Thermodynamics and psychology... What do you think?

[Superman]

I have a question for people with more knowledge of physics than I. It has to do with what's known as psychodynamics.

The central premise of psychodynamics is based on the first law of thermodynamics, which states that the total amount of matter and energy in any system under study, which undergoes any transformation or process, is conserved; meaning, essentially, that experiences, especially early childhood experiences, in theory, are conserved in the unconscious. Subsequently, conserved experiences later in life must either remain buried in the mind or find their way to the surface, i.e. the “conscious” level. This, in the former case, results in psychological states as neurosis and psychosis.

It is generally accepted, and I think most here agree, that early childhood experiences, especially traumas (abuse or neglect by caregivers) set a person up for developing personality disorders later in life. In fact, the DSM IV (the Bible for people in mental health fields) even attributes neuroses (emotional disorder characterized chiefly by anxiety) as being the result of unresolved mental conflicts.

My question has to do with this view under a thermodynamic model. My knowledge in physics is pretty minimal, so what do you think?

[Lord of the Abyss]

The central premise of psychodynamics is based on the first law of thermodynamics, which states that the total amount of matter and energy in any system under study, which undergoes any transformation or process, is conserved; meaning, essentially, that experiences, especially early childhood experiences, in theory, are conserved in the unconscious. Subsequently, conserved experiences later in life must either remain buried in the mind or find their way to the surface, i.e. the “conscious” level.

Even with my layman's knowledge I can see the flaw in this; the First Law only holds in a closed system. It's no different than the creationist argument that thermodynamics forbids evolution, while ignoring the fact that Earth isn't a closed system either.

Our bodies and brain undergoe a constant exchange of matter and energy with the outside world; therefore they are not a closed system. As well experiences aren't matter or energy, but patterns of them, and patterns are not conserved.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Just to clarify, since I am not familiar with the idea, are they saying that one doesn't lose the childhood experiences, they merely get burried? I don't see how that is, if that is indeed what they are saying.

Experiences are, I think, classified as a type of declaritive experiental (episodic) memory. They are, like semantic memory, only "conserved" as long as the neural pathways in the brain remain functional and conntected. Like any memory, time, other memories and information will push it out. The chemical messangers as well as the neural pathways will decay, especially if you don't replay the memory in your head.

[Mad]

The central premise of psychodynamics is based on the first law of thermodynamics, which states that the total amount of matter and energy in any system under study, which undergoes any transformation or process, is conserved; meaning, essentially, that experiences, especially early childhood experiences, in theory, are conserved in the unconscious.

If memories are conserved, then where do memories come from? (New memories enter the system all the time.)

The only way such an explanation makes sense is as an analogy, though it seems pretty poor. Memories are implemented as connections between neurons in the brain. They have a kind of physical structure and destroying that structure will cause the memory to be lost. Under normal circumstances, it would seem that memories tend to become buried instead of disappearing. That is, the assertion is that under normal circumstances, the connections between neurons in the brain are not destroyed.

I don't really see how that relates to conservation of energy.

[Darth Wong]

The problem with this analogy is that it treats memories, thought patterns, and neuroses as objects, in much the same way as quantities of matter or energy are treated by thermodynamics. But memories, thought patterns, and neuroses are more akin to methods and characteristics, not objects.

The fact that experiences contribute to certain habits of thought which can be classified as neuroses later in life does not mean they are "conserved". The memories themselves can be lost, and the fact that they contribute to those habits of thought does not mean they are conserved.

To take an analogy, if I walk up to your car and gouge deep grooves into the hood with my keys, and then walk away, my keys do not remain with your car. The vandalism does, but the keys themselves are still gone from the system.

[Lord Zentei]

Why should memories be conserved simply because energy and matter are? Memories are information. While the quantity of information a closed system encodes is not diminished, the content of said information is another matter. Moreover as is stated above, the human brain is not a closed system.

A better analogy might be that the memory of a computer is not conserved - you can delete or overwrite parts of the hard drive. While the human brain is quite unlike a hard drive, it does suggest that the initial analogy is a false one.

[Superman]

The central premise of psychodynamics is based on the first law of thermodynamics, which states that the total amount of matter and energy in any system under study, which undergoes any transformation or process, is conserved; meaning, essentially, that experiences, especially early childhood experiences, in theory, are conserved in the unconscious. Subsequently, conserved experiences later in life must either remain buried in the mind or find their way to the surface, i.e. the “conscious” level.

Even with my layman's knowledge I can see the flaw in this; the First Law only holds in a closed system. It's no different than the creationist argument that thermodynamics forbids evolution, while ignoring the fact that Earth isn't a closed system either.

Our bodies and brain undergoe a constant exchange of matter and energy with the outside world; therefore they are not a closed system. As well experiences aren't matter or energy, but patterns of them, and patterns are not conserved.

That was my thought too. This theory was elaborated mostly by Carl Jung, Freud's initial protege but later turned arch-enemy. He did actually view this as a closed system, and it too reminded me of the creationist argument. While Freud's psychoanalytic theories are still taught from psychology 101 all the way up, Jung's psychodynamic ideas are mostly in philosophy classes.

To take an analogy, if I walk up to your car and gouge deep grooves into the hood with my keys, and then walk away, my keys do not remain with your car. The vandalism does, but the keys themselves are still gone from the system.

Makes sense. I might keep that analogy, if you don't mind.