How did Palpatine turn the senate against the Jedi ?

[Eframepilot]

Given there were still people who opposed Palpatine...going the extra legal route was the dumbest thing to do since, he could literally insure that people will follow his side. Hell, it gave him fuel to tell people one of the organizations they trusted, tried to kill their beloved chancellor.

That is why he won, they played into his hands, and they did so like dumb sheep. They were some arrogant that it took them years to even acknowledge the Sith lord problem and by then they had not clue one what the fuck he was doing and opted for the only method they thought they had.

But it was the only method they had. As I said above, no legal method would have worked. The Jedi had only circumstantial evidence connecting Palpatine to Sidious and his "confession" to Anakin (in which he didn't actually confess to anything specifically) would never hold up in court or the Senate. Bringing legal measures against Palpatine would fail, as he had too much control over the legal institutions and could quash the Jedi and their Senatorial allies with his increasing political powers. He could even fabricate some excuse to blame the Jedi for the Clone Wars and initiate Order 66 at any time. By the midpoint of Episode III, the Jedi existed at Palpatine's whim and he awaited only an opportunity to turn Anakin to destroy them.

On the other hand, if the Jedi went to Palpatine's office and assassinated him, they win. Game over. Sure, the aftermath would have been messy, but dealing with the fallout from a dead Palpatine would have been infinitely better than dealing with a live Darth Sidious who commands the entire galaxy and an army of clones loyal to his every word.

The only thing wrong with Mace Windu's plan to kill Palpatine was that he failed to kill Palpatine.

[Ghost Rider]

Given there were still people who opposed Palpatine...going the extra legal route was the dumbest thing to do since, he could literally insure that people will follow his side. Hell, it gave him fuel to tell people one of the organizations they trusted, tried to kill their beloved chancellor.

That is why he won, they played into his hands, and they did so like dumb sheep. They were some arrogant that it took them years to even acknowledge the Sith lord problem and by then they had not clue one what the fuck he was doing and opted for the only method they thought they had.

But it was the only method they had. As I said above, no legal method would have worked. The Jedi had only circumstantial evidence connecting Palpatine to Sidious and his "confession" to Anakin (in which he didn't actually confess to anything specifically) would never hold up in court or the Senate. Bringing legal measures against Palpatine would fail, as he had too much control over the legal institutions and could quash the Jedi and their Senatorial allies with his increasing political powers. He could even fabricate some excuse to blame the Jedi for the Clone Wars and initiate Order 66 at any time. By the midpoint of Episode III, the Jedi existed at Palpatine's whim and he awaited only an opportunity to turn Anakin to destroy them.

On the other hand, if the Jedi went to Palpatine's office and assassinated him, they win. Game over. Sure, the aftermath would have been messy, but dealing with the fallout from a dead Palpatine would have been infinitely better than dealing with a live Darth Sidious who commands the entire galaxy and an army of clones loyal to his every word.

The only thing wrong with Mace Windu's plan to kill Palpatine was that he failed to kill Palpatine.

They failed long before that. Given they were thinking that they can go from serving the Republic to leading it. Yoda was correct...their arrogance brought them there, and Palpatine already won. Even killing him would've thrown the entire republic into chaos and still had to do something about the Separtists

Honestly, the point is, Palpatine had won...and having them take an illegal coup cemented why he had won. Their arrogance over the last 12 years insured he could mold the Republic into whatever he wanted and they did fuck all to stop him.

[Lord Pounder]

The main arrogance centred in the fact they thought that 4 Jedi would be enough to take Palpatine peacefully, maybe Windu did plan to take it for himself and thats why he acted to fast when with a bit of planning the situation could have been handled much easier.

If i where Windu i'd have emptied the entire Academy to secure Palpatines building, I'd not have stepped near his actual office without the entire Jedi Council including Anakin. They had to have an idea how powerful Palpatine was if he could work so closely with the Jedi for so long and not be detected as a Force user. Bring in the clones too. If the Clones where shown evidence that Palpatine was behind the Seppies they'd have stayed loyal to the Jedi.

[Eframepilot]

They failed long before that. Given they were thinking that they can go from serving the Republic to leading it. Yoda was correct...their arrogance brought them there, and Palpatine already won. Even killing him would've thrown the entire republic into chaos and still had to do something about the Separtists

Honestly, the point is, Palpatine had won...and having them take an illegal coup cemented why he had won. Their arrogance over the last 12 years insured he could mold the Republic into whatever he wanted and they did fuck all to stop him.

I think that the Separatists would have caved easily with Grievous and Sidious both dead, but yeah, it would definitely have been a Pyrrhic victory. The Republic was already dead. It's possible that Palpatine even had a contingency to initiate Order 66 in the event of his death.

Bring in the clones too. If the Clones where shown evidence that Palpatine was behind the Seppies they'd have stayed loyal to the Jedi.

Ooh. Bad idea. All Palpatine has to say is, "Initiate Order 66," and the clones will turn on the Jedi. They were programmed to follow orders, not think for themselves.

[Tychu]

1. Its stated time and again in ROTS and EU that the Jedi are entrusted to the Republic not its ruler (ie. Palps).

And though the President is technically the Commander-in-Chief, the US Army is entrusted to the United States, not its ruler.

2. IN AOTC The Jedi are seen hanging around the Senate and they talk about how far Palpatine has gone with his power and when he should be stopped

That's just proof that they were starting to plot Palpatine's downfall for years. It doesn't present proof that their coup is legal.

3. Obi Wan talks to Anakin about why Palpatine cant be trusted saying that he has changed the rules to stay in power much longer than he should have

He changed the rules to stay in power, but guess what? He did it legally. By that logic, the US Government should be completely overhauled every time a Constitutional Amendment is ratified.

4. Palpatine really has no power to impose anything on the Jedi (as in point #1) There fore the Jedi and the Chancellor are 2 seperate entities. So if you want to get technicall
a coup is a force from within the government trying to take power or overthrow the leadership. Since the Jedi get their power from the Senate and not the Chancellor and the Chancellor is elected and gets his power from the Senate as well the Senate is the leader of the Republic

The Jedi get their power from existing. We only really see characters that are friendly to the Jedi, but it seems to me that there are a lot of people that tolerate the Jedi only because they tend to keep to themselves.

Besides, the Chancellor is elected for the sole intent of leading the Senate. You might as well say that George W. Bush isn't the leader of the US, or Tony Blair isn't the leader of the UK, or Vladimir Putin isn't the leader of Russia.

Besides, your definition is just splitting hairs. If I broke into the White House with a gun in an attempt to depose Bush and install myself as POTUS, that would be an attempted coup, even though I have no position within the US Government..

It wasnt until Palpatine changed all the damn rules that he became the ultamate power. Therefore Palpatine made the Jedi seem to have had this whole illegal coup. The Jedi never planned on overthrowing the Senate and putting the Jedi Council in place of the senate they went in to arrest Palpatine and bring him before teh Senate.

ROTS movie, Mace speculates that the Jedi Order will probably have to take control of the Senate after deposing Palpatine to ensure a peaceful transition.

[/quote]

Quite honestly you cant compare the US government to the Old Republic. The President of the United States is elected by the people and for the people as the cliche goes.
The Old Republic is not like this. The Presendent or Chancillor is elected by elected officials, these people dont have to have the mass consent on what the hell they do after they are elected
The Old Republic is pretty much based on the Italian form of government, just without a prime minister and president of the republic. Its one person in the Old Republic. And guess what, if the Senators dont like what the hell the Prime Minister or President of the Republic is doing they quickly go to vote and vote a new guy in.

This is what the Old Republic did with Valorum and should have done to Palpatine if he wasnt such a great coniver and beurocrat

Once again how is the Jedi's plan to arrest Palpatine a coup. They didnt want to overthrow the Republic, just the Chancellor. In all likely hood If Mace and friends succeded and took Palpatine to the Senate with proof that he is in fact the leader of the Sepratists then there would still be a Republic under the leadership of a different Chancelor. The Jedi would not have taken over the government and made a new one. A coup overthrows a government the Jedi didnt plan that

[Havok]

Bring in the clones too. If the Clones where shown evidence that Palpatine was behind the Seppies they'd have stayed loyal to the Jedi.

Ooh. Bad idea. All Palpatine has to say is, "Initiate Order 66," and the clones will turn on the Jedi. They were programmed to follow orders, not think for themselves.

Doesn't the begining of Dark Lord dispute that?

[Civil War Man]

Quite honestly you cant compare the US government to the Old Republic. The President of the United States is elected by the people and for the people as the cliche goes. <snip rest>

Frankly all of that's a red herring. You think the US analogy doesn't work? Fine, replace it with a different representative-based government, and you'll get exactly the same thing. Saying the US analogy doesn't work does not answer the following problems to your argument:
1. Palpatine is in fact the chief executive of the Republic.
2. Palpatine used technically legal methods to ensure his ability to stay in power
3. By attempting to remove him from office by force, regardless of whether they would have been vindicated in the end, the Jedi were in fact committing treason, which is illegal any way you slice it.

Once again how is the Jedi's plan to arrest Palpatine a coup. They didnt want to overthrow the Republic, just the Chancellor. In all likely hood If Mace and friends succeded and took Palpatine to the Senate with proof that he is in fact the leader of the Sepratists then there would still be a Republic under the leadership of a different Chancelor. The Jedi would not have taken over the government and made a new one. A coup overthrows a government the Jedi didnt plan that

First of all...

a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force

Secondly, by your logic, if I broke into the White House, deposed Bush, assumed the position of President, and forced the legislation and courts to okay me taking Bush's office, I wouldn't have committed a coup so long as I don't dissolve the US Government in its current form. Because in that hypothetical, I didn't want to overthrow the US Government. Just the President.

Thirdly, they had no proof that he was the Seperatist leader. None whatsoever. And frankly, they didn't seem to care whether he was or not. The only evidence they had of any wrongdoing is hearsay, and would not hold up in court.

Fourth, once again, they were aware that in all likelihood if they were forced to depose Palpatine, they would have to seize control of the Senate, too. Mace said that in so many words in the scene where Cody reported that Obi-Wan was fighting Grievous to the Council.

[Eframepilot]

Bring in the clones too. If the Clones where shown evidence that Palpatine was behind the Seppies they'd have stayed loyal to the Jedi.

Ooh. Bad idea. All Palpatine has to say is, "Initiate Order 66," and the clones will turn on the Jedi. They were programmed to follow orders, not think for themselves.

Doesn't the begining of Dark Lord dispute that?

Those clones were exceptional. It's like the Jem'Hadar. The vast majority are thoroughly obedient and loyal to the Founders, but a tiny minority... aren't. We saw Commander Cody, a man who was quite friendly with Obi-Wan Kenobi, turn on him with a single command from a black-robed figure whom he had never met (or at least, never met in his Sidious persona). Virtually all the clones would behave in the same way as Cody, with a bare handful choosing to question their orders.

[Tychu]

Ooh. Bad idea. All Palpatine has to say is, "Initiate Order 66," and the clones will turn on the Jedi. They were programmed to follow orders, not think for themselves.

Doesn't the begining of Dark Lord dispute that?

Those clones were exceptional. It's like the Jem'Hadar. The vast majority are thoroughly obedient and loyal to the Founders, but a tiny minority... aren't. We saw Commander Cody, a man who was quite friendly with Obi-Wan Kenobi, turn on him with a single command from a black-robed figure whom he had never met (or at least, never met in his Sidious persona). Virtually all the clones would behave in the same way as Cody, with a bare handful choosing to question their orders.

Just curious, how do you sdneters feel about the story mode in BattleFront II? about the whole Kamino making Jedi/Republic friendly clones fighting the Stormtroopers?
Because that really beats the crap out of the whole Order 66 debate

[Knife]

Bring in the clones too. If the Clones where shown evidence that Palpatine was behind the Seppies they'd have stayed loyal to the Jedi.

Ooh. Bad idea. All Palpatine has to say is, "Initiate Order 66," and the clones will turn on the Jedi. They were programmed to follow orders, not think for themselves.

Doesn't the begining of Dark Lord dispute that?

The Clones were loyal to the Republic, therefore they fall into the same legality of Palpatine and in fact were yet another example of how far legally Palpatine had subverted the Republic to his whims.

The whole reason Order 66 worked is because they were following the Supreme Chancilor's orders, who had just become C&C. Order 66 may have been kept on the DL, but they followed it not because of uber clone conditioning, rather their 'uber clone conditioning' made them follow legal orders from the Chain of Command.

C&C and Chancilor>commanding generals and Jedi.

[Civil War Man]

The whole reason Order 66 worked is because they were following the Supreme Chancilor's orders, who had just become C&C. Order 66 may have been kept on the DL, but they followed it not because of uber clone conditioning, rather their 'uber clone conditioning' made them follow legal orders from the Chain of Command.

C&C and Chancilor>commanding generals and Jedi.

This particularly works depending on the exact wording of Order 66. Someone mentioned here a while back (during a discussion on how the Jedi didn't pick up on the Order) that Order 66 could have said "Your commander has been compromised by the enemy. Neutralize immediately," which is probably an order that would have worked on a lot more clones than "Kill ze Jedi! Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha! *mustache twirling*"