Why do a lot of people think the federation can win?

TrekWarsie · Post by **TrekWarsie** » 2006-08-08 01:08pm

In my experience, many friends don't think that the Federation, or even the FKR Alliance alone can beat the Galactic Empire in a straight fight. However, in ship to ship battles, the FKR Alliance ships have an advantage over their Imperial counterparts. The mostly cite the contradictions between the ICS's and the movies, and use "The Die is Cast" yields if the ICS is, as they put it, forced down their throats. Even then they say that only the Sovereign class and Scimitar class ships can beat an ISD power vs. power. Most other FKR Alliance vessels have to use their speed, maneuverability, and superior targeting systems in order to win against their Imperial counterparts in one on one battles.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-08 01:10pm

That's because your friends are morons with the scientific aptitude of rodents.

MagnusTheReD · Post by **MagnusTheReD** » 2006-08-08 05:33pm

TrekWarsie wrote:In my experience, many friends don't think that the Federation, or even the FKR Alliance alone can beat the Galactic Empire in a straight fight. However, in ship to ship battles, the FKR Alliance ships have an advantage over their Imperial counterparts. The mostly cite the contradictions between the ICS's and the movies, and use "The Die is Cast" yields if the ICS is, as they put it, forced down their throats. Even then they say that only the Sovereign class and Scimitar class ships can beat an ISD power vs. power. Most other FKR Alliance vessels have to use their speed, maneuverability, and superior targeting systems in order to win against their Imperial counterparts in one on one battles.

This "theory" of yours based mainly on the assumption that the FKR vessele's speed, maneuverability and targeting system are better than their Imperial counterpart. Based on what, exactly?

And this nonsence about Sovereign and Scimitar being more powerfull than an ISD is just hilarious!
I haven't had such a good laught for a while now, this one really knocked my socks off!

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-08 05:44pm

The theory is not his but his friends'. It's wrong of course, as is the assumption that there are contradictions between the ICS' numbers and the movies or that there are solid firepower numbers in TDiC, but he's just the messenger. I can't see anything in TrekWarsie's post actually condoning these theories.

MagnusTheReD · Post by **MagnusTheReD** » 2006-08-08 05:56pm

Batman wrote:The theory is not his but his friends'. It's wrong of course, as is the assumption that there are contradictions between the ICS' numbers and the movies or that there are solid firepower numbers in TDiC, but he's just the messenger. I can't see anything in TrekWarsie's post actually condoning these theories.

Even if there is such a contradiction, where's the proof that it would be enough to bring down the ISD's shielding?
He should ask his friend to provide the calculations proving this!

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-08-09 12:46am

The mostly cite the contradictions between the ICS's and the movies

Which are?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-08-09 01:48am

Darth Servo wrote:
Elfdart wrote:The Black Hole is another rip-off of The Forbidden Planet.
Since I haven't seen either in years, please elaborate.

Both are knock-offs of Shakespeare's The Tempest: The power-hungry wizard/ scientist is marooned in some remote place for many years where he taps into Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know and tries to keep his newfound powers from the crew of a ship that lands in his new realm.

In The Tempest Prospero is glad to see his daughter take up with one of the nobles on the ship. In Forbidden Planet the mad scientist is angry with his daughter and the new arrivals and uses his powers to attack them. In The Black Hole, the girl in the movie is the daughter of the mad scientist's best friend (whom he murdered), but her role is the same. The biggest difference is that The Tempest has a fairly happy ending, while Forbidden Planet ends with a desperate escape from the Krell's psychic weapons, and The Black Hole lands the good people in heaven, then home, while the mad scientist ends up in hell. The Black Hole also has elements of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

The character, his motives and actions are more or less the same. Dr. Morbius, Dr. Reinhardt and Prince Prospero are interchangeable, though Prospero is the least sinister of the bunch and has a change of heart.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-08-09 09:05am

TrekWarsie wrote:In my experience, many friends don't think that the Federation, or even the FKR Alliance alone can beat the Galactic Empire in a straight fight. However, in ship to ship battles, the FKR Alliance ships have an advantage over their Imperial counterparts. The mostly cite the contradictions between the ICS's and the movies, and use "The Die is Cast" yields if the ICS is, as they put it, forced down their throats. Even then they say that only the Sovereign class and Scimitar class ships can beat an ISD power vs. power. Most other FKR Alliance vessels have to use their speed, maneuverability, and superior targeting systems in order to win against their Imperial counterparts in one on one battles.

So can your "friends" provide numbers and facts for these faster and more manuverable speeds? Because there is no way that a Galaxy Class ship is more agile than the Millenium Falcon and even a big ship like Star Destroyer keeps up with it nicely. The fact is a certain guy called GEORGE LUCAS says that ICS is real and valid, and his say has a lot more clout than a spotty geek who's girlfriend name ends in .jpeg

As for the targeting i direct you to Mr Poe's Evidence that a Federation ship isn't as infalable as you might wish in your wettest dreams.

Waddles McGee · Post by **Waddles McGee** » 2006-08-09 09:20am

I thought the Federation could win because I subscribed to that whole "TEH LZ0rz cannot hurt teh FEDS" shit. It never occured to me that the Empire is 100,000 times bigger, mostly because I only concentrated on the Lasers not hurting the Enterprise.

Waddles McGee · Post by **Waddles McGee** » 2006-08-09 09:22am

Edit:
And that's what a lot of other people who had no access to proper manuals, like the AOTC and TNG Manuals probably thought if they concentrated on the whole "laser" argument.

That and a lot of people like to see what the prefer more win..

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-09 12:30pm

I never understood how anyone could buy into the "no laser" argument. Graham Kennedy never did concede it, even going so far as to say that the Death Star superlaser would be useless against a shuttlecraft. It must require some sort of deranged fanaticism.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-08-09 12:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:I never understood how anyone could buy into the "no laser" argument. Graham Kennedy never did concede it, even going so far as to say that the Death Star superlaser would be useless against a shuttlecraft. It must require some sort of deranged fanaticism.

Well Mike, anything a Trek character says is absolute truth at face value. Like when Q said the Borg are sexless; neither male nor female.

Ooopss......

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-08-09 02:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:I never understood how anyone could buy into the "no laser" argument. Graham Kennedy never did concede it, even going so far as to say that the Death Star superlaser would be useless against a shuttlecraft. It must require some sort of deranged fanaticism.

It's merely another manifestation of whatever it is that causes people to believe in such non-sense as the Noah's Ark fairy tale.

Waddles McGee · Post by **Waddles McGee** » 2006-08-09 03:58pm

Darth Wong wrote:I never understood how anyone could buy into the "no laser" argument. Graham Kennedy never did concede it, even going so far as to say that the Death Star superlaser would be useless against a shuttlecraft. It must require some sort of deranged fanaticism.

Eh, I wasn't as extreme, but for the most part that's what it was.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-08-09 06:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:I never understood how anyone could buy into the "no laser" argument. Graham Kennedy never did concede it, even going so far as to say that the Death Star superlaser would be useless against a shuttlecraft. It must require some sort of deranged fanaticism.

I never did get that either, by that arguement if i got hit with a chip of rock and it didn't kill me i should be able to survive getting a boulder dropped on my head.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-09 06:29pm

The fun part is that even if the 'no lasers' argument worked (which it can't) it would be irrelevant, given that turbolasers and especially compound turbolasers like the DS superlaser can't be lasers. They do stuff that's physically impossible to do with lasers.

Waddles McGee · Post by **Waddles McGee** » 2006-08-10 12:36am

Batman wrote:The fun part is that even if the 'no lasers' argument worked (which it can't) it would be irrelevant, given that turbolasers and especially compound turbolasers like the DS superlaser can't be lasers. They do stuff that's physically impossible to do with lasers.

Odds are, people who buy the laser part probably don't know, or have not taken the time to realize, that lasers in the Star Trek universe are different than in the Star Wars universe.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-08-10 12:46am

Waddles McGee wrote:
Batman wrote:The fun part is that even if the 'no lasers' argument worked (which it can't) it would be irrelevant, given that turbolasers and especially compound turbolasers like the DS superlaser can't be lasers. They do stuff that's physically impossible to do with lasers.
Odds are, people who buy the laser part probably don't know, or have not taken the time to realize, that lasers in the Star Trek universe are different than in the Star Wars universe.

That matters again how?

And in fact anyone who thinks that because the SW laser has laser as a part of its nomenclature; means that it has ANY attributes that are from what one is considered a laser needs to take high school physics again.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-08-10 01:42am

Didn't someone write an extreme trek-wank Fanfic, where the Enterprise crew met in the "meeting room" to discuss why anyone would build a ship as big as an ISD and arm it with pitiful, pitiful lasers? I seem to remember reading it here.

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2006-08-10 02:51am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Didn't someone write an extreme trek-wank Fanfic, where the Enterprise crew met in the "meeting room" to discuss why anyone would build a ship as big as an ISD and arm it with pitiful, pitiful lasers? I seem to remember reading it here.

It was probably Grahm Kennedy's "Portal".

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-08-10 07:10am

Batman wrote:The fun part is that even if the 'no lasers' argument worked (which it can't) it would be irrelevant, given that turbolasers and especially compound turbolasers like the DS superlaser can't be lasers. They do stuff that's physically impossible to do with lasers.

And it's not as if they even look like lasers, either. The green TL bolts look more like disruptors than anything else, and even if they work completely differently (I wouldn't be surprised) a Trekkie that only goes on visuals alone would conclude that disruptors work all too well on Federation ships and therefore TLs must too.
As a result, they cant say 'ooh, they look like lasers, ergo: they won't work on Fed shields'.
The only defence against big lasers (aka a plot device) that the Federation has that I know of is in a (non-canon) novel. If you want, I can describe it (though it violates fundamental physics via some technobabble means).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-10 08:49am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: And it's not as if they even look like lasers, either.

The very fact that they look at all means they're not lasers, as those would be invisible.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-08-10 08:53am

Batman wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: And it's not as if they even look like lasers, either.
The very fact that they look at all means they're not lasers, as those would be invisible.

True, certainly from the sides and outside a planetary atmosphere, but then the visual effects never let a little thing such as accuracy get in the way of making stuff look good.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2006-08-10 03:36pm

Xess wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Didn't someone write an extreme trek-wank Fanfic, where the Enterprise crew met in the "meeting room" to discuss why anyone would build a ship as big as an ISD and arm it with pitiful, pitiful lasers? I seem to remember reading it here.
It was probably Grahm Kennedy's "Portal".

I'd never read that before. I just spent about 15 minutes trying to muddle my way through it, but all I can say is that is was really bad. I didn't even read chapters 3-5 it was so bad. Wow...

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-08-11 12:42am

Xess wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Didn't someone write an extreme trek-wank Fanfic, where the Enterprise crew met in the "meeting room" to discuss why anyone would build a ship as big as an ISD and arm it with pitiful, pitiful lasers? I seem to remember reading it here.
It was probably Grahm Kennedy's "Portal".

Isin't that the one where Troi defeats Palpatine?