The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned" (Part II)

[VT-16]

Since the GAR article has been locked for weeks, and it wasn't there before, I'd say no-one have used it in any significant sense.

I can't help but think had this been readily known prior to I84, more people would have rationalized the article as describing a generic grand army-unit, instead of the whole shebang.

[Publius]

In Darksaber, when "Fleet Admiral" Daala murdered "thirteen of the strongest" post-Palpatine Imperialist warlords ("Supreme Warlord" Harrsk, High Admiral Teradoc, "Superior General" Delvardus, and ten others, including "High Moffs, Honored Overlords, Supreme Leaders, and other commanders with similarly pompous yet meaningless titles"), she made the following remark:

"I've visited most of you in the past year, urging you to put aside your differences. Supreme Warlord Harrsk has a fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers. High Admiral Teradoc has a force of Victory-class warships. You others have blastboats, capital ships, millions upon millions of stormtroopers -- unstoppable military might if we choose to use it as such!"

Harrsk's fleet consisted of only twelve Imperial Star Destroyers (including at least one design larger than the commonest kilometer-long variety), of which four were crippled and three destroyed during the fighting with Teradoc's fleet of 73 Victory Star Destroyers (10 of which were destroyed) immediately before the conference. After having murdered the warlords and amalgamated their forces into a zombified Empire, she had only obtained one Executor class Star Dreadnought, 45 Imperial Star Destroyers, and 112 Victory Star Destroyers.

[FTeik]

Can't those be just the ships available for offensive operations?

[Thanas]

I believe the point was that even with such a small fleet strength and the limited resources available to them, the core warlords were still able to field "millions upon millions" of stormtroopers.

[Ritterin Sophia]

one Executor class Star Dreadnought, 45 Imperial Star Destroyers, and 112 Victory Star Destroyers.

I haven't read any of the post-RotJ books, but from what I gather, the former Rebel Alliance used the remaining Victory and Imperial-class Star Destroyers with their own, to bolster the New Republics Fleet, thus why their are so few ships, would this be correct?

[Elheru Aran]

one Executor class Star Dreadnought, 45 Imperial Star Destroyers, and 112 Victory Star Destroyers.

I haven't read any of the post-RotJ books, but from what I gather, the former Rebel Alliance used the remaining Victory and Imperial-class Star Destroyers with their own, to bolster the New Republics Fleet, thus why their are so few ships, would this be correct?

Not quite. The Rebels didn't really dig using the former Imperial ships as the dagger shape was so iconic of the Empire; that, and most of the Imperial captains were brave/foolish enough to fight to the point where the ship was destroyed enough to be unsalvageable. Not until later on in the Galactic Civil War were they able to retrive ISD's in sufficient number to reinforce their Mon Cals and other craft.

[Publius]

I believe the point was that even with such a small fleet strength and the limited resources available to them, the core warlords were still able to field "millions upon millions" of stormtroopers.

Precisely so. According to the Death Star Technical Companion, Grand Moff Governor Wilhuff Tarkin had direct and personal command of four Sector Groups specifically for the purpose of providing security for the Death Star Project, in addition to whatever forces he normally commanded. The Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition, specifically states that the average SECTGRU includes "at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships," meaning that the Death Star Project alone included some 9,600 starships, including 6,400 warships and 96 Star Destroyers. This is in addition to the regular forces that were under his command, such as his arch-Sector's SECTGRU HQ, which was known to be capable of having as many as 25 additional squadrons (potentially even battle squadrons, meaning an additional 25 Star Destroyers under his direct and personal command).

The Deep Core post-Palpatine warlords had paltry naval power compared to the Galactic Empire at its height, yet they controlled "millions upon millions" of stormtroopers, even after the loss of the cloning facilities and Caridan training grounds that produced many of the Empire's innumerable white-armored shock troops. One finds difficult to accept the proposition that petty warlords so weak as these could have military forces even comparable (let alone superior) to the those of the militarized Galactic Republic in the midst of a fiercely contested galaxy-wide civil war.

[Connor MacLeod]

Given tht Tarkin was able to have 4 ISDs built for Daala without virttually anyone noticing (much less crewing them), we can safely assume that the figures Publius mentions are probably quite conservative.

[Publius]

Given tht Tarkin was able to have 4 ISDs built for Daala without virttually anyone noticing (much less crewing them), we can safely assume that the figures Publius mentions are probably quite conservative.

In the Death Star Technical Companion, the Galactic Emperor's prime minister Ars Dangor tells Tarkin that he will "have complete authority and control of Oversector Outer, which includes most of the sectors considered the Outer Rim Territories." The Outer Rim Territories Region is known from the Behind the Magic CD-ROM to be the outermost sphere of the galaxy, a region of space that encompasses millions of stars (see here for an idea of how many Sectors would actually be included in Tarkin's jurisdiction). Tarkin's augmented SECTGRU in his stronghold in Seswenna Sector and the four SECTGRUs attached to the Death Star Project cannot be more than a small fraction of the total forces available to him; he must have had literally hundreds of Star Destroyers under his command.

It is difficult to exaggerate the scale of Wilhuff Tarkin's power, which at the same time draws attention to the ridiculosity of the multimillion 'ceiling' on the Grand Army of the Republic's manpower. The petty tyrants of the Deep Core could muster no more than a mere fraction of Wilhuff Tarkin's naval might, and yet could field "millions upon millions" of stormtroopers; imagine, then, the kind of military power at Tarkin's disposal, for he controlled Sector Armies and Fleet Marine Forces throughout the entire Outer Rim, to say nothing of the fact that he obviously had 'other' military forces available to him, as "Fleet Admiral" Daala proves.

Indeed, a single augmented SECTGRU is capable of transporting 64 Army Corps (ref. Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition). Given that a Corps numbers between 50,000 and 75,000 personnel, this means that an augmented SECTGRU has the amphibious landing capacity to accommodate anywhere between 3.2 million and 4.8 million soldiers. This is a single augmented SECTGRU; a single unaugmented assault fleet can transport eight Corps (400,000 to 600,000 soldiers). Even if Tarkin commanded only a single augmented SECTGRU, he would still have control of dozens, even hundred of times more troops than the allegedly 3.2 million man GAR. To be frank, this would be rather like claiming that Douglas MacArthur, as Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers, commanded many times more forces in occupying postwar Japan than he did as Supreme Allied Commander South West Pacific Area during the height of the war.

[Ender]

In Darksaber, when "Fleet Admiral" Daala murdered "thirteen of the strongest" post-Palpatine Imperialist warlords ("Supreme Warlord" Harrsk, High Admiral Teradoc, "Superior General" Delvardus, and ten others, including "High Moffs, Honored Overlords, Supreme Leaders, and other commanders with similarly pompous yet meaningless titles"), she made the following remark:

"I've visited most of you in the past year, urging you to put aside your differences. Supreme Warlord Harrsk has a fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers. High Admiral Teradoc has a force of Victory-class warships. You others have blastboats, capital ships, millions upon millions of stormtroopers -- unstoppable military might if we choose to use it as such!"

Harrsk's fleet consisted of only twelve Imperial Star Destroyers (including at least one design larger than the commonest kilometer-long variety), of which four were crippled and three destroyed during the fighting with Teradoc's fleet of 73 Victory Star Destroyers (10 of which were destroyed) immediately before the conference. After having murdered the warlords and amalgamated their forces into a zombified Empire, she had only obtained one Executor class Star Dreadnought, 45 Imperial Star Destroyers, and 112 Victory Star Destroyers.

While useful for any discussion of the military might of the warlord factions, this is useless for discussion of the Clone Wars era army - there has been over 20 years of military expansion since then, and even then we do not know how many of those are Jango type clones vice the common conscripts that were used after the first death of Lord Sidious and the desctruction of the GeNodes.

[Mange]

Ender, I'm wondering, are you going to continue work on the excellent essay you started on?

[Darth Fanboy]

Question regarding Daala's "zombified Empire". I was always under the Impression that all she controlled was the combined assets of the Warlords, but still not the actual Empire itself, which explained how she was able to get more alien and female soldiers integrated within her forces. I was also confused on how she actually gained control of the Empire itself along with that coup, she had to in some way for Pelleaon to become the Imperial Supreme Commander later on right?

[Shadowtraveler]

Question regarding Daala's "zombified Empire". I was always under the Impression that all she controlled was the combined assets of the Warlords, but still not the actual Empire itself, which explained how she was able to get more alien and female soldiers integrated within her forces. I was also confused on how she actually gained control of the Empire itself along with that coup, she had to in some way for Pelleaon to become the Imperial Supreme Commander later on right?

Darksaber and Specter of the Past take place 6 years apart from each other. If anything, he eventually hooked up with whatever group of Imperials founded the Remnant and was made Supreme Commander by them afterwards, since he'd be one of the few remaining officers with a fleet by then.

[Ender]

Ender, I'm wondering, are you going to continue work on the excellent essay you started on?

Yes. I acquired a large number of sources recently, so I was combing through them. Right now I'm adding onto and rewritinb bits to include more information.

For example, while the NEGtWT is an utter abortion of facts and science (including in it the interesting claim that the siesmic charge creates a vacuum in space that sucks ships in. ), it has the following:

The Clone Wars proved to be a war of attrition, and the Republic sought to repair clones and Jedi with prosthetics whenever possible.

A war of attrition, not a giant chess game that lets a few Rambos beat everyone else.

In response, the Old Republic assembled its own army by leveraging mysterious cloning technology to create a near-limitless supply of troops. Like the Confederacy, the Old Republic enjoyed immense wealth, funding the construction of even more fearsome weapons of war. The Clone Wars pitted history's two largest armies agaisnt each other. The conflict spread to nearly every inhabited world.

That pretty much damns everything Traviss has tried to pass on us really.

[Fire Fly]

The Clone Wars proved to be a war of attrition, and the Republic sought to repair clones and Jedi with prosthetics whenever possible.

A war of attrition, not a giant chess game that lets a few Rambos beat everyone else.

In response, the Old Republic assembled its own army by leveraging mysterious cloning technology to create a near-limitless supply of troops. Like the Confederacy, the Old Republic enjoyed immense wealth, funding the construction of even more fearsome weapons of war. The Clone Wars pitted history's two largest armies agaisnt each other. The conflict spread to nearly every inhabited world.

That pretty much damns everything Traviss has tried to pass on us really.

How do you keep finding such juicy tidbits? I bow to you sir. I look forward to your revised essay. I've tried combing through various sources but my findings were not nearly as enlightening as yours. I did see in the Complete Inside the Worlds book (I believe it was) that there was a holographic representation of the Battle of Coruscant and I counted over 100 Venator-class Star Destroyers. I'm not sure if it can be taken at face value or what not, though.

The only remaining question is, "how much more overwhelming evidence must be presented from books, movies, mathematical and logical extrapolations, and common sense before this "debate" is put to a rest?" I use quotation marks because it really is not a debate anymore, since the evidence is so overwhelming.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Can you post a link to your essay, and quote the seismic charge bullshit?

[Ender]

How do you keep finding such juicy tidbits? I bow to you sir. I look forward to your revised essay. I've tried combing through various sources but my findings were not nearly as enlightening as yours. I did see in the Complete Inside the Worlds book (I believe it was) that there was a holographic representation of the Battle of Coruscant and I counted over 100 Venator-class Star Destroyers. I'm not sure if it can be taken at face value or what not, though.

There are a bunch of bits I've seen bandied about I need to check up on, for example someone says that in the game Republic Commando Jango trained groups of 1000. And then ther is the math of Acclamators present and LAATs at Geonosis.

The only remaining question is, "how much more overwhelming evidence must be presented from books, movies, mathematical and logical extrapolations, and common sense before this "debate" is put to a rest?" I use quotation marks because it really is not a debate anymore, since the evidence is so overwhelming.

I dunno. Its not really even being contested anymore except by a few die-hards. I'd point out that even Mickey has given up trying to defend it, and her fellow authors don't even support her on it (look at the bits in the NEGtD or Able's statements about Lord of War in his blog).

I fully expect Bloodlines to push her unique views about it again, and I'm looking to acquire a copy of A Practical Man to see what if anything it has to say. While I would hope she will either make it ambigious or completely stay away from the subject, her actions don't paint her as that mature. And I don't have high hopes for the other two RC novels either.

Can you post a link to your essay, and quote the seismic charge bullshit?

http://www.geocities.com/enderandloki/SSTmain.html

And while not really relevent to the topic

The initial blast causes a brie vacuum in space that sucks victems toward the heart of the explosion

Yeah.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Question regarding Daala's "zombified Empire". I was always under the Impression that all she controlled was the combined assets of the Warlords, but still not the actual Empire itself, which explained how she was able to get more alien and female soldiers integrated within her forces. I was also confused on how she actually gained control of the Empire itself along with that coup, she had to in some way for Pelleaon to become the Imperial Supreme Commander later on right?

The Empire no longer existed. It ceased existing as a central state when Xandel Carivus was executed and his administration disintegrated. She and Pelleaon moved seized warlord forces and assets into Imperial holdout worlds in the Rim, where Pelleaon would carve out the "Imperial Remnant."

[Lazarus]

The Empire no longer existed. It ceased existing as a central state when Xandel Carivus was executed and his administration disintegrated. She and Pelleaon moved seized warlord forces and assets into Imperial holdout worlds in the Rim, where Pelleaon would carve out the "Imperial Remnant."

Are you sure?

Wookieepedia says:

The Imperial Remnant was the name of the government for what remained of the Galactic Empire following the collapse of the functioning government of the New Order, but more specifically following the reunification of the Deep Core warlords by Admiral Daala and the subsequent campaigns of expansion and stability under Gilad Pellaeon between 12–13 ABY.

Admiral Daala said:

One Empire, one fleet—only this will guarantee us victory

Wookieepedia on the death of the warlords:

Though the stable government associated with the modern Imperial Remnant had not yet been established, it was this event that would form the process by which that government would take shape.

Wookieepedia on the fleet:

She then placed Pellaeon in command of a fleet of thirteen of forty-five amassed Imperial-class Star Destroyers and her loyal third-in-command, Colonel Cronus, in charge of Crimson Command, a fleet of one hundred twelve Victory-class Star Destroyers.

Suggesting that these forces were indeed offensive groups only, and not garrison forces, else such commands would make little sense.

Voren Na'al:

Thanks to Daala's unification efforts, the Empire was stable, though still only a shadow of its former self. If anyone could restore the Empire… Pellaeon appeared to be the one

It is also said that the Council of Moffs was formed after Pellaeon's promotion to Supreme Commander, and they then controlled the unified Imperial forces.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Erm.. one must distinguish between the Usurpers and the Imperial Government descending from Palpatine's administration.

As such, the warlords are considered usurpers.

[FTeik]

I would even go so far and claim, that the empire died with Palpatine's final death on Onderon. Many of those who elected Carvius to emperor weren't even part of the "original" imperial government.

NEGtWT, page 87 wrote:

The initial blast causes a brie vacuum in space that sucks victems toward the heart of the explosion

Not that I'm too found of Blackman as an author of a tech-guide, but couldn't this refer to the seismic charges intended use on the ground and inside an atmosphere? As in space not meaning the nothingness between stars, planets and moons. I know it is reaching a lot, but nobody writing in a SciFi-universe can be that dumb.

[VT-16]

I remember some years back people speculated that the seismic charges were meant for ground use, not in space, the way the wave fanned out in 2 dimensions. Might this be affirmation of that?

[Mange]

Ender, I'm wondering, are you going to continue work on the excellent essay you started on?

Yes. I acquired a large number of sources recently, so I was combing through them. Right now I'm adding onto and rewritinb bits to include more information.

For example, while the NEGtWT is an utter abortion of facts and science (including in it the interesting claim that the siesmic charge creates a vacuum in space that sucks ships in. ), it has the following:

The Clone Wars proved to be a war of attrition, and the Republic sought to repair clones and Jedi with prosthetics whenever possible.

A war of attrition, not a giant chess game that lets a few Rambos beat everyone else.

In response, the Old Republic assembled its own army by leveraging mysterious cloning technology to create a near-limitless supply of troops. Like the Confederacy, the Old Republic enjoyed immense wealth, funding the construction of even more fearsome weapons of war. The Clone Wars pitted history's two largest armies agaisnt each other. The conflict spread to nearly every inhabited world.

That pretty much damns everything Traviss has tried to pass on us really.

"Spread to nearly every inhabited world" Now we're really talking! This effectively buries the three million figure and the "brushfire war" nonsense. Ender, I bow my head in respect!

[VT-16]

"Spread to nearly every inhabited world" Now we're really talking!

Really makes the GCW seem like kids fighting in a sandbox, doesn't it?

[FTeik]

I remember some years back people speculated that the seismic charges were meant for ground use, not in space, the way the wave fanned out in 2 dimensions. Might this be affirmation of that?

From its greek origin "seismic" refers to an earthquake. The name of the weapon itself implies, that it is a ground-weapon.