De-cannonize the EU.

[Havok]

Google. I was wondering, while I was doing dishes, why Luke Skywalker didn't just Google Anakin Skywalker after the events of ESB, connect the dots, and figure out who his mother was and save me the trouble of having to read countless crappy stories about him trying to figure it out. Which, of course led my mind through its convoluted way of thinking back to the one thought I routinely have whenever I pick up an EU source: "This is NOT how this would have happened."

Ok to my point. Why can't the EU, now that the entire movie saga has unfolded, be restarted? Is this a realistic idea? Doesn't D.C. do it like every 20 years to depower Superman? Didn't GL rewrite parts of his movies, the ultimate cannon source, to have them make more sense or just because he didn't like them originally?

I'm not saying wipe everything from official record, just the stories. I like the characters for the most part. The technology is fine with me, but man... some of the stories.

It seems to me that quite a few stories would have been written so much differently, not necessarily better, if the authors had all six movies to view instead of 3, or 4 or even 5. The foundations of the EU were established during a time when we had a relatively "small" view of the overall SW galaxy and I think that the stories reflect that in the way that they are also "small", or not really expanding out into what they could be.

A couple things that bug me.

1.Luke not haulin' ass straight to the Jedi Temple after the 2nd DS was destroyed.

2.Dark Empire. Anakin was the Chosen one who was supposed to destroy the Sith. He did. They are dead. That's it. Although entertaining, I think it completely cheapens the character and his story. Plus reborn Palpatine...

I could go on, but I want to know what the rest of you think. Yea or Nay? Is it possible? How could it be done? Should I just drown myself next time I'm doing dishes? What do ya think?

[Tychu]

For One thing
Though there are riots in Coruscant that doesnt mean the fall of the Imperial Rule on Coruscant. The reason why Luke didnt haul ass to the Jedi Temple was because it took about another 5 years for the Rebellion to take control of the damn planet. In that time a many number of things could have happend to files and such. When Luke finally was able to get there lo and behold he used some of the knowledge he was able to find and make his own jedi temple.

As Lucas points or writes in his movies (The highest level of cannon) The Jedi are seen (yoda especially with Windu) thinking maby infact they read the prophecy wrong (Episode III) if you dont believe me. Anakin was not the chosen one im sorry he just wasn't. He was created by the force but not the chosen one that the Jedi originally read from the prophecy. Lucas also gave us some hints into Palpatines little plan for the future. He always planned to rule forever and forever. He wasnt just joking about his master knowing how to cheat death, He figured out a way and that cames to fruition in the Dark Empire series

Also No more than a handfull of people knew Anakin was Darth Vader. Therefore Luke cant go around and google his father and find on StarGoogle that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader. He cant go to his myspace and see his daddys pictures. Besides like 4 people knowing who Darth Vader is the Imperial government will probally block that information.

[Shadowtraveler]

Can't say it'll ever happen but personally...I wouldn't mind completely restarting the NR era onwards. They should probally keep the whole "Mon Mothma=tyrant" thing, just to amuse Consequences, but many of the authors who wrote NR era books should never be asked to again. Ever. This is Star Wars, guys. There should be interesting stories, not formulatic writing.

And perhaps focus on new characters. Nice, simple, non-wanked characters.

[Havok]

You kinda helped my point a little. The reason we think it took 5 years to get Coruscant back is because it was written in the EU. In a comic book, Dark Empire I believe, that shows the two opposing forces fighting on dirt. Not alot of that on Coruscant.

And as Palpatine clearly states in ROTS "I am the senate!" Which Mace seems to agree with. Stands to reason he is also the Empire and without him it would be just another mass of buerocracy.

Lucas himself states that Anakin IS the chosen one. whether or not he was the Jedi's Chosen one doesn't matter. He was the Chosen one to bring balance to the Force.

Palpatine also says that "To cheat death is a power that only one has achieved." And with out the current EU, we wouldn't have any source that says that he ever achieved. Based on JUST the movies, I'd say he didn't.

After ESB, Luke already knows that Vader is his father. You have seen the movie right?
Anakin was anincredibly famous figure though and once he knew that was his father he could get all the info about the Jedi and "search his feelings" and figure out who his mother was, who was who I was talking about in the first place.

Back to my point. Would you think it was a good or bad idea to do it? Would it make things better? Or again, should I just drown myself?

[Ghost Rider]

To restart the entire EU would be pointless given a simple fact. It makes money for LFL. All the rest that it doesn't fit this or that is akin to going "So with such movie out about said character, why doesn't DC or Marvel start from there?"

Same reason.

[Noble Ire]

You kinda helped my point a little. The reason we think it took 5 years to get Coruscant back is because it was written in the EU. In a comic book, Dark Empire I believe, that shows the two opposing forces fighting on dirt. Not alot of that on Coruscant.

Putting aside the fact that the recapture is detailed in more sources than just DE, the Rebellion (or New Republic) taking a long time to retake Coruscant makes perfect sense. The Alliance was vastly, vastly inferior to the Empire militarily, and it would take years of civil war amongst warlords to weaken it enough for them to realistically take the capitol, even taking into consideration more ships and worlds rallying to the Rebel cause.

And as Palpatine clearly states in ROTS "I am the senate!" Which Mace seems to agree with. Stands to reason he is also the Empire and without him it would be just another mass of buerocracy.

In the EU, the Empire begins to fall apart almost immediately. I'm not seeing your problem.


As to your main idea, though I wouldn't mind a overhaul or purging of specific sources (and yes, DE is among them), the idea of scrapping the entire thing is objectionable, both because I think its unnecissary, and because any new material that would take the palce of the old would likely simply be slightly different iterations of existing EU. Now, if you were to hire some really talented authors (of which there are few in LFL's employ) to do it, perhaps, but otherwise, it would be a waste.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

(and yes, DE is among them)

You're dead to me.

[Noble Ire]

(and yes, DE is among them)

You're dead to me.

I didn't say I wanted it purged specifically, just that it could do with some... modification. I like the comics themselves, but they are rather hard to reconcile, even if it has been done.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Reconcile with what? Anyway, the only sensible approach in my opinion is blanket removal.

Of course I would also go with removing everything after the Bantam-novel run and removing everything before the prequel novels.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

They should've shit-canned all of the stuff that happened after Luke and Leia handed Palpatine his ass aboard the Eclipse. Basically, just keep Dark Empire I.

[Illuminatus Primus]

They should've shit-canned all of the stuff that happened after Luke and Leia handed Palpatine his ass aboard the Eclipse. Basically, just keep Dark Empire I.

Yeah, if there was an extended storyline so Palpy didn't go down like a chump in a third the time it took them to get Thrawn, it should've all been leading up to that.

[Tychu]

For me the definitive version of the taking of Coruscant was in the X-Wing novels.

The Rebels took Coruscant before Dark Empire I. Dark Empire features the Empire trying to take it back.

Do yourself a favor read the X-Wing novels and you'll get your answer why it took the NR 5 years. To me its very believeable. Grand Empires don't fall apart when a major battle happens at the outskirts of its territories.

For your Luke knowing his father thing
Again only a handfull of people knew that Anakin Skywalker = Darth Vader
and out of that handfull about 3 people knew about Anakin and Padme. By the time Luke would have cared to look for his mother (ROTJ and he would look after the battle of Endor) 2 out of the 3 of these people died and the other was dead for 3 years now. How would you have Luke find his mother.
Read the EU and you'll see that after about 8 years of searching he comes across a lady that says that she knows Lukes mother. this turns to be a farce and Luke gives up. I personally wouldnt go searching again if i was played for that chump game

[VT-16]

You kinda helped my point a little. The reason we think it took 5 years to get Coruscant back is because it was written in the EU.

It took 2 1/2 years, actually. And the Rebellion-turned-Republic needed that time to build up their forces and push towards the Core. It actually makes sense, since the Rebels were ridiculously outnumbered prior to Endor. Even Lucas said it wasn't believable for them to hit the Imperial capital in ROTJ (although it's probably another retcon reason on his part why they didn't film it :P)

In a comic book, Dark Empire I believe, that shows the two opposing forces fighting on dirt. Not alot of that on Coruscant.

Nope, not in my comic. They're on metal ground strewn with debris.

And as Palpatine clearly states in ROTS "I am the senate!" Which Mace seems to agree with.

"Not yet", remember?

Stands to reason he is also the Empire and without him it would be just another mass of buerocracy.

"The Regional Governors now have direct control of their systems."
"Don't get jittery, Luke, there are alot of command ships."
Effectively means they're gonna try and carve out their piece of the galaxy without a central leadership and have the firepower to enforce their rule. And that's what happened.

Palpatine also says that "To cheat death is a power that only one has achieved." And with out the current EU, we wouldn't have any source that says that he ever achieved. Based on JUST the movies, I'd say he didn't.

Well, for me, I've always thought Palpatine's death in ROTJ is a pretty good indication he never really disappeared. That screaming and wailing goes on for a while even after he "explodes". :P

Anakin was anincredibly famous figure though and once he knew that was his father he could get all the info about the Jedi and "search his feelings" and figure out who his mother was, who was who I was talking about in the first place.

Since there's no known records of Anakin and Padme's relationship anywhere, that we see in the movies or the EU, (barring R2's recordings, which he never brought up willingly), that would be pretty hard, which we see in post-ROTJ EU.

My beef with the EU isn't necessarily the plots, it's the execution.

[FTeik]

I'm also hesitant to de-canonize the current EU and replace it with something else.

First we don't know, if what we would get would really be better and as a second, if we have such a massive de-canonisation once we can have it again.

[Lazarus]

I'm generally in favour of the EU, but I do agree that it has become something of a badly tangled, contradictory mess, mostly due to the new films coming out. Starting all over again is a completely ridiculous idea, not to mention offensive to the authors who have worked so hard to widen the SW universe to its current status. However, perhaps some effort should be made to untangle some of the more confusing parts, a re-jigging of the canon level of some sources for example.

For me, DE is a terrible comic, the entire storyline is like something a 10 year old fanboy would come up with, and its whole scope seems set in an entirely different world. Even the artwork is appalling, monochrome crap for the most part. Consequently, I'd suggest that for a source such as this, a synopsis be created which fits in more realistically with the rest of the universe, which retains the original canon level, whilst the comics themselves are lowered.

[Stark]

What they need to do is get someone like Publius to rejig the whole damn mess. The EU can be made to not suck, even with all the garbage it contains, if someone intelligent syntheses it.

[FTeik]

I'm generally in favour of the EU, but I do agree that it has become something of a badly tangled, contradictory mess, mostly due to the new films coming out. Starting all over again is a completely ridiculous idea, not to mention offensive to the authors who have worked so hard to widen the SW universe to its current status. However, perhaps some effort should be made to untangle some of the more confusing parts, a re-jigging of the canon level of some sources for example.

For me, DE is a terrible comic, the entire storyline is like something a 10 year old fanboy would come up with, and its whole scope seems set in an entirely different world. Even the artwork is appalling, monochrome crap for the most part. Consequently, I'd suggest that for a source such as this, a synopsis be created which fits in more realistically with the rest of the universe, which retains the original canon level, whilst the comics themselves are lowered.

Problem is, scope-wise DE is a lot closer to the movies than almost anything else in the EU. The difference in scope is one of the reasons so many of us don't like the EU very much.

[General Soontir Fel]

I am against the idea for a few reasons, but the chief is that there'll be endless debates whether the "Old" EU is better than the "New" EU (sort of like the PT vs. OT debates, but a lot more vehement, because of fanboys of specific pieces of EU. Also, if Lucasfilm makes such a move, it'll be difficult to attract authors--certainly none of the authors who already wrote will touch it, having their work declared non-canon by fiat. This is likely to make the new EU worse, not better.

[VT-16]

That made me wonder, what makes the ST authors tick? After all, their work is non-canon by default. Pretty bleak prospect.

[Keevan_Colton]

That made me wonder, what makes the ST authors tick? After all, their work is non-canon by default. Pretty bleak prospect.

Money.

[Ghost Rider]

That made me wonder, what makes the ST authors tick? After all, their work is non-canon by default. Pretty bleak prospect.

Which is why people like Peter David and such not usually go for telling of stories that are rarely ever touched in ST. It's both staggering to think your work won't count, but at that same token you can do whatever the fuck you want.

[General Soontir Fel]

That made me wonder, what makes the ST authors tick? After all, their work is non-canon by default. Pretty bleak prospect.

Not really. Besides the money, it's the same motivation why anyone writes fanfiction, since that's what these books are. And I believe SW EU is the same... I mean, which of us wouldn't jump at a chance to get our fanfiction published?

[Shadowtraveler]

I am against the idea for a few reasons, but the chief is that there'll be endless debates whether the "Old" EU is better than the "New" EU (sort of like the PT vs. OT debates, but a lot more vehement, because of fanboys of specific pieces of EU. Also, if Lucasfilm makes such a move, it'll be difficult to attract authors--certainly none of the authors who already wrote will touch it, having their work declared non-canon by fiat. This is likely to make the new EU worse, not better.

Come now. Surely you're not saying some people will prefer The Crystal Star and the Children of the Jedi Trilogy over whatever new stuff they'll have to replace it.

[General Soontir Fel]

I am against the idea for a few reasons, but the chief is that there'll be endless debates whether the "Old" EU is better than the "New" EU (sort of like the PT vs. OT debates, but a lot more vehement, because of fanboys of specific pieces of EU. Also, if Lucasfilm makes such a move, it'll be difficult to attract authors--certainly none of the authors who already wrote will touch it, having their work declared non-canon by fiat. This is likely to make the new EU worse, not better.

Come now. Surely you're not saying some people will prefer The Crystal Star and the Children of the Jedi Trilogy over whatever new stuff they'll have to replace it.

First of all, yes, it can be worse. Second of all, there are KJA fanboys (especially concerning the Young Jedi Knights series which he coauthored with his wife, Rebecca Moesta, and which leans heavily on background he used in the Jedi Academy trilogy). I don't know of any The Crystal Star or The New Rebellion fanboys (they certainly exist for The Courtship of Princess Leia), but they are likely to exist in small numbers.

But my point was, that there's very little chance that we'll have something better then the Thrawn Trilogy, the HoT duology, Star by Star, Destiny's Way, and Labyrinth of Evil. And this is why I oppose scraping the EU: because I don't want that thrown out. And we can't be selective, either, keeping what we like--again, due to the fact that everyone that likes different things, and even greater feelings of betrayal on the part of authors who get scrapped.

And what if EU 2.0 does end up worse than what we have? Do we scrap it again? How many times should that be done?

And, Karen Traviss aside, the more recent EU is better than what we've had for some time. Even the Dark Nest trilogy is not an abomination on the scale of The Crystal Star, The New Rebellion, or the middle book of the Force Heretic trilogy.

On the other hand... I have been reading the old Marvel comics series recently... and they are stupid, especially considering what we know now. So yes, there is a point to knowing more movies... but as for me personally, the EU and movie canon are already intertwined in my head, and I simply can't imagine a SW universe in which Mara Jade, Gilad Pellaeon, Talon Karrde, Kyle Katarn, Siri Tachi, Ysanne Isard, Grand Admiral Thrawn, Borsk Fey'lya, Soontir Fel, Assaj Ventress, the Z-95 Headhunter, Ruusan, Ithor, Borleais, the 181st Imperial TIE fighter Group, and the Lady Luck do not exist. Sorry. I won't buy (in all senses of the word) anything that pretends to erase those things from SW.

[Batman]

I am against the idea for a few reasons, but the chief is that there'll be endless debates whether the "Old" EU is better than the "New" EU (sort of like the PT vs. OT debates, but a lot more vehement, because of fanboys of specific pieces of EU. Also, if Lucasfilm makes such a move, it'll be difficult to attract authors--certainly none of the authors who already wrote will touch it, having their work declared non-canon by fiat. This is likely to make the new EU worse, not better.

Come now. Surely you're not saying some people will prefer The Crystal Star and the Children of the Jedi Trilogy over whatever new stuff they'll have to replace it.

No, but some people will prefer TTT, the Wraith Squadron books and Spectre/Vision over the new stuff (especially if the new stuff is JAT/Crystal Star quality). The orignal idea was to decanonize the entire EU, remember?
Decononizing parts of it I would agree with (I can certainly live without The Crystal Star and the whole NJO shit), assuming it could be done.