Moderator: Vympel
Ah yes, the Devaronians. Forgot about them.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The Devaronians are cited with developing interstellar space travel 500,000 years ago. That would serve as a general benchmark for the rest of the Galaxy as a whole.
And just what the fuck were the people on that planetary city eating? Courscant's surface stopped seeing the sun 90,000 years BBY. The only possible way to support a population on a world like that is with off-world agriculture, and we know for a fact that food is coming in from other systems (which would make it exactly like Trantor right down its vulnerabilities, which is how Lucas concieved the planet).There was a planetary city on Coruscant by that point, but that does not mean that whatever civilization controlled it had FTL. Coruscant was host to at least one surviving native species (possibly humans, even if that is unlikely). Alderaan could have been colonized by sleeper vessels, as other planets were (the Duro used that method extensively, and it might explain the profusion of human sub-species: they were ancient sleeper colonies).Not to mention that planets like Coruscant and Alderaan were colonised for about 100,000 years each. Though both are in the Core, remember that they're not on the same side of the Galaxy.
This bit is more than enough to explain the defeciencies. I see no need to go straight from one planet kingdoms to a galaxy spanning civilization. Each major world probably spread slowly with small scale FTL. Coruscant could have very well been it's own little power in that cornerr of the galaxy.I like KOTOR, but minimalist bullshit is minimalist bullshit. Coruscant as an ecumenopolis doesn't make any sense without FTL travel, and it's been an ecumenopolis for at least 90,000 years. It might not be hyperdrive, but it had to be something.
Well, there are two possible explanations;RedImperator wrote:And just what the fuck were the people on that planetary city eating? Courscant's surface stopped seeing the sun 90,000 years BBY. The only possible way to support a population on a world like that is with off-world agriculture, and we know for a fact that food is coming in from other systems (which would make it exactly like Trantor right down its vulnerabilities, which is how Lucas concieved the planet).
I like KOTOR, but minimalist bullshit is minimalist bullshit. Coruscant as an ecumenopolis doesn't make any sense without FTL travel, and it's been an ecumenopolis for at least 90,000 years. It might not be hyperdrive, but it had to be something.
Did you not read what I just wrote? The entire planetary surface was not just covered, it was untouched by sunlight 90,000 years BBY. Do you understand how high and dense the buildings have to be built in order for that to happen? Even in the densest parts of Lower Manhattan, only the alleys and really narrow streets are in shadow all day, every day, all year. Coruscant had to be completely covered in skyscrapers at least as tall as the tallest on Earth today. Even if a single planet somehow could provide food for the (at minimum) hundreds of billions of people living in a worldwide city, there was literally no place to grow it.Shadowtraveler wrote:It's not too unlikely to assume they had places that grew food or something. I mean, Coruscant back then was nowhere near as big a city as it is now, and there were less people as well.
You mean hydroponics, right? I've no idea how much space growing all that food would take up, but surely they'd have to ship in food from off-world to feed everyone and even then it'd be difficult. One thing ST could offer is replicator tech, and given SW power generation tech is what it is they'd surely have enough energy to power all those replicatorsShadowtraveler wrote:My mistake. Didn't know that they managed to cover the surface by then.
Still, they could have had hydrophonics.
No dice. You need raw food stock to feed to replicators. What replicators DO let you do is turn low grade food stock into stuff that's actually palatable, but you still need to feed the machine something.EnterpriseSovereign wrote:You mean hydroponics, right? I've no idea how much space growing all that food would take up, but surely they'd have to ship in food from off-world to feed everyone and even then it'd be difficult. One thing ST could offer is replicator tech, and given SW power generation tech is what it is they'd surely have enough energy to power all those replicatorsShadowtraveler wrote:My mistake. Didn't know that they managed to cover the surface by then.
Still, they could have had hydrophonics.
Xim the Despot introduces up another good point, which is despite the lack of hyperdrive (or FTL in the same ballpark of speed and range), which is the size and distance of his empire. Not only had many core worlds colonized for 70,000 years or more by then and several minor races were traveling with FTL drives, but Xim was carving out an empire in the mid/outer-rim, out past Hutt space. His empire expanded quite large untill the Hutts came by and fought with him, all within his lifetime.SirNitram wrote:I beleive the stuff regarding Xim the Despot, a pre-Hyperspace ruler of alot of places, includes references to subspace technologies, including FTL sensors. It may be they had a more primitive, slower form of FTL prior to that. It would make it the equivalent of the Colonial Era, as opposed to crossing the US today.
This is very true. What we're likely looking at is a FTL tech that lacks the convenience, range, and ease of use of hyperspace, but still works. This isn't a huge limiting factor; Hyperspace is so fast you can go 'Beyond the outer rim' in a single-man fighter without worrying about supplies!(AOTC).Utsanomiko wrote:Xim the Despot introduces up another good point, which is despite the lack of hyperdrive (or FTL in the same ballpark of speed and range), which is the size and distance of his empire. Not only had many core worlds colonized for 70,000 years or more by then and several minor races were traveling with FTL drives, but Xim was carving out an empire in the mid/outer-rim, out past Hutt space. His empire expanded quite large untill the Hutts came by and fought with him, all within his lifetime.
This isn't exactly indicitave of an isolated coreworld civilization with exceedingly-slow space travel.
It's a step up from toxic gases and liquids to nanotechnology. Borg nanoprobes are not a poison or toxic substance. Care to connect the dots?warpusher wrote:Here are some clarifications:
Detoxify poison from WEG games (and from what I can remember...I don't have all my old books here in Iraq) was a power that enabled those with it to basically do what is said. Mild poisons were like alcohol. If you were strong with the force, you could take in hardcore chemical agents (EG nerve gas) and not be affected.
In TPM it is shown when Obi and Qui-Gon walk out of the room that is full of some type of highly deadly (in the Trade feds minds) nerve gas. They were not using their resperators, and were able to live in an area to my eyes 100% filled with gas. They did not have masks, hoods, chemical suits on either.
Thus I would believe that somewhere in the force this is an ability...
A million cubic feet is a cube 100 feet to a side, or a rectangular prisim 200 feet wide by 500 feet long by 10 feet high. That's 100,000 square feet or all of 2.3 acres. That's enough, at present day farming efficencies, to feed two people.Crossroads Inc. wrote:If we are talking about a planet thats covered by a City, whose to say you can't drill down bellow it, carve out several million cubic feet of space and grow food under ground?
There wouldn't be anything stopping them from TKing the little buggers out of action would there?Mario1470 wrote:It's a step up from toxic gases and liquids to nanotechnology. Borg nanoprobes are not a poison or toxic substance. Care to connect the dots?warpusher wrote:Here are some clarifications:
Detoxify poison from WEG games (and from what I can remember...I don't have all my old books here in Iraq) was a power that enabled those with it to basically do what is said. Mild poisons were like alcohol. If you were strong with the force, you could take in hardcore chemical agents (EG nerve gas) and not be affected.
In TPM it is shown when Obi and Qui-Gon walk out of the room that is full of some type of highly deadly (in the Trade feds minds) nerve gas. They were not using their resperators, and were able to live in an area to my eyes 100% filled with gas. They did not have masks, hoods, chemical suits on either.
Thus I would believe that somewhere in the force this is an ability...
Didnt Mon Mothma get infected by a Nano Destroyer virus which took one Jedi several hours to manually pull out of the body one by one ?Lord Pounder wrote:Yeah there would. Nano probes by their nature are tiny. Jedi have always found it harder to use TK on smaller objects. Now imagine millions of microscopic objects. Even Jedi have limits and can be overwhelmed. Not every Jedi is as powerful as Yoda or the Skywalkers.
Source?Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The Devaronians are cited with developing interstellar space travel 500,000 years ago. That would serve as a general benchmark for the rest of the Galaxy as a whole.Noble Ire wrote:Where are you getting that? Pre-Republican galactic civilization is only 30,000 years old, tops, barring the ancient race like the Kwa and Rakata. True, some species, like humans and Duros, may have had space flight for a few thousand years before that, but I doubt it was that long.Spanky the Dolphin wrote:25,000 years isn't that much compared to 500,000, which is how far advanced Star Wars is compared to us and Star Trek.
Which is a totally different thing and IIRC the Nano Destroyer was designed to make her decline slowly and publically. Nano Probes actively attack the body in a matter of minutes converting and adapting to it's purposes.PREDATOR490 wrote: Didnt Mon Mothma get infected by a Nano Destroyer virus which took one Jedi several hours to manually pull out of the body one by one ?
If all Jedi could do it then one would think the other Jedi would have simply banded together to rip them out.
How do you figure this? The later EU Jedi Academy students have done things that was never seen before in the Old Republican Era. At the Battle of Coruscant I didn't see Padewans hurling TF battleships outta the system. Prove that the Prequal era students are better trained and more powerful.Since this is "properly" trained Jedi and not the KJA Academy. There would be a greater chance that they could do it but if it takes even more than an hour then it could be useless in a combat area.
And? As Luke Skywalker himself showed in Heir To The Empire that while the Jedi have techniques to cope with poisoning and stun weapons they require several minutes of deep concentration to prepare. While a Borg is very unlikely to get close enough to a Jedi to in ject nano probes if it does the Jedi is in a world of hurt.The injection of Nano Technology into Janeway in Endgame or the Security Chief in First Contact had them sprouting implants within several minutes.
The area of delivery will affect the speed as well as the length of time for infection and the amount of infection that is injected.
Mara Jade is a high level Jedi Master, one picked by the Emperor himself to he his personal servent, she is not a typical Jedi. Can you prove that a Nanoprobes works like a Coomb Spore?There is the issue of Jedi like Mara Jade who was able to fend off that Yuuzhan Vong virus for months so Jedi infected with Borg Nanotechnology may be able to hold it off long enough for them to be treated properly. It all depends on the strength and training of the Jedi though.
The Yavin incident is hardly a benchmark of NR Jedi ability. Displacing Pellaeon's fleet required the combined effort of a dozen Jedi and adepts, the focusing power of the Massassi pyramid (designed as a Dark-Force focal point by an ancient Sith lord), and involved the death of one of the participants. However, it is true that some of those involved did exhibit extrodinary feats, like manipulating the wind to knock over Imperial war machines, even if they all didn't possess that kind of power. I'm not sure if a true comparison of the power levels of each era can be made.Lord Pounder wrote:How do you figure this? The later EU Jedi Academy students have done things that was never seen before in the Old Republican Era. At the Battle of Coruscant I didn't see Padewans hurling TF battleships outta the system. Prove that the Prequal era students are better trained and more powerful.
That doesn't really account for it, though. Sure, most of the thousands of old order Jedi were fairly mundane compared to many of the new Jedi, but there were still numerous ones with comperable or greater power. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi-Mundi; the sheer number of them would seem to place a "Force Drain" hypothesis in doubt.Falcon wrote:If the Force is an energy field then who is to say that more people tapping into it doesn't cause it to weaken. Prequel students were much larger in number and the Force had been under constant heavy use for thousands of years by the relatively large number of Jedi. When Luke's handful of students were accomplishing their feats the Force had been given a respite of several decades and there were much fewer of them around.
