Yoda lives and his EU NJO impact.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-09 02:01am

Supose Yoda doesn't die in ROTJ, and say, he lives for another 50 years. Aside from this, everything else happens exactly the same as it does in the movie.

How do you think Yoda being alive would impact the new generation of Jedi and the comming events such as the return of Palpatine, Thrawn returning from Wild Space (or is it the region past that?), the New Republic and the Vong invasion, or whichever event you like.

How do you invision(sp?) the new Jedi, now that Yoda has realized his old methods of training were outdated and detrimental to the Order.

Do you think the NJO would become involved in the new galactic leadership, like they were in the Republic?

Sidenote: If I'm starting to many of these "What if" threads, just tell me to knock it off.

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2006-08-09 05:41am

Yoda made it pretty clear that he was done, and I assume that he intended to spend the rest of his life meditating in his self-imposed exile. I don't envision him coming back out of that even to train new Jedi once Luke started doing that. If Luke was smart, he wouldn't go to him. The old Jedi Order failed, its members were killed, and its teachings were proven to be inadequate for the galaxy Yoda now found himself in. He knew that for the Jedi to survive, their order must be reinvented, and he could have no more part in it than preparing the founding member to come up with his own methods. Perhaps Yoda could stay at Luke's Praxeum and teach one aspect of the Force, like telekinesis training or mind exercises, but the temptation to try to exert more influence, influence that would only be steeped in old, broken traditions, would most likely be too strong to resist for one as used to leading an order as Yoda. His death in RoTJ was for a very specific purpose: it demonstrated that the last of the old Jedi was now gone, and Luke was on his own to remake the Jedi order to face this new galaxy. Even if his physical death didn't occur, Yoda had no more place, and he would stay out of galactic affairs. I strongly suspect, in fact, that Yoda could have easily cured his sickness, but let himself die. He knew that Luke would be stronger if he couldn't run back to Yoda but had to rely on himself.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2006-08-09 10:46pm

Yeah, Yoda might well decide "the kids are all right" and leave it to Luke to rebuild while he himself just kinda... retires.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-08-10 10:37am

He'd probably just chill on Dagobah, until he did fade away. Because, you know, guys like Yoda don't die.. they just fade away (chuckle cringe).

I think it's a moot point, because as DesertFly said, he probably let go and died on purpose, to spur Luke's development into a man, a Jedi, and a hero.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2006-08-10 08:39pm

Cykeisme wrote:*snip* he probably let go and died on purpose, to spur Luke's development into a man, a Jedi, and a hero.

IIRC, according to the novelization, Yoda was having to use every last bit of force power he had to stay alive long enough to tell Luke to confront Vader, that he is his father, etc.

Darth Sephiroth · Post by **Darth Sephiroth** » 2006-08-10 10:24pm

I'd say that the new Jedi would develop more quickly and have more resemblance to the old Jedi than the current ones do mainly due to Luke and a few of the other Jedi learning history from him

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2006-08-11 04:21am

The Spartan wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:*snip* he probably let go and died on purpose, to spur Luke's development into a man, a Jedi, and a hero.
IIRC, according to the novelization, Yoda was having to use every last bit of force power he had to stay alive long enough to tell Luke to confront Vader, that he is his father, etc.

I have the novelisation and it does not say that. Yoda dies of old age, nothing more.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-08-11 02:07pm

Assuming that Yoda wouldn't be too weakened to move around, I think it would have two significant effects, one positive, one negative.

The positive one is that having a Jedi Master from the Old Order of the Galactic Republic would probably help further legitimize the New Jedi Order. The negative is that even if Yoda didn't do anything but teach, his sheer presence would probably cause the Jedi to shift back towards a more traditional Jedi-ness.

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2006-08-11 05:03pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:The negative is that even if Yoda didn't do anything but teach, his sheer presence would probably cause the Jedi to shift back towards a more traditional Jedi-ness.

Exactly, and that's why I think Yoda would be smart enough to realize that, and either isolate himself, or disappear.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-08-11 05:07pm

If Yoda survives I can hardly see the downside. Yoda surviving means Luke actually gets proper Jedi training and learns lots more cool tricks rather than just some hideously abbreviated combat and philosphy lessons.

It also means Yoda can guide Luke in his first instructions rather than letting him flounder around on Yavin and royally botch the job as shown in JAT/I, Jedi.

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2006-08-11 05:14pm

Crazedwraith wrote:If Yoda survives I can hardly see the downside.

If Yoda survives I can hardly see the upside.

Yoda surviving means Luke actually gets proper Jedi training and learns lots more cool tricks rather than just some hideously abbreviated combat and philosphy lessons.

Lessons which would be steeped in the mindset and culture of the old Jedi order. I don't know if you watched the same movies as I did, but the original Jedi order was wiped out because it was stagnant and couldn't adapt to the galaxy it was policing. In addition, it was tied too tightly to the ruling government, another fact that helped lead to its downfall when the government changed and it didn't.

It also means Yoda can guide Luke in his first instructions rather than letting him flounder around on Yavin and royally botch the job as shown in JAT/I, Jedi.

You call it floundering around and botching it, I call it a necessary part of the learning process. Without Luke botching it up a few times, he never would have learned to be the leader he needed to be. Having Yoda there to clean up after his mistakes, or even worse, keep him from making them, means that Luke doesn't figure out the best way to handle these situations when they arise and Yoda isn't there, and basically becomes a puppet until Yoda moves on. Luke already learned all he needed to know from Yoda; the rest he needed to discover or invent on his own.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-08-11 05:30pm

Luke...basically becomes a puppet until Yoda moves on.

Emphasis added. That makes me giggle a whole lot.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-08-11 05:31pm

DesertFly wrote:
Lessons which would be steeped in the mindset and culture of the old Jedi order. I don't know if you watched the same movies as I did, but the original Jedi order was wiped out because it was stagnant and couldn't adapt to the galaxy it was policing. In addition, it was tied too tightly to the ruling government, another fact that helped lead to its downfall when the government changed and it didn't.

Yes, I do realise this. And I don't see how it is relevant. The old jedi order is gone and Yoda isn't going to repeat his own mistakes. Mistakes he himself recognised. Furthermore The stated aims of the NJO are the exact same as the OJO: to be the guardians of peace and justice in the Galaxy.

In canon Luke wastes 5 or 6 years running aorund trying to dig up infomation about the Jedi so he can ressurct the Order. If Yoda lives, he doesn't have to.

Yoda surviving also means the Jedi retain knowledge of all sorts of Fancy tricks Luke would never know about.

Think of all Luke pussyfooting in the NJO books, always wondering what the role of the Jedi is and what constitudes darkside activity and so forth. If Yoda's around all he has to do is ask and all questions will be answered and he can go off and kick ass with a clear conscience.

You call it floundering around and botching it, I call it a necessary part of the learning process. Without Luke botching it up a few times, he never would have learned to be the leader he needed to be. Having Yoda there to clean up after his mistakes, or even worse, keep him from making them, means that Luke doesn't figure out the best way to handle these situations when they arise and Yoda isn't there, and basically becomes a puppet until Yoda moves on. Luke already learned all he needed to know from Yoda; the rest he needed to discover or invent on his own.

Do you call several of Luke's students turning into genocidal maniacs " a necessary part of the learning process"?

Having Yoda around would not hinder Luke's growth it would aide and support it. Lets sue a metaphor. When learning to ride a bike you don't just jump on one and peddle like made. You have stabillisers so you don't fall on your ass. Yoda would be Luke's stabilisers so if he fucks up his student don't run off and try to eat the universe or whatever.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-08-11 06:30pm

If Yoda was smart, he'd teach Luke everything he knew about the Force and powers there in, and the basics of teaching Jedi. Tell him where to find old sites the Emperor might have missed, etc.

In other words, he's the old man in the swamp talking to luke via holonet

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2006-08-11 07:28pm

Yoda was the master that seemed to best understand the collapse of the Jedi order, Obi-wan or Windu might set the new order off on the wrong path if they were the one left to guide luke in its creation...but Yoda knew it was fucked up and would be much better suited to helping a new fledgling order get off on the right foot.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-08-12 03:41am

Crazedwraith wrote:Do you call several of Luke's students turning into genocidal maniacs " a necessary part of the learning process"?

Eh, there were just as many Jedi-turned-psychos in the new Order as there were in the old; they just had bigger weapons and more ambitious goals.

Yoda's not dumb; he'd probally realize that he shouldn't play too much of a hand in Luke's new Order. If anything, he'll do some basic teaching and offer some neutral advise when needed.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-12 10:16pm

Yoda had 20 years to sit around and discuss the place of the Jedi with his new master Qui-Gon Jinn. I'm sure in that time they probably would have adressed the mistakes the Jedi had made during Yoda's lifetime and came up with new teachings and techniques that would have been benificial to Luke and the NJO.

Hmmm, one could even wonder if Yoda would have left a holocron of these new ideas lying around Dagobah.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2006-08-13 02:54am

If nothing else there's the technical advice

Tried that training exercise was, on fire did padawans set themselves.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-08-13 05:13am

If Yoda could trust himself to train Luke, he could train other Jedi, rather than letting Luke (with incomplete training) fumble his way through it.

Sure, the New Jedi Order may have "only" as many fallen Jedi as the Old, but the Old has only lost "20" in a thousand years? That's pretty darn good, for a 10,000 strong organization! The much smaller and shorter lived "New Order" have thus done much worse than their predecessors.

Anyway, it's late, but that made alot of sense to me when I posted it.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-08-13 10:50am

Kurgan wrote:Sure, the New Jedi Order may have "only" as many fallen Jedi as the Old, but the Old has only lost "20" in a thousand years? That's pretty darn good, for a 10,000 strong organization! The much smaller and shorter lived "New Order" have thus done much worse than their predecessors.

The Lost Twenty are 20 Jedi that have voluntarily left the Order. There have been many Jedi that have gone dark without the courtesy of telling the Order to sit on it that aren't "Lost".

Kurgan wrote:Anyway, it's late, but that made alot of sense to me when I posted it.

The story of the Internet

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-08-13 11:33am

Kurgan wrote:If Yoda could trust himself to train Luke, he could train other Jedi, rather than letting Luke (with incomplete training) fumble his way through it.

Sure, the New Jedi Order may have "only" as many fallen Jedi as the Old, but the Old has only lost "20" in a thousand years? That's pretty darn good, for a 10,000 strong organization! The much smaller and shorter lived "New Order" have thus done much worse than their predecessors.

Anyway, it's late, but that made alot of sense to me when I posted it.

They've had some close calls in their 25,000 year history, though; from points where they were in a state of near extinction, to when they basically dominated the Republic in the war with the Sith Empire that existed just before Darth Bane.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-13 01:09pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:If nothing else there's the technical advice

Tried that training exercise was, on fire did padawans set themselves.

Man I can't stop laughing at that.

Back to the OP. Setting all the ramifications on the Jedi Order itself aside, do you think that Yoda would have gotten involved with the Reborn Emperor, the Vong invasion (Wouldn't he have known Vergeree?) Thrawn and Joruus C'Boath etc. ?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-08-14 01:25am

Shadowtraveler wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Sure, the New Jedi Order may have "only" as many fallen Jedi as the Old, but the Old has only lost "20" in a thousand years? That's pretty darn good, for a 10,000 strong organization! The much smaller and shorter lived "New Order" have thus done much worse than their predecessors.
The Lost Twenty are 20 Jedi that have voluntarily left the Order. There have been many Jedi that have gone dark without the courtesy of telling the Order to sit on it that aren't "Lost".

Are you sure about that? Why would the Order tolerate Dark Side practitioners within their ranks? Or are you saying these were somehow able to keep their practices secret all their lives?

If this is a retcon to fit in the "other Dark Jedi from the EU" I wouldn't think that would be necessary, since those appear after the period of the Prequels anyway (the figure of the Lost 20 was given up to the time of AOTC).

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-08-14 01:31am

Not exactly that. Think of how Dooku left. He talked to the Jedi Council, told them he was leaving, they threw his a "Good Luck" party, etc. He becomes the 20th and leaves still a Jedi at heart.

Now think of someone like...say, Sora Bulq. They basically find out he's gone Dark, quick fight or two, he escapes, and he doesn't get ranked amoung the Lost.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-14 05:53am

"Vader regarded him. "Haven't you guessed by now? I was a Jedi for a time."
Shryne let his bafflement show. "You're one of the Lost Twenty. Like Dooku."
"I am the twenty-first, Master Shryne. Surley you've heard of Anakin Skywalker. The Chosen One."

According to the Wookieepedia, the Lost Twenty are only the Jedi MASTERS that volutarily leave the Order. Regular Jedi and padawans are not counted among the Lost Twenty.

Anakin seems to think he is the 21st of the Lost, which shows his arrogance, since he was never a Jedi Master and certainly at the time was not a Sith Master. Shryne perhaps assumes that someone as powerfull as Vader would have had to have been a Master.

Shadotraveler wrote:Now think of someone like...say, Sora Bulq. They basically find out he's gone Dark, quick fight or two, he escapes, and he doesn't get ranked amoung the Lost.

Well a plausible in universe explanation is that they just didn't have time to do it. They were in the midsts of the Clone Wars.