Roman Legions at the Seige of Gondor

[Next of Kin]

The main power that Sauron had was fear and the his power to control and subjugate many other races....also the Romans would be hard pressed to deal with some of Gondors allies such as the Ents or the Eagles..I think the battle would be decided by other factors than the relative merits of Rome vs. Gondor...

Also Grandif was nearly as powerful as Sauron (He states to Gimi in the second book that "only Sauron himself was more dangerous than He (Grandif) was. He could tip the battle into Gondors favorite..

How many times have the ents or eagles intervened on the behalf of Gondor?...the Ents laid seige to Isengard...the eagles were in the battle of five armies (which did not include Gondor).

[macman]

The Eagles also were involved in the last battle and the ents mentioned guarding Rohans Flank so they could send their whole force to Gondor..

[Next of Kin]

The Eagles also were involved in the last battle and the ents mentioned guarding Rohans Flank so they could send their whole force to Gondor..

Roman archers would make short work of the eagles divebomb attack. Ents would prove to be an interesting challenge as very intense fire would be needed to cause any real damage and thus, repeated ballista attacks would be needed to send to ents in retreat.

[macman]

A question? Do we have any idea of the size of Gondors Army..The book and trailers for The Two Towers seem tp show large numbers..also I remember reading someplace that the Roman Army never numbered more than 144,000 (12 Legions)..So I wonder how large a force they could field against Gondor....I do remember that Rohan was mentioned around 10000 Horsemen.

[Stormbringer]

A question? Do we have any idea of the size of Gondors Army..The book and trailers for The Two Towers seem tp show large numbers..also I remember reading someplace that the Roman Army never numbered more than 144,000 (12 Legions)..So I wonder how large a force they could field against Gondor....I do remember that Rohan was mentioned around 10000 Horsemen.

Gondor probably at most 50,000 to 60,000 with the allied auxiliaries (excluding Rohan).

The big thing is though, the Sauron had forces numbering into the millions and if only a tenth (which is probably low balling it) were sent against Gondor then that 100,000 troops. It's not going to be easy for the Romans, if only through sheer numbers.

[Straha]

I disagree. The romans were Siege Experts yes, but they would not battle Gondor. Most likley they would surround it, bombard it occasionally, and just starve them out. Most likley, also, the Romans would send over kill to the town. (read: around 100,000 men if they really wanted to)Don't know the Geography of the Area but the Roman soldiers could probably build a quick fleet to help siege the river as well.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I disagree. The romans were Siege Experts yes, but they would not battle Gondor. Most likley they would surround it, bombard it occasionally, and just starve them out. Most likley, also, the Romans would send over kill to the town. (read: around 100,000 men if they really wanted to)Don't know the Geography of the Area but the Roman soldiers could probably build a quick fleet to help siege the river as well.

They'd probably just send home for a chain to stretch across the river, and then post catapults to sink anything that came along.

And the Romans wouldn't have 100,000 men to spare.

[CJvR]

The Roman army reached its peaks during the civil war of the second triumvirate when the factions totaled about 500.000 men in about 60 legions.

Later during the crisis of the third century the military strenght of the empire reached it's all time high of about 600.000 men but by then much of it was cavalry and foreign mercenaries.

For most of it's history the Roman empire kept between 250-300.000 men in the army. About half of that was what could be considerd the field army. The rest would be auxilliarys, marines, limitani & milita.

The Gondorians and their Rohanite allies would be in for a bad day if they ever fought the empire.


No Roman comander would try something as crazy as a frontal assault on a city as heavily fortified as Minas Tirith. This would be a siege and a long one but once the Romans dig in the fate of the White tower is sealed.

[CJvR]

When Hanibal fought the second Punic war the Roman Republic could summon around 700.000 men to serve in wartime. The troops during this era was not the highly efficient killing machine of the Imperial era but more of an oversized milita. The Roman army that would conquer the world was borne in these wars though...

[weemadando]

For an idea of how goddamn persistant the Romans are when it comes to siege warfare look at Masada...

[Graeme Dice]

Roman archers would make short work of the eagles divebomb attack. Ents would prove to be an interesting challenge as very intense fire would be needed to cause any real damage and thus, repeated ballista attacks would be needed to send to ents in retreat.

What roman archers? Unless you're bringing an awful lot of auxiliarries along, then they'll have slingers, not archers.

[papachulo10]

Hey guys i am new here. lol. I just thought i should at least leave my mark somewhere.

Well i assume you guys are considering the Roman army of around 140 ad. This is the classical army with the classic large, red, rectangular sheild and short stabbing sword.

The army of the later empire was extremely different. From their helmets(much simpler and cheaper that the elaborate "classical" helmet, sorry but i am not sure as to how it is called) and armor, to their weapons. Actually the army of the later empire didn't even use the short stabbing sword (glaudius, sorry bout the spelling guys) they use a larger sword that was used in swiping motion. This is the type of army that was defeated under valens in andrianople. Also in this army the calvalry would probably been a larger element.

And on more thing, i don't think the romans had flamming arrows and catapults full of napalm. Sure they had huge catapults and crossbows, but the fire element is a lot of Hollywood mumbo jumbo. It may have been used sometimes, yet not to the extent that is showed in glaidator.

Hope this helps.

[weemadando]

Hey guys i am new here. lol. I just thought i should at least leave my mark somewhere.[/quoe]

Welcome...

Well i assume you guys are considering the Roman army of around 140 ad. This is the classical army with the classic large, red, rectangular sheild and short stabbing sword.

Yes. But I was referring to the 10BCE-50CE army... Others have been referring to the Republic era.

The army of the later empire was extremely different. From their helmets(much simpler and cheaper that the elaborate "classical" helmet, sorry but i am not sure as to how it is called) and armor, to their weapons. Actually the army of the later empire didn't even use the short stabbing sword (glaudius, sorry bout the spelling guys) they use a larger sword that was used in swiping motion. This is the type of army that was defeated under valens in andrianople. Also in this army the calvalry would probably been a larger element.

You're fairly knowledgable, whats your background?

And on more thing, i don't think the romans had flamming arrows and catapults full of napalm. Sure they had huge catapults and crossbows, but the fire element is a lot of Hollywood mumbo jumbo. It may have been used sometimes, yet not to the extent that is showed in glaidator.

Hope this helps.

True, they did have naptha and other weapons but it was primarily used in naval combat and even more so in siege warfare or as an anti-materiel weapon. Not anti-infantry as shown in the movie, though Gladiator was a fairly realistic depiction of tactics, if nothing else (a SPANISH GENERAL in the ROMAN army... BOLLOCKS)...

[papachulo10]

Background? Consider me an avid history buff who takes in many different opinons. lol.

Well actually the byzantines were the ones to use napalm on their ships. Yet i do consider them roman, contrary to what a lot of people say.

Did the romans(by that i mean from the beginning of the republic to 476 AD use napalm at sea? I am not too sure).

[StarshipTitanic]

It's not napalm, it's Greek fire. They used it on ships called "Dromons" and they did use it with success against Arab navies. Until the late 500s though, I believe they used simple trireme-type ships and boarding tactics.

[papachulo10]

I apologize, i should have specified that.

Actually boarding tactics is what the Spanish used for a long time, until they were defeated by the British. And i am quite certian they were used in the Battle of Lepanto.

[NeoGoomba]

Hey, first post here, be gentle.

Gondor probably at most 50,000 to 60,000 with the allied auxiliaries (excluding Rohan).

While that is probably a close number, you have to realize how dispersed it was. The bulk of Gondor's forces were in Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, and the coast city of Dol Amroth. So lets say that those three are the main strongpoints, and each have 10,000 regulars. The rest is spread out in Ithillen, Lossnarch, Pinnath Gelin and the rest of the countryside. The Romans would besiege Minas Tirith with little problem. With only 10-12 thousand in Minas Tirith itself, Gondor won't be able to throw off the siege at first.

Now, with no Sauron opposing them, nor no Southrons, Easterlings, or Corsairs involved, Dol Amroth and Osgiliath would be able to marshal their full might against the Romans, so lets say 20,000 gather beyond the seige. Of course, Gondor will send for aid from Rohan. After being mangled by Saruman's forces, Theoden was still confident that they could send at least 10,000 cavalry to Gondor if given time to muster. So lets say 15,000 from Rohan, heavy cavalry (they can gather more now that Saruman is not in the picture).

There would be 5,000-7,000 in Minas Tirith itself (as quite a few would have been lost to the Romans before falling back to the city), and 35,000 reinforcements attempting to break the siege.

Then you have to account that the Romans wouldn't be able to besiege the city by surprise, as Denethor frequently used the Palantir and would have seen them coming.

The big thing is though, the Sauron had forces numbering into the millions and if only a tenth (which is probably low balling it) were sent against Gondor then that 100,000 troops. It's not going to be easy for the Romans, if only through sheer numbers.

While I agree that Sauron had low millions of forces total (his Orcs, Haradrim, Corsairs, and the Easterlings and Southrons plus his northern army at Dol Guldur), it was stated by Gandalf that he had committed HALF of his forces to the War. But that half was used to fight Gondor, its southern allies, Lorien (three assaults that were each utterly routed BTW), Dale, and the Lonely Mountain.

[macman]

Of course I believe that the Romans would be a tougher foe than the Orcs

Also It is easy to dismiss Grandif as an old man with a staff but I believe He would be a strong factor in the battle

[papachulo10]

The romans would just be way to well organized for the orcs. I also wanted them to pop out with some Byzantine/Arabic horse archers.

I mean if you decked out a calvalry contingent in Arabic tactics, the orcs would get slaughtered. All you gotta do is harrass them to death and continue skirmishing (It worked versus the romans(crassus), persians, romans(at the Yarmuk Valley), and the crusaders, it would make mincemeat out of the orcs).

By the time that orc army would have gotten to the legions, , you can do the math."


What i really wanna know is how a modern Mechanized infantry and some gunship helicopters would work.

[StarshipTitanic]

I apologize, i should have specified that.

Actually boarding tactics is what the Spanish used for a long time, until they were defeated by the British. And i am quite certian they were used in the Battle of Lepanto.

Everyone used boarding tactics (and ramming). That's all they could do.

[papachulo10]

Lepanto was in the 1500's and both sides were still using largely boarding tactics.

Yet look up a battle called Diu, which happend before Lepanto. THe portuguese anihillated the Muslum navy without having to board. It was called the broadside lol.

The british learned from this, and that is why they won in the armada.

The christian allies learned partly from this in lepanto. In lepanto they outfitted like 10 ships with high sides(to prevent boarding) and loaded them down with guns. Needless to say it was because of these the christians won in lepanto.

So boarding wasn't the only way at this time.