Vader killed at Yavin

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-08-06 12:58am

Suppose that Han shot and outright destroyed Vader's TIE interceptor.

I don't think it's unlikely, considering that he was too focused and never Force-detected the Millennium Falcon looming behind him. Hell, he never even consulted his radar.

Now, ignoring the ramifications for the Skywalker clan, what happens in the Galaxy at large? The Emperor's most feared enforcer is dead- who does he replace him with. The Sith lord is gone- what does he do now? Of course, the Rebellion is at least somewhat strengthened- but is the Empire weakened from within as well?

This sort of thing has got to encourage people like Grand Moff Trachta and Moff Kadir. Not them, per se, since they're dead. But like-minded Imperials.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-08-06 01:34am

The Empire may be weakened in the short-run, but not critically. After all, the fleet and armies are still present, the Emperor holds all the political cards he used to.

If Vader dies at Yavin, it is not at all certain that the Emperor would have died at Endor. In fact he probably would have survived, since a key reason for his being there at all was to turn Luke. So in the long-run the Empire would be stronger.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2006-08-06 01:44am

That's an interesting point. Would the Emperor even have been at Endor if he had no reasonable chance at capturing Luke? Without Vader, Palptine doesn't even know Luke is there; even though it's reasonable to assume he still would be, Palpatine has no way to lure him out of hiding and bring him aboard the Death Star.

For that matter, would the Rebels have survived? Part of the Emperor's plan was not to crush their fleet right off the bat (as he certainly could have done) in order to draw Luke to the Dark Side. Without Vader, presumably, the Rebel fleet would have been massacred long before Han and Co. deactivate the shield.

phred · Post by **phred** » 2006-08-06 01:53am

the emperor would have to pick up a new trainee. Luke? Mara? someone else entirely?
in the meantime he would probably get Thrawn or some other ruthless commander to fill in the role of enforcer.
the Endor plan would probably have been successful without Vader there to kill him

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-08-06 03:32am

Publius points out that Jerec would be the most likely replacement for Vader as Sith Lord. Certainly wouldn't be able to replace him as enforcer though.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-08-06 05:28am

In the short term the empire might be weakened, but Vader wasn't irreplacable. Palpatine could have filled the spot with Jerec, Sedriss or Nial Declann until he had grown/cloned/trained another apprentice.

Note, that at this point of time Palpatine had already figured out the immortality-thing (at least in a crude version) so he no longer had a real need for an apprentice.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-08-06 06:11am

The Emperor would suspect a new Force strong individual in the Alliance's ranks and seek out who he is.

A Skywalker would be ringing bells immediately.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-08-06 07:29am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Emperor would suspect a new Force strong individual in the Alliance's ranks and seek out who he is.

A Skywalker would be ringing bells immediately.

Seek him out and assassinate him before he can get any real training. Boba Fett gets a bumper payday.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-08-06 07:59am

Lord Pounder wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Emperor would suspect a new Force strong individual in the Alliance's ranks and seek out who he is.

A Skywalker would be ringing bells immediately.
Seek him out and assassinate him before he can get any real training. Boba Fett gets a bumper payday.

I was under the impression that one of the motives of having Anakin Skywalker as apprentice was because of his raw power and that he was most likely to fall to the Dark Side? Will not Luke serve as a suitable replacement for his father?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2006-08-06 12:35pm

Luke would be a great replacement but without his father as bait, and having witnessed the atrocities of the Empire, it is hard to believe even the Emperor could have found a hook to lure him (at least without knowing about Leia). Given that he already had several dark force users at his command it is not hard to believe that he would not just turn to their ranks and not even attempt something as elaborate as what we saw in RotJ.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » 2006-08-06 01:38pm

Well if Jerec didn't work out or any of his other hands, Palpy would probably just had Mara or someone else bear him a force sensitive child. I wouldn't put that past him.

Politika: Prince Xizor gains a few points.

Militarily: Ozzel keeps his life for a longer period. Piett gets another ship. Thrawn goes the same way.

Rebel Alliance: who knows.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-08-06 03:04pm

Well, there is still Leia, and one wonders if she will be captured by the Inquistors and discovered to be a Force senstive.. and if a DNA test is done..

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-06 03:10pm

Would the Emperor even want another Sith Lord? If we go by the EU, he at some time between ROTS and ROTJ had figured out how to send his "essence" into his clone. The need for another Sith Lord to carry on the line wouldn't be neccisary, and would only serve as a potential threat to his rule and himself.

I know the OP says to ignore the ramifications to the Skywalker clan, but I don't think you can. Palpatine's rise to power pivoted on Anakin's turn to the Dark Side. And his defeat could pivot on Luke's own rise in power.

So with no Vader, you have no one obsessed with finding the rebel that destroyed the Death Star. Even if Ozzel's fleet is still looking for Luke and the rebels, he would have ignored the probe droid's transmission from Hoth.

Also with no Vader you have no one to lure Luke away from Dagobah. Luke would have left Yoda a fully trained Jedi Knight. More than likely armed with the info about Anakin/Vader being his father, who his mother was, history of the Jedi, what caused their downfall, the Emperor's role in all these things and whatever new techniques and teachings to train new Jedi Yoda had come up with in the last 20 years of communing with Qui-Gon and OBi-Wan. It would have truly been the return of the Jedi.

Getting back to the Empire itself. The trap that Palpatine set for the rebels in ROTJ might not have been laid out for them. The DSII would be completed without the achilles heel of the DSI and basically the galaxy would be fucked. Tarkin's Doctrine would be in full effect and the rebel alliance would be constantly on the run. What planet would want to help the rebels and risk confronting the same fate as Alderan?

Luke would have to somehow confront the Emperor and not just kill him, but declare himself Emperor just to maintain control until he could transfer control of the Empire back to a new Senate and restore the Republic.

A couple other thoughts...

Where would Xizor fit in now that he wouldn't be dead?

Would it be possible that Leia would get trained by Yoda?

Jabba wouldn't be dead either.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-08-06 04:12pm

I like Xizor, but I doubt that anything major will happen to him. Like Wanderer says, he gains a few political points. But it's not as if he's going to become the Emperor's new right-hand man, no matter what anyone thinks.

I really wonder what Force-ghost Obi-wan will advise Yoda to do. Since the Star Wars universe just got a lot less cinematic, they might as well train both Force twins.

As for declaring himself Emperor- I think that's rather unnecessary, though I guess it's possible. Couldn't he have done that in (a slightly altered) ROTJ anyways?

The possibilty of another cabal of moffs trying to overthrow the Emperor is still very interesting to me. They probably couldn't succeed, but it could help the Rebellion somehow.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-08-06 09:03pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Emperor would suspect a new Force strong individual in the Alliance's ranks and seek out who he is.

A Skywalker would be ringing bells immediately.
Seek him out and assassinate him before he can get any real training. Boba Fett gets a bumper payday.
I was under the impression that one of the motives of having Anakin Skywalker as apprentice was because of his raw power and that he was most likely to fall to the Dark Side? Will not Luke serve as a suitable replacement for his father?

By the time of ANH/ESB Palaptine doesn't need an apprentice. Even back in the days of the PT he wasn't exactly following the Sith rules. With Vader dead the best lever to turn Luke to the Darkside is gone. Remember in ESB Palpatine wanted Skywalker dead, it was Vader who suggested turning him. Like i say a boy bearly aware of his abilites would be no trouble for a professional asassin like Boba Fett.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-08-07 02:18pm

So, I suppose that with Vader gone, Palpatine is inconvenienced but isn't really weakened too much?

Again, I'm wondering if it was possible that any opportunistic Admirals may now take the chance to stage a coup against the apparent start of a Sith theocracy, which has just disbanded the Imperial Senate but is also now half gone.