Don't the Sith/Dark jedi etc. have legal protection?

[NecronLord]

Possession of Sithian artifacts proves what, exactly?

Given that, recalling my hazy knowledge of some of the more farcical EU material, such artifacts are known to be on several occasions, superweapons dwarfing the Death Star in power, I would be stunned if they're not proscribed at the highest level.

House Pelagia in the Tapani Sector

Which appears to be at the very least a faction of the government highly independant minded sector, or possibly an independant state altogether (they do, after all, let the Trade Federation speak in the Galactic Senate...). The effective legality of what they choose to do would be limited entirely by how easy it is to prosecute them, a variable I would describe the value of as 'difficult.'

Furthermore, his 'secret lair' was precisely that: secret.

And of course, extensive investigation post-arrest couldn't reveal anything. Not even the secret compartments containing big black sith ritual robes he kept in his office. The assumption that post-arrest, more evidence could not be gathered is predicated upon the ineptitude of jedi/republic investigators. Although most Star Wars characters, especially Palpatine himself, are apallingly stupid in some respect or other, you'll forgive me for presuming that a through forensic investigation of Palpatine's behaviour and properties might find something. Not least whatever mechanism he uses to dispatch instructions to the Confederacy.

altogether different from proving that someone is a Sith Lord,

Simply because Windu said 'you're a sith lord' does not mean that's precisely what he planned to enter on the charge sheet. 'High Treason' would be my guess.

Police officers do not command armies in the field,

No one does, in the Republic, it didn't even have an army until the day the Clone Wars started.

and they certainly don't murder unarmed suspects because they're "too dangerous" to be allowed to live.

And that was certainly not standard Jedi procedure, just Windu's judgement. It doesn't affect that they'd have grounds for holding him.

And certainly police officers do not simply arrest heads of state on the spot.

Sure they do. In the US, if Bush went around blowing people's brains out on the street, who do you think would arrest him if not the police? Heads of State are generally not arrested for a variety of reasons. Legal inability is, with the exception of monarchies, generally not one of them.

How long, precisely, do you think Palpatine would have remained in custody if he'd been brought to the Judicial Department by a mentally unstable man claiming that he'd heard the head of state of the Galactic Republic and commander-in-chief of the Grand Army of the Republic admit to being a Sith Lord?

Given that the Jedi appear to serve as an entirely autonomous police force, I doubt it would come to that. And again, they've been shown to punish Sith Lords without recourse to the courts before. Chances are they could quite legally pronounce a death sentance on Sidious and carry it out long before the head of the Justice Department was called out of bed to stop them.

Where is the evidence? Where is the proof?

Precisely why one detains him, for further investigation.

It is the word of one man against that of another, and that other happens to be the head of state of the Galactic Republic and commander-in-chief of the Grand Army of the Republic. Furthermore, you must remember that those three Jedi Masters were killed with precisely two witnesses: the leader of an attempted coup and the head of state. They were killed while attempting to illegally arrest the head of state on no tenable charge, with no supporting evidence and no warrant for arrest.

Evidently something not required. We've seen the Jedi just round people up on whim during their investigations. They have the ability to arrest persons and bring them before the council for questioning (AotC) without recourse to outside authority.

At any rate, by the time he'd killed three Jedi Masters, the time for legally dealing with Palpatine's treachery was past. Those Jedi had already crossed the line and become criminals, and he could easily point out that he'd killed them in self-defense. Which is more or less what he did, in fact.

And, frankly, I'd trust the obvious preceedent and confidence of the Jedi in having some means with which to proscecute him, over the at best highly fraudulent or completely fabricated (in that it's directly contradicted by the canon) transcript Palpatine presented, complete with ridiculous sob story, to the fanatically cheering senate. The idea that evidence of his many midemenours would not be found by forensic means or interrogation - especially when the Jedi have the option of cutting apart his mind (Almost certainly practical, if 'dark side' simply by virtue of the sheer number of Jedi Masters) to find out where he'd been (remember, they're obviously not prosecuted for using their funky mind powers on people, and do so with absolute impunity, even to bystanders) and what he'd been up to.

Repulic law, as concerning the jedi, seems to be largely 'let the jedi do as they like and trust them to self-regulate,' foolish though it seems.

[NecronLord]

Let's say they arrest Palpatine, and manage to keep control of the army (if there's a real flaw in their plan, that's it. How loyal are the clones to the Jedi, assuming they don't recieve an order sixty-six? Would they side with the Jedi in a coup?). Given how rare it is for them to be challenged, it would seem that there are either very few or no means of stopping a jedi investigation - for the obvious reason that if it was possible to appeal such investigations, they wouldn't get much done, all the Trade Federation or any other powerful group would have to do would be hire a hundred thousand high powered lawyers to follow every jedi around with a team of ten and hound them for the slightest misdemenour - it would seem that preceedent for getting a prisoner off the Jedi while they're still conducting an investigation would be thorny indeed. Even if Windu's coup chose to play the law to the hilt, there are no known mechanisms by which their arrest of Palpatine could be challenged, and while some certainly exist, the sad fact is, that very little thought has been put into how the Jedi would operate as an investigative force in a legal framework, and they are essentially vigilantes at th best of times. Short of the head of the Justice Department (who could certainly be detained for questioning on short notice for being in league with Palpatine) ordering them (are they obliged to obey, anyway? Who knows...) to release Palpatine, how else is it going to happen?

[Noble Ire]

Sure they do. In the US, if Bush went around blowing people's brains out on the street, who do you think would arrest him if not the police? Heads of State are generally not arrested for a variety of reasons. Legal inability is, with the exception of monarchies, generally not one of them.

However, a police officer could not walk up to Bush and arrest him for subverting the Constitution or Crimes against Humanity, which is, essentially, what Mace Windu attempted to do. Before the Jedi made their intention to use deadly force clear, there was no evidence that Palpatine ever had killed anyone personally.

[NecronLord]

However, a police officer

Fortunately for ther Jedi, they are ultra-high-powered police who seem to have essentially unlimited authority, including acting as plenipotentiaries and mediators, as well as having a long tradition as military commanders and being seemingly able to do whatever they like without fear of prosecution by ordinary mortals. As I said, their behaviour is more that of state sanctioned vigilantes than police, which is probably how they developed their relationship with the Republic in the first place.

The Jedi are legally able to do whatever the plot requires, after all.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Also, and i brought this up before, one need only look at previous Sith Lords and members of the Sith/Dark Jedi cults to see clearly that constan exposure to the Dark Side of the Force causes extreme mental illness and makes the person deranged very quickly.

In fact, just check out Anakin: you could write a lifetime of psychotherapy book sanalyzing all the things wrong with him, starting with sociopathic tendencies and working down, and that was only from a short exposure to the Dark Side, Palps was drinking the kool-aid long, long before Anakin was a twinkle in his father's eye (which i guess would mean the Force's eye).

At the very least the fact he's exposed himself to a mind altering, psychosis inducing energy that is KNOWN, and well known at that, to breed sociopaths, tyrants and killers (again a cursory glance at Sith history will tell you this, if you have any doubt) they could probably claim he was unfit to hold his office cause of mental illness. And the investigation that WOULD most certainly follow would only show this to be correct.

Like rooms full of Sith artifacts, weapons, ritual stuff, red lightsabers, comunication systems linked to the ICS, among other stuff (surely there must be some law against concealed weapons in the Republic, which hiding a cache of lightsabers, weapons exclusive to the Jedi Knights, in statues would be).

And THEN it would be child's play to add, "Oh, and besides being insane and unfit for office, lookie here, he also has commited crimes against humanity, murder, piracy, terrorist acts, high treason, *list goes on for six pages*"

[Crazy_Vasey]

[
However, a police officer could not walk up to Bush and arrest him for subverting the Constitution or Crimes against Humanity, which is, essentially, what Mace Windu attempted to do. Before the Jedi made their intention to use deadly force clear, there was no evidence that Palpatine ever had killed anyone personally.

Um, not quite. The Jedi announced that they were going to arrest Palpatine and ignited their lightsabres. Unless you think they were outright lying when they said he was under arrest and were just going to execute him if he surrendered, I can't see how your position would hold true. It's not like having a live weapon in your hands is terribly out of line when dealing with a Sith Lord.

[Noble Ire]

[
However, a police officer could not walk up to Bush and arrest him for subverting the Constitution or Crimes against Humanity, which is, essentially, what Mace Windu attempted to do. Before the Jedi made their intention to use deadly force clear, there was no evidence that Palpatine ever had killed anyone personally.

Um, not quite. The Jedi announced that they were going to arrest Palpatine and ignited their lightsabres. Unless you think they were outright lying when they said he was under arrest and were just going to execute him if he surrendered, I can't see how your position would hold true. It's not like having a live weapon in your hands is terribly out of line when dealing with a Sith Lord.

I believe you're missing the point of my statement. I was simply pointing out that while a prominent politician can easily be arrested if they are blatantly murderous, detaining them with charges of more general crimes, even if they are far worse, would be much more difficult to do. The intent of Mace and co. is a different matter entirely (the second sentence was simply pointing out that until Palpatine killed the three other masters, no one knew he had killed anyone).

[Crazy_Vasey]

I believe you're missing the point of my statement. I was simply pointing out that while a prominent politician can easily be arrested if they are blatantly murderous, detaining them with charges of more general crimes, even if they are far worse, would be much more difficult to do. The intent of Mace and co. is a different matter entirely (the second sentence was simply pointing out that until Palpatine killed the three other masters, no one knew he had killed anyone).

Fair enough then. But while they might not have direct evidence of his commiting murder, they do have his confession to being a Sith Lord. Anakin may not have been at his most rational, but once the information was given a master of Mace's level could probably feel the truth in it or whatever it is that Jedi do. That would strike me as sufficent grounds given that the only other known Sith Lord of recent years was the leader of the CIS and the known structure of the Sith Order at the time.

[Imperial Overlord]

Anakin was specifically given orders to spy on the Chancellor and he's known to be close to him. When he says "Palpatine is a Sith Lord" it is something a Jedi is going to take very seriously, even if its not enough proof for a court of law. The Jedi don't know exactly what is going on, but they do know there is a long history of Sith involvement with the Separtist leadership from Darth Maul, to Dooku, to Grievous. It greatly expands the scope of illegal activities that Palpatine may have been involved in. And lastly, but hardly least, arresting a cunning polititian and arresting a Sith Lord are two different things entirely. Whatever security forces there are around the Supreme Chancellor were easily overcome by both Mace's group and Yoda. Darth Sidious himself was not so easy to apprehend. If you're on the way to arrest Palpatine for treason already, someone telling you that Palpatine is in fact immensely dangerous in personal combat as well as your ancient enemy would make a strong impression.

[Publius]

Given that, recalling my hazy knowledge of some of the more farcical EU material, such artifacts are known to be on several occasions, superweapons dwarfing the Death Star in power, I would be stunned if they're not proscribed at the highest level.

The last Sithian weapon of mass destruction was a warship several hundred meters long. It is highly unlikely that Palpatine had one of these in a hidden cache on Coruscant, considering that the only known example of that class was destroyed in a supernova 5,000 years before the Battle of Yavin in The Sith War. The only Sithian artifacts Sidious is known to have possessed are holocrons and artistic curios, some of which were openly displayed in his office in Revenge of the Sith. You have no evidence that any of them were illegal, only your supposition that the entire Sithian religion was outlawed.

Which appears to be at the very least a faction of the government highly independant minded sector, or possibly an independant state altogether (they do, after all, let the Trade Federation speak in the Galactic Senate...). The effective legality of what they choose to do would be limited entirely by how easy it is to prosecute them, a variable I would describe the value of as 'difficult.'

House Pelagia had close ties to the Jedi Order, and indeed some of the families in the House had produced several Jedi Knights. In fact, the Jedi had actually handed over possession of Sith'ari Adas's holocron to House Pelagia's library, according to "Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties." The Freedon Nadd Uprising also showed that Sithian spellbooks were on display in the Galactic Museum on Coruscant, and were easily stolen by private citizens.

And of course, extensive investigation post-arrest couldn't reveal anything. Not even the secret compartments containing big black sith ritual robes he kept in his office. The assumption that post-arrest, more evidence could not be gathered is predicated upon the ineptitude of jedi/republic investigators. Although most Star Wars characters, especially Palpatine himself, are apallingly stupid in some respect or other, you'll forgive me for presuming that a through forensic investigation of Palpatine's behaviour and properties might find something. Not least whatever mechanism he uses to dispatch instructions to the Confederacy.

Extensive investigation to be undertaken on what basis? One does not arrest someone and then look for substantiating evidence afterward; not in a democratic society, at any rate. One certainly does not arrest a head of state on the basis that someone claims he might be a religious extremist, and then go looking for incriminating evidence. Investigation takes place before arrest, not afterward. Suspicion is not grounds for arrest.

The evidence of Palpatine's crimes was available if a thorough investigation were conducted, certainly. But the Jedi Order did not conduct a thorough investigation, and did not have any evidence of any kind; there was only the fact that Mace Windu unilaterally decided that it was time for the Supreme Chancellor to surrender the lawful authority he had been duly awarded by the Senate, and the fact that Anakin Skywalker claimed he was a Sith Lord. Notice that Windu did not question Skywalker about this; he did not ask how he knew. In fact, Skywalker did not even tell him that Palpatine had said he was a Sith Lord. Skywalker merely said that he'd learned Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and Windu proceeded as though this were an established fact.

When Windu attempted to arrest the Supreme Chancellor, the only charge he could cite was that he was a Sith Lord -- which Palpatine pointed out wasn't even a crime. When pressed, Windu simply refused to name a crime at all. This was not police work, unless one considers the KGB or SD to be reputable police organizations.

Furthermore, you are being incoherent; you are suggesting possible events that might have taken place afterward under different circumstances as though they were relevant to events that actually did place. The Jedi might have discovered evidence of his numerous and egregious crimes after arresting him, but what evidence would they have discovered? Evidence of his secular crimes of treason, espionage, piracy, terrorism, ethical misconduct, official corruption, &c. &c. &c. In other words, the evidence that you are suggesting that they would find would be the evidence that they should have been looking for in the first place instead of trying to prove that he was a Sith Lord, which was this author's entire point in the first place. These crimes would be relevant because they don't require a particular religious persuasion to be illegal. Being a Sith Lord is only a crime if the judge is a Jedi Knight. Being a war criminal is a crime regardless of who is the judge.

In any event, finding evidence to support their decision after overthrowing the government would not retroactively make their behavior not treasonous. They did not have any such evidence when they launched their coup.

Simply because Windu said 'you're a sith lord' does not mean that's precisely what he planned to enter on the charge sheet. 'High Treason' would be my guess.

You are treating your supposition as though it were evidence; it is not. When Palpatine demanded to know on what charge he was being arrested, Mace Windu stated that he was being arrested for being a Sith Lord. When challenged to name a legally defensible charge, he offered none, stating only that he wasn't going to argue. Windu had no case, but he proceeded anyway, such niceties as Constitutional law notwithstanding. But the fact of the matter is that he had no proof of even that, let alone proof of treason of any kind (great or small). There was plenty of evidence to support an arrest, but Mace Windu didn't have any of it. He'd already decided to force Palpatine from office when Skywalker claimed he was a Sith Lord. This was not police work of any kind; it was an outright coup.

No one does, in the Republic, it didn't even have an army until the day the Clone Wars started.

You are being incoherent; are we not discussing the Jedi Order's activities at the end of the Clone War? Then surely the fact that these 'superpolicemen' commanded armies in the field during the Clone War is relevant.

And that was certainly not standard Jedi procedure, just Windu's judgement. It doesn't affect that they'd have grounds for holding him.

This Jedi had no grounds at all for holding Palpatine. The fact that one Jedi -- in a state of obvious emotional distress -- made an unsubstantiated accusation is not grounds for removal of the head of state and commander-in-chief, and in point of fact Mace Windu even explicitly stated that he did not even trust this Jedi (he pointedly said that if Skywalker's claim were true, then he would have earned Windu's trust). Skywalker did not elaborate on his claim; he did not explain his reasons for believing this. He simply stated it as fact, and Windu accepted it at face value.

By analogy, do you think it would be legally justifiable for the Security Service to arrest Tony Blair and investigate his dealings because one officer without providing any evidence whatever accused him of being a terrorist in disguise? Or for the Federal Bureau of Investigation to arrest George W. Bush because a special agent made the completely unsubstantiated claim that he was secretly a Nazi? Outside of totalitarian police states, investigation comes before arrest, and accusation is not synonymous with conviction.

You seem to be confusing the fact that Palpatine killed the Jedi who illegally attempted to remove him from office with the fact that the Jedi planned to remove him from office. When the Jedi Masters entered his office and stated their intention to arrest him, he had not yet killed anyone. They had no proof of any kind whatever that he was a Sith Lord, or that he was a war criminal. The fact that he was both does not retroactively justify their behavior; they acted in a grossly undemocratic and criminal fashion -- which is ironic, considering that Windu's whole justification was that Palpatine was plotting the destruction of the Republic.

He was, but Windu didn't actually know that.

Sure they do. In the US, if Bush went around blowing people's brains out on the street, who do you think would arrest him if not the police? Heads of State are generally not arrested for a variety of reasons. Legal inability is, with the exception of monarchies, generally not one of them.

It seems that you saw an early cut of Revenge of the Sith in which Sidious killed people before the Jedi Masters entered his office and illegally attempted to arrest him on unsupported charges motivated by unsubstantiated accusations. Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us whom he killed before the Jedi drew their weapons and tried to arrest him? When, precisely, did Palpatine go about "blowing people's brains out on the street"? He killed the Jedi Masters in self-defense, after they had already stated their intention of arresting him. The situation you are describing is irrelevant strawmannery.

Given that the Jedi appear to serve as an entirely autonomous police force, I doubt it would come to that. And again, they've been shown to punish Sith Lords without recourse to the courts before. Chances are they could quite legally pronounce a death sentance on Sidious and carry it out long before the head of the Justice Department was called out of bed to stop them.

The Jedi Order is most certainly not an entirely autonomous police force. Cloak of Deception makes very clear that the Jedi were forbidden to intervene in matters involving Republic members without express authorization from the Senate; the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook specifically states that "the Republic and the Jedi are not the same, and the Jedi hold no authority in the Republic," and "serve when asked and stand aside at all other times"; it "receives its funds from the Republic Senate, in return for which the Jedi make their services available to the Supreme Chancellor." Their authority as 'policemen,' then, stems from the fact that the Supreme Chancellor deputizes them to act on his behalf in his role as the chief executive of the Republic. The sourcebook even states that the Jedi usually did not face legal repercussions was not a mattter of exemption from the law, but rather because "the Republic tends to understand the exigencies of Jedi missions and is usually willing to overlook so-called 'victimless crimes' a Jedi might perpetrate in pursuit of his mission."

To be blunt, the Jedi did not face legal repercussions because they had a wink-wink nudge-nudge relationship with the actual policemen of the Republic, who were content not to enforce the law when the Jedi happened to break it. The fact that the Republic turned a blind eye to the Jedi Order's illegal activities does not equate to legal immunity.

In point of fact, Revenge of the Sith reveals that the High Council's plans to overthrow Palpatine were formalized precisely becuase of a proposed amendment to the Security Act that would give him direct control over the Jedi Council -- an amendment that in Mace Windu's words would "give him the constitutional authority to disband the Order itself." The Jedi's objections to this were not legal objections that they were an autonomous police force; it was philosophical whining that "though nominally in command of the Council, the Senate may place him, the Jedi he cannot control," because "moral, our authority has always been; much more than merely legal."

When Windu made clear his belief that a coup was necessary because he thought the dark side surrounded the Supreme Chancellor, Yoda quite rightly declared that proof was needed, not baseless theories. Windu's response is quite telling: "Proof may be a luxury we cannot afford. We must be ready to act." When Obi-Wan pointed out that Windu was talking about outright treason, Windu was even more explicit: "I'm not afraid of words, Obi-Wan! If it's treason, then so be it. I would do this right now, if I had the Council's support. The real treason would be failure to act."

Is this the talk of a reasoned policemen prepared to conduct a professional, scientific investigation? Is this the talk of a policeman concerned with the rule of law? Not in the least. This is the paranoid raving of a religious fanatic, prepared to commit treason because he thinks a Sith Lord may have influenced the duly-constituted legistlature and the duly-elected head of state of the Republic he claims to love and serve. Even he admits that the law was not on his side in this matter.

And yet you unilaterally declare that maybe what he did was lawful? On what basis? When Palpatine pointed out that being a Sith Lord was not a crime and that the Constitution prohibited religious persecution, did Windu cite precedent? Did he dispute the legality of the Supreme Chancellor's claims? No. Mace Windu's response to a reasoned argument was the fallacy of argumentum ad baculum. He made no recourse to law, unless it be the law of the sword.

Precisely why one detains him, for further investigation.

This might be acceptable conduct for fascists like the Imperial Security Bureau, but it is grotesque and disgraceful in a liberal, democratic society and rule of law, such as the Republic that Mace Windu allegedly loved. An unsubstantiated accusation of wrongdoing is not grounds for arrest. Investigation takes place before arrest, unless one's name is Mace Windu and proof is a luxury one can do without.

Evidently something not required. We've seen the Jedi just round people up on whim during their investigations. They have the ability to arrest persons and bring them before the council for questioning (AotC) without recourse to outside authority.

You only assume that evidence is not required. The Power of the Jedi Sourcebook states that the Republic frequently just ignored crimes that the Jedi committed in the course of their missions. Do you think "They usually don't care when we break the law" is a sound legal argument? The Jedi only had authority to intervene when authorized to by the Senate and deputized by the Supreme Chancellor. The Jedi did not even bother to notify the Senate of their concerns, on the grounds that the Senate was "obviously" under the influence of the alleged second Sith Lord -- a Sith Lord whom they could not even prove existed.

And, frankly, I'd trust the obvious preceedent and confidence of the Jedi in having some means with which to proscecute him, over the at best highly fraudulent or completely fabricated (in that it's directly contradicted by the canon) transcript Palpatine presented, complete with ridiculous sob story, to the fanatically cheering senate. The idea that evidence of his many midemenours would not be found by forensic means or interrogation - especially when the Jedi have the option of cutting apart his mind (Almost certainly practical, if 'dark side' simply by virtue of the sheer number of Jedi Masters) to find out where he'd been (remember, they're obviously not prosecuted for using their funky mind powers on people, and do so with absolute impunity, even to bystanders) and what he'd been up to.

The Jedi had no proof that Darth Sidious even existed. They moved to overthrow the lawfully-elected Supreme Chancellor on the basis that he was either a Sith Lord or under a Sith Lord's influence, despite the fact that the Sith Lord was still only theoretical as far as they knew. You propose that this is acceptable conduct on the basis that they might find proof that he was a Sith Lord after they committed gross acts of treason and insurrection and illegally arrested their own superior without a warrant or probable cause and without any lawful authority to act, and if they didn't find any proof, they could always just torture him into confessing? Do you find this behavior to be acceptable in a liberal democracy?

Fortunately for ther Jedi, they are ultra-high-powered police who seem to have essentially unlimited authority, including acting as plenipotentiaries and mediators, as well as having a long tradition as military commanders and being seemingly able to do whatever they like without fear of prosecution by ordinary mortals. As I said, their behaviour is more that of state sanctioned vigilantes than police, which is probably how they developed their relationship with the Republic in the first place.

The Jedi are not 'ultra-high-powered police' and do not have unlimited authority. They are deputized by the Supreme Chancellor and are only authorized to act with Senate approval. Their de facto immunity to prosecution is not a legal matter but rather a function of the Republic's willingness to turn a blind eye to their crimes. A wink-wink nudge-nudge relationship with sometimes deputies hardly equates to 'essentially unlimited authority.'

It bears repeating that the Jedi did not even have evidence that a second Sith Lord existed at all. This was an assumption accepted as fact because it flattered the established Jedi obsession with the Sith, and virtually all of their decisions in Revenge of the Sith were colored by this obsessive groupthink. Their conclusion that Palpatine, the Senate, and the Supreme Court could not be trusted because they were under the Sith Lord's influence assumed that there actually was a second Sith Lord, despite the fact that they had no proof of this Sith Lord's existence. This is circulus in demonstrando, fallacious begging of the question; the premise -- there is a second Sith Lord -- was at least as questionable as the conclusion -- so-and-so is untrustworthy because he's being influenced by the second Sith Lord. Does this kind of reasoning justify a coup d'état?

The Jedi's religious obsession with their thrawn schismatic, heretical offspring was a major psychological weakness.This obsession drove them to commit treason on nothing more substantial than paranoia and vague statements offered without the least shred of evidence. In the end, the reason that Windu was so willing to overthrow the government of the Republic was that a Sith Lord had told a Jedi Knight that the Senate was controlled by a Sith Lord, and then a Jedi Knight Windu himself considered to be mentally unstable claimed to have discovered that the Supreme Chancellor was a Sith Lord. Is this evidence? Is this the hinge about which the fate of a galaxy ought to turn? He-said-she-said? Maybe there's a Sith Lord there? This is the lunatic raving of frightened children lashing out at monsters underneath the bed.

The fact that Palpatine actually was a Sith Lord is irrelevant; the Jedi did not know that when they decided to launch their cloister coup, and they certainly couldn't prove it. The fact that they probably would have found evidence to prove that he was a Sith Lord is also irrelevant; they would have found this evidence after they'd already committed treason. Even the fact that he was a Sith Lord at all was and should have been irrelevant; being a Sith Lord was not a crime. Palpatine was an outrageous criminal on a purely secular level, and the investigation against him and eventual charges should have been purely secular as well. The Jedi's irrational fear of the Sith pushed them into reckless, inadvisable behavior, destroying their Order's reputation and handing Palpatine the excuse he needed to order their extermination.

[Havok]

I didn't see this anywhere in previous posts, (I only skimed, so sorry if I missed it) but wouldn't the fact that Palpatine was ABLE to kill 4 Jedi masters, whether in self defense or not, BY HIMSELF, and with a lightsaber, sorta prove he was indeed a Sith Lord, and thus subject to the pervue or "jurisdiction" of the Jedi. I mean, how many people in the galaxy could single handedly fight 4 Jedi masters, let alone kill 3 of them in 10 seconds. Granted, I guess it wouldn't have mattered after the fact, since there is no one left alive to accuse him of being a Sith Lord...

Hmmm, maybe Yoda and Obi Wan should have just strolled into the senate during Palpy's speach and simply said: "A Sith Lord, the Supreme Chancellor is. The war, he has orchestrated from the beging." "The Sith have decimated the Jedi and even killed our younglings and they mean to rule the galaxy. Palpatine is evil and must be stopped!"

[18-Till-I-Die]

Unfotunately immediately after Palps kills the last Jedi with Anakin's help, he orders the extermination of the Jedi Order. Thus even though this is good evidence of his being a Sith it's a moot point from there on in. Afterwards he can clean up the evidence and say his loyal assistant Anakin was able to defend him..."He is the Chosen One after all, sure he could do that, no problem"...the public thinks.

[RedImperator]

I didn't see this anywhere in previous posts, (I only skimed, so sorry if I missed it) but wouldn't the fact that Palpatine was ABLE to kill 4 Jedi masters, whether in self defense or not, BY HIMSELF, and with a lightsaber, sorta prove he was indeed a Sith Lord, and thus subject to the pervue or "jurisdiction" of the Jedi. I mean, how many people in the galaxy could single handedly fight 4 Jedi masters, let alone kill 3 of them in 10 seconds. Granted, I guess it wouldn't have mattered after the fact, since there is no one left alive to accuse him of being a Sith Lord...

Which entirely misses Publius's point that when Windu walked into Palpatine's office, he not only had no proof Palpatine was a Sith Lord, he had no proof a second Sith Lord actually existed.

Hmmm, maybe Yoda and Obi Wan should have just strolled into the senate during Palpy's speach and simply said: "A Sith Lord, the Supreme Chancellor is. The war, he has orchestrated from the beging." "The Sith have decimated the Jedi and even killed our younglings and they mean to rule the galaxy. Palpatine is evil and must be stopped!"

After a failed assassination attempt that left the man hideously disfigured and still no proof from the Jedi? What the hell would that do besides leave Yoda and Obi-Wan in position to be overwhelmed with superior firepower when they tried to escape?

[Ender]

So Publius handed someone their ass on the topic of Palpatine, the Republic, and law in the galaxy. Who didn't see that one coming?

[Havok]

I didn't see this anywhere in previous posts, (I only skimed, so sorry if I missed it) but wouldn't the fact that Palpatine was ABLE to kill 4 Jedi masters, whether in self defense or not, BY HIMSELF, and with a lightsaber, sorta prove he was indeed a Sith Lord, and thus subject to the pervue or "jurisdiction" of the Jedi. I mean, how many people in the galaxy could single handedly fight 4 Jedi masters, let alone kill 3 of them in 10 seconds. Granted, I guess it wouldn't have mattered after the fact, since there is no one left alive to accuse him of being a Sith Lord...

Which entirely misses Publius's point that when Windu walked into Palpatine's office, he not only had no proof Palpatine was a Sith Lord, he had no proof a second Sith Lord actually existed.

Hmmm, maybe Yoda and Obi Wan should have just strolled into the senate during Palpy's speach and simply said: "A Sith Lord, the Supreme Chancellor is. The war, he has orchestrated from the beging." "The Sith have decimated the Jedi and even killed our younglings and they mean to rule the galaxy. Palpatine is evil and must be stopped!"

After a failed assassination attempt that left the man hideously disfigured and still no proof from the Jedi? What the hell would that do besides leave Yoda and Obi-Wan in position to be overwhelmed with superior firepower when they tried to escape?

Well of course they had no proof when they entered the office, I was mearly commenting that Palpatine, by his actions pretty much gave them the proof. At that point all they had was the word of one of the most revered heros of the Clone Wars and a leading member of the Jedi council, which is still just hearsay. Like I said, it 's after the facts of the events and doesn't matter, but if it somehow went to court and Palpatine was questioned on whether or not he was a Sith Lord and was presented with the facts of what he had done, well aside from deep frying the inquisitor, being the Emperor of the galaxy and all, he might be sweating how to get around the answer.


As for Yoda and Obi Wan, I must have left my winking smiley face in my other pants

[Darth Garden Gnome]

You've missed the point by a mile havokeff. The argument Publius is making is that Mace Windu's actions were treasonous; he had no way of proving that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. It's not that he was wrong, but he was acting only on one looney Jedi's accusations.

And Palpatine said himself when accused of being a Sith Lord: "Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact -- the last time I read the Constitution, anyway -- we have very strict laws against this type of persecution."

We assume he's right because A.) there's nothing to contradict it and B.) he's clearly trying to avoid risking his life in a duel with some whackjob, and lying would only ensure a fight. Since being a Sith Lord isn't a crime, and he killed the Jedi in self-defense, the rest of the Order has no case.

Incidentally, I really need to get the ROTS novellization. Seems chock full of interesting dialouge.

[Havok]

The point was not missed at all and definetly not by a mile. Like Publius said, Mace outright said he didn't care if his actions were treasonous (ROTS Novel, which I've been re-reading tonight, you should get it.) I mearly said, and maybe I should be more clear, that by his physical actions of killing three Jedi Masters with his own lightsaber, he provided the proof that anyone one in the SW galaxy would need that he is a Sith Lord, or at the very least a dark Jedi. And that, historically, it has always been the Jedi who identify someone as a Sith, aside from the Sith themeselves, and thus arresting him, fighting him or killing him would be the responsibility of the Jedi if for no other reason than normal police agencies wouldn't be able to do it.

I not once contradicted the fact that Mace was commiting a crime. In fact I absolutely agree that he was, but from his point of view he was mearly being patriotic and ridding his beloved Republic of a corrupt leader. Right or wrong... well history is written by the victors and Mace lost.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

by his physical actions of killing three Jedi Masters with his own lightsaber, he provided the proof that anyone one in the SW galaxy would need that he is a Sith Lord, or at the very least a dark Jedi. And that, historically, it has always been the Jedi who identify someone as a Sith, aside from the Sith themeselves, and thus arresting him, fighting him or killing him would be the responsibility of the Jedi if for no other reason than normal police agencies wouldn't be able to do it.

That may have been the case when the Sith were a race from across the stars plotting galactic domination, but that was many thousands of years before the events of Revenge of the Sith.

As Palpatine had indicated, he was committing no crime by being a Sith Lord. The incident doesn't even prove that he was one; all that it indicates is that he was a Force user well-trained in lightsaber combat. He wasn't doing anything illegal by hiding his Force sensitivity.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The point was not missed at all and definetly not by a mile. Like Publius said, Mace outright said he didn't care if his actions were treasonous (ROTS Novel, which I've been re-reading tonight, you should get it.) I mearly said, and maybe I should be more clear, that by his physical actions of killing three Jedi Masters with his own lightsaber, he provided the proof that anyone one in the SW galaxy would need that he is a Sith Lord, or at the very least a dark Jedi. And that, historically, it has always been the Jedi who identify someone as a Sith, aside from the Sith themeselves, and thus arresting him, fighting him or killing him would be the responsibility of the Jedi if for no other reason than normal police agencies wouldn't be able to do it.

I not once contradicted the fact that Mace was commiting a crime. In fact I absolutely agree that he was, but from his point of view he was mearly being patriotic and ridding his beloved Republic of a corrupt leader. Right or wrong... well history is written by the victors and Mace lost.

Yeah, cause their certainly never was a Non-Force Using Kaleesh Cyborg General Hero of the CIS who wielded 2-7 lightsabers at a time capable of killing seven Jedi in one single skirmish by himself on the planet Hypori...

As for no proof to the existance of a second Sith Lord; I don't know how much proof you could call this, but didn't the Republic capture Nute Gunray's Mechno-Chair during the First Battle of Cato-Neimodia, which had a holographic transmission from Darth Sidious recorded on it? Of course you can reason that they had no way of knowing if it was just a fabricated message or not, but it's still some amount of evidence.

[Eframepilot]

It didn't matter what legal charges the Jedi brought against Palpatine. He had already legally subverted the Senate and the constitution and he had the entire Jedi Order at his mercy through Order 66. Palpatine was only waiting for the opportunity to turn Anakin and an excuse to attack the Jedi. By the start of Episode III, extra-legal action was the only way to stop Darth Sidious and restore the Senate and constitution to their proper forms, as eventually the Rebellion did.

[Havok]

The point was not missed at all and definetly not by a mile. Like Publius said, Mace outright said he didn't care if his actions were treasonous (ROTS Novel, which I've been re-reading tonight, you should get it.) I mearly said, and maybe I should be more clear, that by his physical actions of killing three Jedi Masters with his own lightsaber, he provided the proof that anyone one in the SW galaxy would need that he is a Sith Lord, or at the very least a dark Jedi. And that, historically, it has always been the Jedi who identify someone as a Sith, aside from the Sith themeselves, and thus arresting him, fighting him or killing him would be the responsibility of the Jedi if for no other reason than normal police agencies wouldn't be able to do it.

I not once contradicted the fact that Mace was commiting a crime. In fact I absolutely agree that he was, but from his point of view he was mearly being patriotic and ridding his beloved Republic of a corrupt leader. Right or wrong... well history is written by the victors and Mace lost.

Yeah, cause their certainly never was a Non-Force Using Kaleesh Cyborg General Hero of the CIS who wielded 2-7 lightsabers at a time capable of killing seven Jedi in one single skirmish by himself on the planet Hypori...

Which is why I said Masters. 3 Jedi Masters in a matter of about 10-20 seconds, in the movie and the novelization. If you are talking about the Clone Wars cartoon, Grievious fought a mix of Padawans, Knights and only ONE Master, whom I might add was not killed, either were Shak-ti or the blue chick (brain fart) Allyuma-somthing.

When Grievous was confronted with a powerfull single Master, Kenobi, he got his ass handed to him and couldn't get away fast enough. Hardly a Sith Lord.

[Havok]

It didn't matter what legal charges the Jedi brought against Palpatine. He had already legally subverted the Senate and the constitution and he had the entire Jedi Order at his mercy through Order 66. Palpatine was only waiting for the opportunity to turn Anakin and an excuse to attack the Jedi. By the start of Episode III, extra-legal action was the only way to stop Darth Sidious and restore the Senate and constitution to their proper forms, as eventually the Rebellion did.

Did you mean "ILLEGALLY subverted the Senate..."? If you did...

You are correct, except that NOBODY knew it. The Jedi had a hunch that this was the case but they had no evidence. And technically, the Senate and Constitution WERE in thier proper forms, because all the power Palpatine had gained had been voted to him using the correct and legal methods of the Senate.

[LaCroix]

A fact missed by a mile is that Palpatine did nothing illegal by killing those jedi.

Say some generls show up in the white house and claim Dubja to be under arrest for his treason.(*sigh* If that only could happen...) They are wielding guns. Then GWB somehow draws a gun and kills those 3 guys.

As you will see, he is totally right to defend himself by shooting them, since they are trying to overthrow the government.

Same with Palpatine...

As much treason he did, in that case he was legally right, and that coup actually gave him the RIGHT to go after the jedi order.

The order 66 is a order I would have given too. It simply states that your generals are trying to overthrow the senate. Since we cannot arrest them (obviously), kill them at once. A good order when your generals are more loyal tho their "religion" than to the senate.

After the first coup/assassination attempt, the next logical step would be to execute that order, since he can bet that the jedi will be at his heels from now on. For just a religious cause, since they have no evidence for a REAL crime.

As hard as it might be to process that fact, LEGALLY, the chancellor was right to exterminate the jedi, since they were traitors to the republic.

[Shroom Man 777]

Being a powerful Force user capable of besting multiple Jedi Masters with a lightsaber in self-defense is a crime, havokeff? How?

[Stofsk]

Being a powerful Force user capable of besting multiple Jedi Masters with a lightsaber in self-defense is a crime, havokeff? How?

They had come there to arrest him, and asked him to come along quietly. Regardless of the legality of their authority, Palpatine's actions wouldn't constitute reasonable self-defence (certainly not as I understand the concept) as the Jedi didn't explode into his office in an assassination attempt.

Just because Publius is pointing out all the legal ramifications of Windu's actions as well as Palpatine's grievous crimes, doesn't mean "Oh I just beheaded three Jedi Masters and threw the fourth out of a skyrise window after electrocuting him" translates into 'self-defence', not unless you're at all acquainted with the notion of 'restraint'.