Faith healers and their victims

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mr friendly guy
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Faith healers and their victims

Post by mr friendly guy »

Ok I am currently reading a book by magician James Randi called "The faith healers". In it he talks about televangelists who claim to have healing powers from God, and naturally after people "donate" a large sum of money.

Among them include
Oral Roberts
Jim Bakker
Pat Robertson
Peter Popoff
W.V. Grant

Randi mentions the various tricks they used, such as

1) hiring wheelchairs and having people who could walk sit in them, so when said healers asks them to stand up it looks like they are healed

2) having staff members talk to potential "healees" prior, and telling the faith healer prior to the show, so that it looks like the faith healer got the revelation about details from God. One of them Peter Popoff had an ear piece with details being sent to it electronically.

3) Making a shorten leg grow longer by a) telling a patient they had shorten legs when the patient didn't even realise it, or b) using loose fitting shoes, so they can push the shoe back in one leg, making it look like the other ("shorten") leg grew longer.

Note : A particular funny case was of an Evelyne Green who was healed by W.V. Grant of a shorten leg (which was supposedly secondary to a back problem that she never knew she had). Any way Grant tried the same healing trick on her years later, and she finally realised that if he lengthen her leg again, wouldn't she now have one leg longer? The fact that it took Green a second time to know something was up despite the fact she had never observed herself having a shorten leg should give you an idea of the intelligence of these people.

4) Deliberately confusing the terms legally blind and fully blind. That is those who are legally blind can still make out a few details, such as number of fingers being held up. So when this "fully blind" person magically can see the number of fingers held up by the faith healer (as they always can) it makes it look like they have been cured.

I recommend this book. I really like how they had a man dressed up as a woman and was healed of uterine cancer by a faith healer.

However that wasn't the main point I wanted to raise in this thread. I want to particularly talk about their victims.

In short I can't bring myself to empathise with them much. Is this wrong? Let me extend it.

I will describe which particular victims I find it hard to empathise with. These are the victims who still believe they got something. There is another class of victim I will talk about.

Case one - an elderly woman and her daughters. The mother was "healed" by a faith healer who promptly broke her walking stick in a theatrical show which would make Shakespheare proud. The woman was now afraid to walk without her stick but she and her daughters still felt the healing was successful

Case two - a man who felt he was healed of his diabetes, even though he still continued to take insulin

Case three - I think I will just retype excerpts from the book which was broadcast on CBS-TV's news program "West 57th" in 1986. It sums up the mentality better than I could
Host : Now, I saw you get up out of a wheel chair. Was that a miracle?

Woman : Not exactly, because I wasn't crippled - I wasn't completely crippled, but I - I only got difficulty to walk and so far I think I feel much better.

Host : You mean whose wheelchair was that, that you got out of?

Woman : that was from here. I didn't come here with - no.

Host : Do you own a wheelchair?

Woman : No.

Host : That's not your wheelchair?

Woman : No.

Host : Don't you think its kind of funny that you come here, sit in a wheelchair, and then he makes a big deal of getting you out of a wheelchair that you don't even own?

Woman : I- I can't tell you. I believe in miracles anyway.Now I pray for this and I believe.
To get into the possible mindest of such people, I will quote from one of W.V. Grant's stage hand John Le Blanc
The whole thinngs is money. Some people just want to be taken. It seems like they like to be taken
When I saw all these people doing all these crazy things, it just hit me. These people - they don't care! They're looking for something. They're looking for someone to guide them, to show them the way. I don't know what they're looking for. They don't know what they're looking for. And you just can't talk to them!
The old saying goes, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice (by the same method) shame on me. This is of course, ignoring the fact that they shouldn't have been fooled in the first place.

To sum up the reasons why people have such gullibility
1) the want to be tricked (because their need to believe is so strong).

2) they really are this stupid (without a desire to be tricked)

Point 1 is easy to justify why I shouldn't feel sympathy. If its what they "really want", then its their right to do stupid things.

Point 2 I can argue along the same lines as why we laugh at people dying in the Darwin awards.

To me, being tricked by such an obvious scam in terms magnitude of idiocy doesn't seem to be much different in magnitude than say in the Darwin awards. In the case of the Darwin awards, we laugh at the stupidity of such people. Why should we not laugh at the stupidity of these people buying into faith healers? The only difference is that there is fraud involved, in which case the faith healer should be charged.


The other class of victims, are the ones who realise they had been had and do sue the faith healer.

To quote from the wiki article on Jim Bakker (who was later convicted)
On July 23, 1996, a North Carolina jury threw out a class action suit brought on behalf of more than 160,000 onetime believers who contributed as much as $7,000 each to Bakker's coffers in the 1980s.
I guess I can empathise with these victims more than the previous group. However I still find it hard to do so. Personally if they won or lost the law suit, it wouldn't make difference to my sense of outrage because I see them as partially responsible for the consequences. To me this seems no different that smokers suing cigarette companies.

To elaborate a bit more, I don't have a problem with smokers who started smoking way before the dangers of smoking were well known suing. Whether they would still have made the same choice is hard to say, however the fact is they didn't have all available facts to make an informed decision. However in this day and age, where cigarette packaging says in big words "Smoking kills" there is no excuse. You have the information, you made the wrong decision (and a bleeding obvious one at that).

The same applies to these people who flock to faith healers.

You can observe that faith healers only have anecdotal evidence.

You can observe that you gave your details to others prior to the performance, and thus reason that it is possible that they in turn gave it to the preacher. Occam's razor certainly suggests this explanation over a supernatural one (even if you believed in a supernatural explanation which gives the preacher divine revelation).

You can reason that there is no way to demonstrate whether someone has been healed without knowing what they had in the first place (especially with people who were suddenly told they had disease x which doctors never noticed before).

In short, if they are mentally competent (ie not suffering from some mental illness) they have no excuse for their poor judgment and thus not deserving of a lot of sympathy.
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Post by Fire Fly »

There is a video clip, of older orgins, on youtube that shows Randi exposing a faith healer by the name of Peter Popoff. (Link)

There is no dissuading those who will not be reasoned with. These infermed people went to these faith healers not with an open mind but with a sense of desperation glued by a deep religous fervor.
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Post by Azrael »

Oral Roberts
Is still the Worst. Preacher. Name. EVAAR!!! Just what mixture of sexual repression and stupidity does it take not to realize the obvious error in naming your kid "Oral"? Plus the fact that he grew up to be a minister is too good for hollywood. Oh well, I suppose it's better than Apple, but still worse than Kal'el. [/offtopic]

Yeah, faith healers are assholes, to be sure. I remember a chatroom I frequented described the paitents of faith healers dying as a form of natural selection. :twisted:

Don't feel bad for not sympathizing with these buffons, Mr. friendly guy. Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Azrael wrote:Don't feel bad for not sympathizing with these buffons, Mr. friendly guy. Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
Or a broken educational system, in which case they do deserve sympathy. That radical religionism (with attendant evils such as faith quackery) being on the march should be cause for concern.
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Post by Setzer »

Anyone see that Pastor Gas video starring Robert Tilton? It's hilarious. The only problem is they didn't get any footage of him claiming he was the pope, or that rats were eating his brain. :)
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Lord Zentei wrote:
Azrael wrote:Don't feel bad for not sympathizing with these buffons, Mr. friendly guy. Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
Or a broken educational system, in which case they do deserve sympathy. That radical religionism (with attendant evils such as faith quackery) being on the march should be cause for concern.
The thing is, what and how much of a bad decision is due to poor education vs stupidity. I can feel sympathy for Africans being deceived by the RCC's anti condom propaganda. To make an inform decision whether "condoms kill" requires facts about condom's effectiveness. In that case the problem is with a lack of knowledge and ignorance rather than stupidity.

As I explained in the OP, I think a lot of their flaws in their decision making is in their reasoning. And while you can argue that if we were taught logic in schools we would be less likely to fall for this, some of it is so bleeding obvious that I have to wonder, do you need to have formal education to see through it. I certainly didn't know the name of various logical fallacies, but even as a child it was obvious to me why such arguments didn't make sense.
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Post by Dominus Atheos »

I don't quite understand trick #3. :?
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Dominus Atheos wrote:I don't quite understand trick #3. :?
They first convince people they have a shorten leg. Yes I know its hard to believe especially when they don't. Presumably he didn't have to do much she such a person never had a shorten leg in the first place, so the finish result would be two legs of equal length.

Another method is to have a plant with the "shorten" leg.

Essentially how it works is that you view the legs from side on. One leg looks slightly longer than the other, but it really they just have loose fitting shoes, say cowboy boots which are better suited for this purpose. The inside base of the shoe is not actually touching the sole of the foot.

So the "shorten" leg is actually normal (ie the inside base of the shoe is touching the sole) and the "normal" leg is actually "longer" or rather looks that way because of the loose fitting shoes.

When the faith healer "lengthens" the shorter leg, he is actually pushing the loose shoe back, so that the base of the shoe is now actually touching the sole of the foot. In effect, he is making the longer foot the same length as the normal foot, so that both feet look the same. (He can also do the opposite by having loosening the shoes on the other foot to make it longer).

Looking at before and after photographs, the faith healer is grabbing both legs at the same time, so it may not be obvious that his attentions are focused on the wrong leg. However by looking at the photographs and lining them up one another the other and drawing a line superiorly along the sole of the shoe (of the shorten leg), you can see the leg hasn't lenghten. What you can see is that the other leg has shorten.
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Post by Broomstick »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:
Azrael wrote:Don't feel bad for not sympathizing with these buffons, Mr. friendly guy. Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
Or a broken educational system, in which case they do deserve sympathy. That radical religionism (with attendant evils such as faith quackery) being on the march should be cause for concern.
The thing is, what and how much of a bad decision is due to poor education vs stupidity. I can feel sympathy for Africans being deceived by the RCC's anti condom propaganda. To make an inform decision whether "condoms kill" requires facts about condom's effectiveness. In that case the problem is with a lack of knowledge and ignorance rather than stupidity.

As I explained in the OP, I think a lot of their flaws in their decision making is in their reasoning. And while you can argue that if we were taught logic in schools we would be less likely to fall for this, some of it is so bleeding obvious that I have to wonder, do you need to have formal education to see through it. I certainly didn't know the name of various logical fallacies, but even as a child it was obvious to me why such arguments didn't make sense.
You need only look to some of my in-laws to realize African-level ignorance exists in the US (along with pockets in other parts of the Western world)

Appalacia has long had a reputation for ignorance and poverty. Among the in-laws there are some educated and successful folks, but there are also many who never had adequate schooling. It was only a generation ago that literacy was considered optional for women and being unable to read no shame for a man, and keeping a kid in school long enough to graduate an indulgence that would make young men soft and fill young women's heads with useless notions and unrealistic ideas of their worth. Generations of people with no schooling beyond 2-6 years of primary/elementary education at most. In such a context, conventional medicine is just as mysterious and magical as faith healing - but faith healing costs a lot less. You're talking about people ruled by superstition and religion, not logic and science.

Which is why it's no surprise that faith healers do well in Appalacia. And in the Deep South, where similar social symptoms manifest as well.

Fortunately, among the in-laws the trend is towards more education - but it hasn't been easy. The parents never finished school and feel they've done alright (even if they haven't) and see no reason for their children to be indulged. It's the enforcement of truancy laws that has resulted in more kids getting even a minimally adequate education, and even so, there is a tendency to pull the kids out of high school and have them take a GED instead of "wasting" a few more years in class. The next generation after this will, I hope, be in a much better position but these problems are not corrected quickly.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Azrael wrote:
Oral Roberts
Is still the Worst. Preacher. Name. EVAAR!!! Just what mixture of sexual repression and stupidity does it take not to realize the obvious error in naming your kid "Oral"? Plus the fact that he grew up to be a minister is too good for hollywood. Oh well, I suppose it's better than Apple, but still worse than Kal'el.
Well he was actually born Granville Roberts. I guess Oral sounds better than Granville any day of the week. On another note, I don't have that much reservation about Ka El, (being a comic book geek and all). I just snigger at Nicholas Cage for naming his son that. :P
Don't feel bad for not sympathizing with these buffons, Mr. friendly guy. Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
Oh good. For a moment I thought I was a heartless bastard.
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Post by Azrael »

Or a broken educational system, in which case they do deserve sympathy.
If they were taking math or reading tests or asked about the basics of science and failed, then they'd garner some sympathy from me. A broken education system won't teach you these, even though it's supposed to and it's retarded expecting people to pass with flying colors even though school didn't teach them shit.

But this isn't math class. These people are being conned and are willfully allowing it to happen! Like that guy I saw on ABCs "America" series they did a few years back. This man had a degree in Nuclear Physics, and yet he seemed to think that bones found on the ground today are the same as petrified dinosaur bones found in the ground, thus conclusively proving that evolution was a lie. (Yeah, yeah I know... :roll:)

If being that well educated won't protect you from choosing that level of stupidity, then nothing will. There's a fine difference in being ignorant and being stupid and it is a difference of will. I reiterate: Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Azrael wrote:But this isn't math class. These people are being conned and are willfully allowing it to happen! Like that guy I saw on ABCs "America" series they did a few years back. This man had a degree in Nuclear Physics, and yet he seemed to think that bones found on the ground today are the same as petrified dinosaur bones found in the ground, thus conclusively proving that evolution was a lie. (Yeah, yeah I know... :roll:)

If being that well educated won't protect you from choosing that level of stupidity, then nothing will. There's a fine difference in being ignorant and being stupid and it is a difference of will. I reiterate: Pain is life's punishment for stupidity.
Education does not immunize you to stupidity, but it generally makes it easier to resist. In the example you mention, there is of course no excuse.
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I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
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Post by Azrael »

Broomstick wrote:Appalacia has long had a reputation for ignorance and poverty. Among the in-laws there are some educated and successful folks, but there are also many who never had adequate schooling. It was only a generation ago that literacy was considered optional for women and being unable to read no shame for a man, and keeping a kid in school long enough to graduate an indulgence that would make young men soft and fill young women's heads with useless notions and unrealistic ideas of their worth. Generations of people with no schooling beyond 2-6 years of primary/elementary education at most. In such a context, conventional medicine is just as mysterious and magical as faith healing - but faith healing costs a lot less. You're talking about people ruled by superstition and religion, not logic and science.

Which is why it's no surprise that faith healers do well in Appalacia. And in the Deep South, where similar social symptoms manifest as well.

Fortunately, among the in-laws the trend is towards more education - but it hasn't been easy. The parents never finished school and feel they've done alright (even if they haven't) and see no reason for their children to be indulged. It's the enforcement of truancy laws that has resulted in more kids getting even a minimally adequate education, and even so, there is a tendency to pull the kids out of high school and have them take a GED instead of "wasting" a few more years in class. The next generation after this will, I hope, be in a much better position but these problems are not corrected quickly.
Now this I can sympathize with. It's not hard to leave people the impression that education is unimportant when the education you give them is bullshit. In some places, spending 8 hours helping out at the farm can be seen as far more valueble that spending that same time in class. Manual labor doesn't require much education, and if you think thats all there is for you in life then you may as well drop out.

However, I don't entirely buy the assertion that faith healers are successful due exclusively to the fundie effect. Their tricks, like the wheelchair example in the OP, are thinly veiled enough for even other fundies to see through, so whats their problem? In order for faith healing charlatainism to work the mark has to choose to be baboozled, to put intellectual blindspots over the bleeding obvious, or be desperate enough to believe that it can work when all other efforts have failed. Taking advantage of the desperate is primarily why faith healers are assholes.
mr friendly guy wrote:Well he was actually born Granville Roberts. I guess Oral sounds better than Granville any day of the week.
*reads wikipedia*

.... :wtf: There is a christian university named after this man, who chose to be known as "Oral Roberts" after becoming a minister. Seriously. This kind of comedy's fit only for MAD TV or a national lampoons movie, not reality.

meanwhile, somewhere in the midwest
Son -Dad! Dad! Great news!
Oblivious Father - What, son?
Son - I got into Oral, dad!
OF - Well thats great! You brother got into Beaver a couple of days ago!
Son - yay!...wait. I didn't see his exception letter.
Brother - Oh, *blows on finger nails* I didn't need one.
mr friendly guy wrote:On another note, I don't have that much reservation about Ka El, (being a comic book geek and all). I just snigger at Nicholas Cage for naming his son that.
Kal'els not a bad name if you live on krypton and your life feels like a progression of base colored panels. But in real life, this kid's gonna have to put "Kal'el" on his social security cards, drivers licenses, birth certificate and anytime he has to apply for something, like financial aid (HA!) or a mortgage. All those snickers and shitty jokes he's going to get are gonna be a pain in the ass. After nearly being named after a famous fictional figure, I know I dodged a bullet.
mr friendly guy wrote:Oh good. For a moment I thought I was a heartless bastard.
Oh, you are, just not for this. :P
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

I'm still waiting for a televangelist to heal an amputee.
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