The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned" (Part II)

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-22 10:26am

You know, I don't even agree with the "compromise" idea that only SW-related quotes from Traviss should be in the article. Look at the articles for Carrie Fisher or other actors and real life people; they contain information completely unrelated to their work in SW. And that's fine, because while this is SW Wiki, these are real people whose lives aren't soley defined by SW. The articles are even categorized as "Behind the Scenes."

Furthermore, Traviss's negative quotes are related to SW. Like it or not, that is how she chooses to interact with many SW fans, and this has escalated into a fairly well-known issue at a number of the more prominent SW forums. All of this bitching is about a SW issue: the supposed 3 million clones. And just look at all the quotes on in the article right now. All of them are about SW, or her work in SW. All those people voting "Delete" because this is supposedly unrelated to SW, or has no place in a SW encyclopedia, are being idiots.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-22 10:27am

+http://blogs.starwars.com/pablog/86

Allston is already warning people about the characterizations in KT's work, and there are two more "Republic Commando" books coming out.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-22 10:48am

Concerning the consistency of characterization versus the individual styles of authors, Allston noted, "You have to remember that real life people aren't 100% consistent. You're not exactly the same person today as you were yesterday. We don't have to write the character identically in order to be consistent.

It's true, people do change over time. However, they don't change that quickly. As someone who has not read the novels leading up to this, I would like to ask how Leia has been portrayed recently.

For instance, in Bloodlines, Karen has a much better ear for Leia at her snarkiest than I do. You will read Karen's Leia and it will be Leia at her most cutting."

Leia's a bitch now? Karen, are you sure you're not writing yourself?

"Remember that what an author does is watch what the characters are doing," explained Traviss. "If you talk to people about somebody that you both know, you'll have very different views about the same person. What you see is the different shades of the character there."

WTF? People have different personalities, leanings, and a limited view of what happens around them. That's what causes different POV. But if this novel is being written in third person (like every other one is), isn't it from the "POV" of an objective, omniscient narrator? If Leia's quotes are bitchy, and there's no good in-universe reason to explain this behavior, then she is being a bitch. Not just because she's being "viewed" that way.

As I said, I haven't read the novels leading up to this, and of course I haven't read Traviss's upcoming book yet. However, something about her basic reasoning here seems wrong to me.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-22 10:59am

"You have to remember that real life people aren't 100% consistent. You're not exactly the same person today as you were yesterday. We don't have to write the character identically in order to be consistent. or instance, in Bloodlines, Karen has a much better ear for Leia at her snarkiest than I do. You will read Karen's Leia and it will be Leia at her most cutting."

Leia's "walking carpet" "would I help if I got out and pushed" type comments were great, and I'd have no problem with that kind of thing. It's when this is spin, like B&B talking about their critics by mentioning guys who write in about phasers coming out of the torpedo tube, that it gets annoying.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-22 11:48am

Oh, wonderful. We might be getting author self-insertion out of this.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-07-22 12:02pm

Ender wrote:+http://blogs.starwars.com/pablog/86

Allston is already warning people about the characterizations in KT's work, and there are two more "Republic Commando" books coming out.

Doesn't look like Traviss is writing them.

From her LiveJournal: (Quick! Read before its deleted!)

Date: 2006-07-22 07:49
Subject: Oya!
Security: Public
Mood: Chin-strapped

The lads are back.

For those of you who didn't catch the news at Comic Con,there will be two more Republic Commando sequels. RC3 (title TBA) is scheduled for summer 2007 but there's no date for RC4 yet.

In other news, I was made an honorary member of the 501st tonight, much fun was had with chaps in armour and out of it, and vigorous discussion took place with costuming folk about exactly what female Mandalorians might wear.

If I sound subdued, it's because I'm so knackered I can hardly move. Tomorrow is another full day. More later.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-07-22 12:04pm

VT-16 wrote:Oh, wonderful. We might be getting author self-insertion out of this.

LEIA: Han! You death-threat making mysoginist! If your dick'oa was any smaller, I'd need macrobinoculars to see it!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-22 12:21pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Ender wrote:+http://blogs.starwars.com/pablog/86

Allston is already warning people about the characterizations in KT's work, and there are two more "Republic Commando" books coming out.
Doesn't look like Traviss is writing them.

From her LiveJournal: (Quick! Read before its deleted!)

Date: 2006-07-22 07:49
Subject: Oya!
Security: Public
Mood: Chin-strapped

The lads are back.

For those of you who didn't catch the news at Comic Con,there will be two more Republic Commando sequels. RC3 (title TBA) is scheduled for summer 2007 but there's no date for RC4 yet.

In other news, I was made an honorary member of the 501st tonight, much fun was had with chaps in armour and out of it, and vigorous discussion took place with costuming folk about exactly what female Mandalorians might wear.

If I sound subdued, it's because I'm so knackered I can hardly move. Tomorrow is another full day. More later.

That she didn't cheerlead the crap out of it is interesing, but doens't mean anything in and of itself. She might have just kept the entry short because it was late or there were other demands on her time.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-07-22 02:02pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Ender wrote:+http://blogs.starwars.com/pablog/86

Allston is already warning people about the characterizations in KT's work, and there are two more "Republic Commando" books coming out.
Doesn't look like Traviss is writing them.

From her LiveJournal: (Quick! Read before its deleted!)

Date: 2006-07-22 07:49
Subject: Oya!
Security: Public
Mood: Chin-strapped

The lads are back.

For those of you who didn't catch the news at Comic Con,there will be two more Republic Commando sequels. RC3 (title TBA) is scheduled for summer 2007 but there's no date for RC4 yet.

In other news, I was made an honorary member of the 501st tonight, much fun was had with chaps in armour and out of it, and vigorous discussion took place with costuming folk about exactly what female Mandalorians might wear.

If I sound subdued, it's because I'm so knackered I can hardly move. Tomorrow is another full day. More later.

Hopefully Licensing will keep her from the RC series so that it'll possible to fix the blunder. Oh, and to keep the Mandalor... erm, Mando'a at the bare minimum.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-07-23 01:57am

Jim Raynor wrote: WTF? People have different personalities, leanings, and a limited view of what happens around them. That's what causes different POV. But if this novel is being written in third person (like every other one is), isn't it from the "POV" of an objective, omniscient narrator? If Leia's quotes are bitchy, and there's no good in-universe reason to explain this behavior, then she is being a bitch. Not just because she's being "viewed" that way.

As I said, I haven't read the novels leading up to this, and of course I haven't read Traviss's upcoming book yet. However, something about her basic reasoning here seems wrong to me.

Ok, I think you're reading too much into this. What Allston is saying is that the authors have to write a character based on what THEY think is the character, and it may not jive with what WE think is the character.

Which is utterly correct. Even our perceptions of a character from one time to another may differ and our gestalt of it will certainly differ from others.

The only way to avoid this is to create a story and universe that is engaging enough ,allowing the reader to shift past this perception problem.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2006-07-25 07:17pm

Karen Traviss wrote: "Why did the Mandalorians side with the Yuuzhan Vong? What were they thinking? They're not stupid, they had to have their reasons, and that was the gap I wanted to fill. It's actually not what it seems. And the title, A Practical Man, is a reference to an obscure song that I'm not very sure few people would have heard in the UK. It's about sticking to what you believe."

WTF? Fett's people were not allied with the Yuuzhan Vong. Does anyone have any information regarding this matter or is Traviss just way too dumb to read "The Unifying Force" correctly?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2006-07-25 07:34pm

Thanas wrote:
Karen Traviss wrote: "Why did the Mandalorians side with the Yuuzhan Vong? What were they thinking? They're not stupid, they had to have their reasons, and that was the gap I wanted to fill. It's actually not what it seems. And the title, A Practical Man, is a reference to an obscure song that I'm not very sure few people would have heard in the UK. It's about sticking to what you believe."
WTF? Fett's people were not allied with the Yuuzhan Vong. Does anyone have any information regarding this matter or is Traviss just way too dumb to read "The Unifying Force" correctly?

You forget that she doesn't feel its necessary to read other SW books in the first place. She probably heard that the Mandalorians showed up at some point in the NJO, and leapt to the conclusion that they had been on the Vong side.

But maybe I'm wrong,and she actually intends to put out a story correcting the works of others so that CSI couldn't put the original back together from the filth she inflicts on us.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-07-25 07:58pm

Devils' Advocate:

I can't remember if it was in SW Tales or Visionaries, but there is a story that supports Fett supporting the YV. However, due to the title of the publication. I doubted its canonicity. Story goes like this:

At some Point after Chewies Death, Han Solo encounters Boba Fett on a planet and ends up crashing in a wasteland, where he thinks he is fighitng Boba Fett, but these turn out to be Fett's adepts in Mandalorian-style armor. Fett goes on to say before leaving Han stranded something along the lines of "The Vong having all of the galaxy's credits".

If anyone else rmeembers this please feel free to elaborate, i'll scour my brothers archives for it later.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2006-07-25 09:21pm

Even if Fett worked for the Vong, he did not do so by the time of TUF. In fact, he was killing Vong left and right. So even if he did work for the vong some time, he clearly became their enemy in TUF. I do not think an explanation for that change is necessary.

Besides, if Solo saw Fett fight the Vong in TUF, why didn't he have a WTF moment at this change of colours?

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-07-25 10:57pm

Does anyone have a general page or something where a timeline and history of this entire insanity can be found?

Phil Skayhan · Post by **Phil Skayhan** » 2006-07-25 11:10pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Does anyone have a general page or something where a timeline and history of this entire insanity can be found?

What? If it's the flamewar with Traviss, I have a history on my site; incomplete, but it covers the highlights.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-07-26 03:04am

Holy crap! Are the "official" pictures of Traviss from 30 years ago? Here she is with Troy Denning and Aaron Allston at Comic Con '06:

She looks like her cheeks are caught in a wind tunnel.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2006-07-26 05:28am

Laura Roslin really let herself go.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-26 07:37am

Lord Poe wrote:Holy crap! Are the "official" pictures of Traviss from 30 years ago? Here she is with Troy Denning and Aaron Allston at Comic Con '06:

I was wondering when somebody else would point this out. Seriously, that she looks nothing like this image on her official site. Bad picture, or did she completely let herself go in the last few years?

But we shouldn't talk about her looks this way, Poe. We're being misogynists!

EDIT: Removed large image. Also, click on "Real Life" at her site to see the picture I'm talking about.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-26 08:14am

Jim Raynor wrote:But we shouldn't talk about her looks this way, Poe. We're being misogynists!

Well lets be fair - most people at conventions do look like ass when their pictures are taken. Over on PVP the shot of Frank Miller makes him look like Jed Clampett from the Beverly Hillbillies, and the one of Gates McFadden from the caption thread looked like some kind of creature out of mythology. When a pro photographer takes a picture, they're going to make you look good, since that's their job.

If KT looked like Liv Tyler, it wouldn't change anything - it's her remarks and attitude that's the problem.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-26 09:18am

Sonnenburg wrote:If KT looked like Liv Tyler, it wouldn't change anything - it's her remarks and attitude that's the problem.

Agreed. In the end, I don't give a damn how she looks, she's still a bitch. I normally wouldn't even talk about her looks, but Traviss doesn't have my respect.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-07-26 09:29am

Let's not clog the thread with tangents like this- the issue has been discussed and especially with the release of the NeGD her idiotic retcon has been consigned to the dustbin. Let's save the thread for new developments.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-07-26 11:05am

Vympel wrote:Let's not clog the thread with tangents like this- the issue has been discussed and especially with the release of the NeGD her idiotic retcon has been consigned to the dustbin. Let's save the thread for new developments.

NeGD = New Essential Guide to Droids?

I have not seen that yet. What does it say that shoots her down?

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-07-26 11:20am

Vympel wrote:Let's not clog the thread with tangents like this- the issue has been discussed and especially with the release of the NeGD her idiotic retcon has been consigned to the dustbin. Let's save the thread for new developments.

Sorry, I'm a little out of the loop.. so the New Essential Guide to Droids has blown her low droid numbers out of the water? Excellent.
What sort of numbers exactly does the NeGD give for the CIS army?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-26 12:05pm

Cykeisme wrote:
Vympel wrote:Let's not clog the thread with tangents like this- the issue has been discussed and especially with the release of the NeGD her idiotic retcon has been consigned to the dustbin. Let's save the thread for new developments.
Sorry, I'm a little out of the loop.. so the New Essential Guide to Droids has blown her low droid numbers out of the water? Excellent.
What sort of numbers exactly does the NeGD give for the CIS army?

Ender starts a little discussion on it beginning at the end of this page. Essentially, the NEGtD references massive numbers of high-yield droid factories, and hundreds of thousands of droids being stationed at single locations, things like that. No hard numbers on the total size, but the implications are quite clear.

As a side note, the book is actually worth picking up otherwise; it reads better than most of the other EGs, and has a lot of interesting retecons and facts in it (like, for example, establishing the Jedi Exile of KOTOR 2 as being female).