LOTR - Stravo's Gripes (SPOILERS)

[neoolong]

In the other movie they wear the elven capes and stuff but we never seen Galadriel giving it. Does anyone know if this is one of the cut scenes ?

Yes. The gifting scene with the daggers, rope, bow, capes, etc. are in the Extended version.

I noticed that Sam didn't get the mallorn seed and Lorien soil from Galadriel. That does not bode well to me...

They didn't show them getting everything. Like Gimli getting his gift. Though since they did show Sam getting the rope, I can't really see a way for it have been done.

[Dalton]

I noticed that Sam didn't get the mallorn seed and Lorien soil from Galadriel. That does not bode well to me...

They didn't show them getting everything. Like Gimli getting his gift. Though since they did show Sam getting the rope, I can't really see a way for it have been done.

Gimli's gift was implied (in the extended edition anyway; "She gave me three."). However, with Sam and what I have heard about the fate of Saruman, I'm not counting on seeing much of the second half of Return of the King.

[Zaia]

I noticed that Sam didn't get the mallorn seed and Lorien soil from Galadriel. That does not bode well to me...

They didn't show them getting everything. Like Gimli getting his gift. Though since they did show Sam getting the rope, I can't really see a way for it have been done.

Pardon me if my ignorance gets in the way again, but couldn't P.J. just show some of that scene to keep you in suspense if you do know the story? Like, show some of the gifts but not all, to keep you wondering how that will affect the last bit of the story? Surely P.J. knows how many audience members have read the books...and he himself must have a great love of the story to have created such a gorgeous version of it. I would think I'd like to make you wonder if I was him.

Just a thought.

[Joe]

As for everyone's points about character alterations; reasonable, but don't forget that FoTR had a great deal of the same thing. Aragorn, for example, was much more secure in the novel; he became the heir to Isildur and he was ready to lead his people to victory, as opposed to the much more insecure Aragorn of the movie. Elrond was quite different, too; 1) he was not an asshole, and 2) he was like a father to Aragorn; in the movie he seemed to look down upon him. Lothlorien was also quite different; in the movie, the elves were basically like "FUCK YOU HUMANS," but in the book they welcomed them with open arms.

That said, I do not particularly mind these character alterations, because on the whole, you can't possibly deny that Peter Jackson has not sacrificed the spirit of the original novel in order to make it more accessible to the mainstream. He achieved a perfect balance.

One major gripe, though; killing Haldir of Lorien. This is somewhat akin to KJA's killing of Crix Madine in Darksaber.

[Dalton]

One major gripe, though; killing Haldir of Lorien. This is somewhat akin to KJA's killing of Crix Madine in Darksaber.

Was that Haldir? I wasn't totally sure. I remember him being called a different name.

[Dalton]

I noticed that Sam didn't get the mallorn seed and Lorien soil from Galadriel. That does not bode well to me...

They didn't show them getting everything. Like Gimli getting his gift. Though since they did show Sam getting the rope, I can't really see a way for it have been done.

Pardon me if my ignorance gets in the way again, but couldn't P.J. just show some of that scene to keep you in suspense if you do know the story? Like, show some of the gifts but not all, to keep you wondering how that will affect the last bit of the story? Surely P.J. knows how many audience members have read the books...and he himself must have a great love of the story to have created such a gorgeous version of it. I would think I'd like to make you wonder if I was him.

Just a thought.

A good point, but there are other things that make me wonder...

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Elves at Helm's Deep: I think there aren't that many as compared as to what was shown in the Last Alliance to visibly show how the numbers of the elves had lessened in the 3,019 years since then. And having most of them die shows

Faramir- He lets Frodo go knowing he might be put to death by his father for it. I think at the end, he became the Faramir of the books, but we'll have to wait for ROTK to see. I do think the part about him wanting to take the ring to Gondor instead of for himself was a little truer to the book; he may have merely been trying to win his father's affection.

Shelob- Was moved to ROTK.

I don't know who said that Peter Jackson thought he was a better writer than Tolkien, but I know that when the movies were annoinced he said that people will still remember the books long after his movies are forgotten. Doesn't sound like he thinks of himself as better than Tolkien to me.

Also with the Ents, I enjoyed seeing Treebeard turn- upon seeing teh trees cut down around Isengard, it was obvious he was going to act finally. I love that change because we get to see him make that decision to tear down Isengard.

[Joe]

Yes, if the Ents smackdown had been excluded from the movie I would have been very disappointed. That's my favorite part from the book.

[neoolong]

I noticed that Sam didn't get the mallorn seed and Lorien soil from Galadriel. That does not bode well to me...

They didn't show them getting everything. Like Gimli getting his gift. Though since they did show Sam getting the rope, I can't really see a way for it have been done.

Pardon me if my ignorance gets in the way again, but couldn't P.J. just show some of that scene to keep you in suspense if you do know the story? Like, show some of the gifts but not all, to keep you wondering how that will affect the last bit of the story? Surely P.J. knows how many audience members have read the books...and he himself must have a great love of the story to have created such a gorgeous version of it. I would think I'd like to make you wonder if I was him.

Just a thought.

Part of it is that it wouldn't make sense. Like if some guy is totally shown getting one gift, and then later he says he got two, it doesn't make sense for him not to get them both together. But that's just me.

[Zaia]

Part of it is that it wouldn't make sense. Like if some guy is totally shown getting one gift, and then later he says he got two, it doesn't make sense for him not to get them both together. But that's just me.

I guess it depends on how it's staged, the manner in which it's filmed. And since I haven't seen the extended version, I'm really talking out of my ass here. It was just a theory, because I don't want to think of P.J. as an egotistical bastardo who thinks his version of the story is better.

[Stormbringer]

2) he was like a father to Aragorn; in the movie he seemed to look down upon him.

He did love Aragorn like a son but according to The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen he made him jumpm through some very high hoops before he would let Arwen even consider Aragorn for marriage. Remember, he knows already what it's like to loose kin like that. And as they say, the parting of Elrond and Arwen "will endure until the world's end". To say he required a perfect gentleman is an understatement.

[Perinquus]

I don't mind so much about introducing the elves to Helm's Deep. I'm not crazy about it either, but it doesn't seem like a change that hurts the picture. Ditto for the splicing in of the scenes between Aragorn and Arwen. In the book, Tolkien put the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, but you really can't tack an appendix onto the end of a movie. That won't work; so if Jackson wants to tell that story (and it is a great story to tell - very poignant and moving; all about making sacrifices for the one you love) he has to weave it into the main story somehow. And honestly, I thought he did a pretty good job of showing just how hard and heartbreaking a choice that would be for both Arwen and Elrond.

I do agree that the change to Theoden's character was both unnecessary and unwise. And I too am really irritated at what they did to Faramir. In the book, he was clearly shown to have the wisdom and foresight that his otherwise noble and admirable brother sadly lacked. In the movie Jackson's turned him into just a clone of Boromir. And since he requires far less great a jolt to his senses to make him repent of his plans to take the ring, he's a watered down clone of Boromir. Boromir light. Bah!

As for leaving Shelob out... now that I hear that there is to be no Scouring of the Shire, it actually does make sense. Putting Shelob in now, and leaving out the Scouring of the Shire would indeed leave Frodo with rather a small part to play in "Return of the King" in terms of screen time, and since he is the main character, that's not really something they can afford to do. I will miss the Scouring of the Shire, but I understand why they are planning to omit it, just as I understood the omission of Tom Bombadil. With books of the size and detail of these, you just have to accept that there simply is not any way to put all of it onscreen and still have a picture of reasonable length.

[Rathark]

5) No Shelob C'MON. Tolkien had a PERFECT ending for TTT. Frodo fights Shelob, is taken prisoner at Minas Morgul leaving Sam wondering how he was going to save Frodo. HELLO??!? Would not THAT have been the perfect ending? It would have been akin to the Han Solo in Carbonite thing...leaving people to wonder for a whole year HOW is Sam going to save Frodo (for those few of us who have not read the book) So that leaves P. Jackson with three hours in ROTK to tell the tale of Frodo's fight with Shelob, his torture and rescue at Minas Morgul, the Siege of Gondor, the march and battle at the Black Gate, the defeat of Saruman, and the Destruction of the Ring....OK, I predict a rushed last movie if this holds true.

I'm going to see the movie in 3 hours, and I've only just found out about the "no Shelob" thing. Naturally I'm a bit disappointed (and I totally agree with you on the "Han Solo in carbonite" parallel). I hope the rest of the movie makes up for it. Apparently, those who haven't read the novel like TTT better than FOTR, while most Tolkien fans love both films but have mixed feelings about the liberties taken.

[Stormbringer]

Apparently, those who haven't read the novel like TTT better than FOTR, while most Tolkien fans love both films but have mixed feelings about the liberties taken.

That's about the fairest description of the reaction. The Two Towers is still a great movie but some of the changes hurt it compared to the original story. Go see it with an open mind and plenty of popcorn and you'll have fun.

[Joe]

You're supposed to evaluate a movie on its own terms. Do not let the liberties taken detract from your opinion of the movie; by all means, argue that the movie is not a particularly loyal adaptation of Tolkien, but don't argue that the movie is worse on that account.

[Stormbringer]

You're supposed to evaluate a movie on its own terms. Do not let the liberties taken detract from your opinion of the movie; by all means, argue that the movie is not a particularly loyal adaptation of Tolkien, but don't argue that the movie is worse on that account.

Except they are supposed to be an adapatation of the books. So comparing them to the books is a completely vaild thing to do.

[nechronius]

You're supposed to evaluate a movie on its own terms. Do not let the liberties taken detract from your opinion of the movie; by all means, argue that the movie is not a particularly loyal adaptation of Tolkien, but don't argue that the movie is worse on that account.

Except they are supposed to be an adapatation of the books. So comparing them to the books is a completely vaild thing to do.

Only to some degree. I think some people get too carried away due to their fanaticism of the books themselves. Be happy enough that this may help to bridge a new generation to read the books. And if you really intensely disliked the changes made in the movie, then by all means don't watch the last part and stick to the books. Those who watch the movie aren't going to mind. And for the record, I would have preferred that the movie more strongly followed the book.

[Stravo]

I'm just going on the record to say that I did like the movie, it was well done, well acted and the action scenes were exciting. Its just that part of my enjoyment was muted because I instantly saw the liberties taken and they were liberties that just irked me or made me groan when I saw them because some of them are just sad Hollywood cliches (Elves arriving at Helm's Deep)

But make no mistake about it, I intend to see it a few more times.

[nechronius]

I'm just going on the record to say that I did like the movie, it was well done, well acted and the action scenes were exciting. Its just that part of my enjoyment was muted because I instantly saw the liberties taken and they were liberties that just irked me or made me groan when I saw them because some of them are just sad Hollywood cliches (Elves arriving at Helm's Deep)

But make no mistake about it, I intend to see it a few more times.

I'm with you there. As soon as the elves arrived I muttered "deus ex machina..." Much of the battle scenes seemed quite implausible (Gandalf's charge down a 40 degree incline) but the spears actually didn't bother me as much (the sun was at their backs, partially blinding an army that is probably more suited to attacking in the dark).

[Joe]

A Beautiful Mind was a great movie, in my opinion; however, it was an ludicrously inaccurate portrayal of the life of John Nash.

As a adaptation of John Nash's life, it pretty much sucked, but as a movie it was wonderful. Just throwing out an example.

[D.Turtle]

About the Ending of TTT:
Isn't it in the book, that Sam thinks Frodo is dead and takes the Ring to destroy it?

[Luke Starkiller]

About the Ending of TTT:
Isn't it in the book, that Sam thinks Frodo is dead and takes the Ring to destroy it?

That was moved to the next movie; that is at the end of the fight with Shelob.

[Raptor 597]

So they killed Saruman yet? I haven't seen it and I'll be pissed.

Well Saruman doens't die he is released as a spirit that is blown away after looking to the West. Remember he is a Maiar, undying.

Yes, a Minor God. But the nonetheless I'd rathered see him as the scurging of the Shire in ROTK.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'm just going on the record to say that I did like the movie, it was well done, well acted and the action scenes were exciting. Its just that part of my enjoyment was muted because I instantly saw the liberties taken and they were liberties that just irked me or made me groan when I saw them because some of them are just sad Hollywood cliches (Elves arriving at Helm's Deep)

But make no mistake about it, I intend to see it a few more times.

In that same light I think the main reason for many of my complaints is because I compare these things which are so obviously divergent from the theme of the books with what Jackson got right. I mean when I saw Grima he WAS wormtounge, when I saw Eomer, when I saw Faramir (until he was castrated), when I saw Treebeard, when I saw Theoden (again until castrated) they were so REAL that it was painful to know that Jackson came so close. Its like being sad about a performance that's only a 9.9 instead of a 10, you come so agonizingly close to getting it all right that the errors that are made are all the more glaring for the perfection of the rest.

[Wedge]

2) The Castration of King Theoden ...and he even wonders if his men will stay loyal to him during the fight. His resolve has to be constantly butressed by Gandalf and Aragorn. WTF?!?!? Theoden was a kicker of ass and taker of names in the books. His resolve did not falter. And then blasphemy of blasphemies, Aragorn speaks the lines that Theoden was supposed to speak about riding forth into one last battle. FUCK. One of my favoriite lines in the books was Theoden when HE BUTRESSES ARAGORN'S RESOLVE by saying that they will ride forth and make their deaths worthy of song. GOD that pissed me off when I saw that.

He doesn't doubt about the loyalti of his men, he knows that they are scared, but this doesn't mean that they are going to run away and betray him. And in the movie THEODEN says that they will make their deaths worthy of a song, Aragorn only convinces him to charge with the horses.

4) Additional Scenes that added NOTHING to the story When I saw some of these additonal scenes (Galadriel's telepathic speech with Elrond was particulalrly cringe inducing) I thought, Pete Jackson wants to write his own LOTR. He is like B&B in the sense that TTT should be given the same monicker as Boobyprise (inspired by LOTR) The Warg attack, COMPLETELY UNNECCESARY FLUFF that only set us up for some contrived Aragorn bullshit scenes that were useless and added NOTHING to the story. UGH. Frodo being taken to Osgoliath....WHY??!!?!? What purpose did that scene show other than...ohhhh...Frodo is being corrupted by the Ring. Give me a fucking break.

Mind you I am NOT advocating that some fleshing out should not be done, I was particulalry impressed with how the Eowen and Aragorn romantic triangle was played out. BUt guess what, that served a PURPOSE in the story, Warg scene..NOTHING...think of it this way, if it had been edited it out would you have missed it??.

Telepathic speech between elves? I didn't interpret it that way, I think that Elrond was remembering a conversation he had with Galadriel, that would also explain why the elves that show up in Helm's Deep are send by Elrond, but the "commanding" elve is from Lothlorien.
If you liked how the romantic triangle was played out, you should understand that the fall of Aragorn helped to show what Eowen feels about him.

The magical horses: One we have Theoden in his hall and Aragorn says lets ride forth, camera cuts to the orcs chopping the last of the door down, camera cuts back, Theoden and Company are all mounted and ready for battle...OK, those are some magical horses to just appear like that in a span of seconds. Two, the charge of Eomer down a STEEP ROCKY INCLINE with heavy horse wearing full armor....broken legs perhaps?...those are some tough magical horses.

I think, these are minor details, that should not be given such importance. It's called suspension of disbelief.