got a stable foothold. Nom Anor's reasoning is completely valid.

The reason the Empire failed to destroy the Rebel Alliance (and keep in mind, the RA never really destroyed the Empire; it self-destructed after Palpatine's death) is because it did not fight in a conventional way, raids instead of fleet battles, terrorist bombings instead of ground campaigns. Though the Vong did use subterfuge to some extent, when it came time for them to fight, they relied largely on numbers, terror tactis, and brute force. Think of the Galactic Empire as the United States; during World War Two, it was able to fight off and defeat, or aid in defeating, two of the greatest militaries ever seen on Earth, and yet in Vietnam, facing a far inferior foe, it eventually lost, because the opponent did not fight in a conventional manner.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2006-07-25 08:24pm

Trytostaydead wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
His exact words where "i ended up destroying their world". Thats pretty clear that he BDZ'd their planet outta existance.
Not exactly true. There's many ways to destroy a world, and all not necessarily intentional. For example, if Thrawn was using older ships, a crashed one could've poisoned their world, Leia on the Noghri home world initially thought it was a legitimate reason for the devastation of their world and was full of self-guilt about it.

Acutally, Command decision clarifies that Thrawn wilfully BDZ'ed the planet and only ordered the art museum to be spared from Bombardement.

Whether the galaxy would be better off if Thrawn had succeeded? If you purely rely on numbers, then yes, certainly. The vong would have been defeated very fast.

However, Thrawn is essentially a Shogun. His power is based on the military and not popular support. The real question is whether a benevolent military dictator would be better for the SW galaxy?

He would not hesitate to use brute force and commit atrocities if he would view it as necessary. If your planet needs a little BDZ'ing in his opinion, tough luck. THen again, there is only one recorded use of BDZs he commanded and he generally seems to refrain from committing atrocities.
Comparing Thrawn's record of good administration and that he at least tries to minimize the impact on civillians by the military (See Tatooinbe Ghost were he stops Stormtroopers from beating up/Killing civillians), refrains from using brutal torture (see Karrde or Hoffner) and is able to show compassion and caring (Ferasi), his reign would most likely be beneficial to the public as a whole.

Thrawn would be something akin to the enlightened rulers like Frederick II of Prussia or Marc Aurel. A soldier king, but probably also concerned about the welfare of his subjects.

Considering the horrible job the best and brightest of the NR have done,
then yes, Thrawn would definitely have been better. But not if your name would be Pieterson.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-25 11:32pm

Thanas wrote:
Trytostaydead wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
His exact words where "i ended up destroying their world". Thats pretty clear that he BDZ'd their planet outta existance.
Not exactly true. There's many ways to destroy a world, and all not necessarily intentional. For example, if Thrawn was using older ships, a crashed one could've poisoned their world, Leia on the Noghri home world initially thought it was a legitimate reason for the devastation of their world and was full of self-guilt about it.
Acutally, Command decision clarifies that Thrawn wilfully BDZ'ed the planet and only ordered the art museum to be spared from Bombardement.

Summary please?

But not if your name would be Pieterson.

?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-07-26 12:07am

Thrawn had Rukh execute a guy named Pieterson for his incompetence, allowing Luke to escape the Chimera in Heir to the Empire. That's the only reference I can think of in this context that makes sense...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-26 12:13am

Anguirus wrote:Thrawn had Rukh execute a guy named Pieterson for his incompetence, allowing Luke to escape the Chimera in Heir to the Empire. That's the only reference I can think of in this context that makes sense...

Ah yes. I forgot that schmuck's name.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2006-07-26 03:04am

Anguirus wrote:Thrawn had Rukh execute a guy named Pieterson for his incompetence, allowing Luke to escape the Chimera in Heir to the Empire. That's the only reference I can think of in this context that makes sense...

The nice part later, is when one Ensign tries a different way to capture Luke's fighter, but the equipment fails. Thrawn goes down there, finds out what happened, and commends the Lieutenant on his quick thinking, innovation, and promotion.

The troops loved him after that.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-07-26 03:25am

IIRC, the guy that Thrawn had killed didn't merely screw up, he then got caught lying trying to cover his ass.

atg · Post by **atg** » 2006-07-26 04:39am

Coalition wrote:
Anguirus wrote:Thrawn had Rukh execute a guy named Pieterson for his incompetence, allowing Luke to escape the Chimera in Heir to the Empire. That's the only reference I can think of in this context that makes sense...

The nice part later, is when one Ensign tries a different way to capture Luke's fighter, but the equipment fails. Thrawn goes down there, finds out what happened, and commends the Lieutenant on his quick thinking, innovation, and promotion.

The troops loved him after that.

Imperial Overlord wrote:IIRC, the guy that Thrawn had killed didn't merely screw up, he then got caught lying trying to cover his ass.

Essentially Imperial Overlord is right; the guy that was killed had tried to shift blame to his immediate superior, saying that he hadn't trained him to deal with the situation, despite that training being standard issue stuff for his position.

On the second occasion the man controlling the tractor beams had tried an out of the square solution to the problem, which Thrawn noted was brilliant, especially considering the limited time he had to come up with the plan, which didn't succeed, I believe, only because the tractor equipment couldn't handle what it should have been able to do.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-07-26 05:29am

Amd then assigns him the task of find way to solve the problem. Which the man obviously suceeded in. Calrissian tries a similar trick in the Hand duology and gets his ass handed to him.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-07-26 07:46am

Yep, Thrawn was an interesting cat all right. Even if you didn't always agree with him, you had to respect that he always had a good reason for everything he did.

I'm kinda interested in how "Outbound Flight" Thrawn evolves into the somewhat more ruthless one we know from Zahn's original trilogy.