I really try not to just assume that Christians are stupid..

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-08-11 03:41am

But it seems like it's getting harder all the goddamned time. They repeat the same tired bullshit, and it's like they think with a part of their brain that's not working properly. All reason goes out the window with them. It's like they're some subspecies of mongoloid that look like humans, but can't think in terms of reality.

My question is when you find out that someone is a Christian, do you automatically think of them as a stupider class of person? I really try not to, but it gets harder all the damn time. What really gets me is how they can preach their bullshit at work, or in a group of friends, but as soon as you argue, you're the bad guy. It's like they just assume you're one of them when they start talking about it. Like my supervisor at work; she constantly sends all of us forwarded spam, and it's always republican propoganda with some "I suck Jesus' dick" message attached.

And the fact that they never fail to disappoint doesn't help. I think churches have turned into idiot factories.

Anyway... and be honest... when you find out someone is a christian, do you, maybe even subconsciously, give them the 'stupid' label? I really think I do. I want to give them a chance, but they never disappoint. I dunno, what does everyone think?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-11 03:44am

I don't automatically assume that a Christian must be stupid, because there are plenty of intelligent Christians. However, if he's a full-blown Biblical inerrantist fundie, than yeah, I tend to assume he's either innately stupid or so badly brainwashed that he's functionally stupid.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-08-11 03:52am

Yes, I will admit that learning someone is a Christian automatically lowers my opinion of them. I won't defend it, because I can't. It's an involuntary reaction born of my intense antipathy for the faith. I make every conscious effort to give them the benefit of the doubt, but yes, it's really freaking hard.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2006-08-11 03:57am

One must make sure to seperate Christians who are and aren't fundies. We have a substantial following on this very forum, many of them held in high esteem, who would not likely subscribe to the the former.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-08-11 04:31am

Liberal Christians do not deserve to be grouped in with the evangelicals and fundies of the far right. Being a progressive Catholic and a liberal, I take on many fundies and constantly try to prevent them from ruining the world's perspective of us.

I have an IQ of 155 and made deans list last fall at my college. I am perseuing two degrees, one in political science and one in history (psychology was too boring and my university's program was overcrowded.) I graduated in the top 10% of my high school class and had a 3.75 GPA along with several academic awards for excellence. I am by no means stupid and I define those who prevert the word of God for hate and greed as imbicles who shouldn't be called Christians.

I am sorry for getting steamed, but I am tired of all Christians in the US getting a bad rap because some are too imbreed or retarded to pull their heads out of their asses long enough to get from fresh, non-hate filled air so as to get their brain cells to live again.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-08-11 05:34am

Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists and any similar socially harmful assholes I will really look down upon, in all honesty, unless they're actually so cool they break the mould.

Ordinary christians, i.e. christians that might as well be just like me only happen to have a "religious quirk," I tend to think believe in something utterly wrong that was probably the result of christianity being the "bog standard" religion in our society. I won't hold it against them, we both know that they can't win in a debate, but I don't think it matters that much so long as they're not arseholes. If they want to debate religion, I'll do it, and refrain from the bile so long as I'm with them and not the aforementioned kook cults.

I try not to "evangelise" or hate unless there's obviously some injustice, lies or inaccuracy going on, but then I do the same thing to anyone, atheists included. If someone tells me they're a christian, I'll try and find out how harmful their beliefs are before forming a specific opinion, like find out their views on homosexuality and science, especially evolution.

Hillary · Post by **Hillary** » 2006-08-11 08:16am

I tend to agree with Superman. I honestly can't understand why anyone with intelligence and in possession of the facts believes in any religion and I automatically think less of them if they do.

Probably unfair of me, but it seems that the more devout a person is, the less intelligent they turn out to be. All anecdotal and highly subjective I know.

I think what annoys me about a large percentage of religious people is that they seem to be happy to poke fun at the "whacko" religions, but the shutters come down the moment you discuss their religion.

An example - the other week I was in a pub with a group of friends and the subject of Tom Cruise's baby came up (get better friends I hear you cry

). One Irish girl thought it was hilarious that the baby had to be born in silence because of his Scientologist views. When I pointed out that this was no more bizarre than the Pope declaring that painkillers were off limits as the pain of childbirth was a punishment from God, the girl actually shouted "lalalalalalalala" and walked off. She didn't actually stick her fingers in her ears but that would have been the next step.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-08-11 09:57am

A Christian can be very intelligent, and yet have emotional blinders with respect to certain issues; in the (rather conservative) community I was raised in, I've found that to be more the case than rabid assholism. Someone can be stupid in some areas and brilliant in others; I rather think that's the case with most Christians.

And no, I don't think a Christian must automatically be stupid. Did you prejudge me like that when you found out I was Christian?

EDIT: But perhaps, because of my upbringing in a conservative Christian community, I'm more forgiving of Christian stupidity than some people are. I know how they think, because I've thought that way in the past, so I've got a measure of empathy for conservative Christians.

Oh, and Supes? Have you read Darth Wong's essay on flavors of Christians?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-08-11 10:02am

I never assume because I always want the person to demonstrate for me their stupidity. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, I adopt wait and see because I've met also so really dumb fucking morons that their ideas on religion had nothing to do with their lack of a brain.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-08-11 11:09am

I'd have to agree somewhat with Superman on the issue. I don't go out of my way to think less of people who believe strongly in a religion, in fact I usually look to people as a blank slate much of the time (even though the odds in this country of meeting one are much higher than not).

I suppose it has to do with the fact that I have met very few liberal christians out in the real world (and even less liberal Muslims). There have been a few who genuinely seem ok, though of course our views differ in some basis, they are not complete retards regarding rights of others. If I were to meet more of them, perhaps my views would change, but I don't see them.

Even so, most liberal christians believe in such things as the flood myths, Adam and Eve etc, and that does make it harder to not think of these people as...maybe not less intelligent (because they can be far more intelligent than I), but more conditioned to shutting off their brain when they wander into that subject area. I think as long as their outlook towards civil rights and the general acting of people follows more of the liberal path, we can and do get along just fine.

The problem is, most Christians, and even nearly all the liberal Christians I've met, tend not to understand the idea of "not going there". They will engage you in how much they love Jesus, or send spam mail your way (I had a liberal Christian do this even after I told her (politely) to stop. Then I did a couple of point-by-point rebuttals of her articles and it promptly stopped after that) or otherwise make it fully known that they believe in God and....really...you should too.

No matter how liberal, I think it's hard for a Christian to expect to be looked at as intelligent by athiests or (possibly) agnostics ON THIS ISSUE because of the certain fundemental concepts that have to be believed based soley on the say-so of some book.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-11 11:37am

The Flood myth is a litmus test for me. Not all Christians take it literally, but when I meet someone who does take it literally, I can't help but wonder what's wrong with him: whether his gullibility is a result of powerful indoctrination or a weak brain. The second part of the litmus test is to point out that the story was probably just an exaggeration of a much more mundane story derived from folk tales involving the occasional regional flood, and then see how they react. Some of them nod and say that's reasonable, while others get up in arms and start spouting "flood geology" bullshit.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2006-08-11 11:49am

As an atheist, I think that a belief in a God requires a barrier of ignorance to be put up. However, I think there are different extents in which this wall can be put up, whether it's just a small one on the issue of the existence of God, all the way to the Great Wall of God-Created-The-World-6000-Years-Ago.

As already has been pointed out, it is easy to be willfully ignorant and stupid on one issue, but be smart and clever on another. That's how fundies managed to accrue so much power...by being politically savvy.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2006-08-11 12:46pm

Like Mike, I wait until certain arguments get used before I begin declaring people idiots. Usually, it's bible flood, exodus, Babel, defense of atrocities, or things like ontological arguments, unmoved movers, evolutionary strawmen. Etc.

I'm actually willing to raise my perceptions a notch if they admit that their belief is irrational.

Post by **Edi** » 2006-08-11 04:22pm

I raise mental warning flags whenever anyone comes right out and states being a Christian right off the bat, especially a foreigner and doubly so if North American, but I don't react to it at first until they demonstrate stupidity. I consider anyone who accepts creationism a moron unless they are very young, in which case I will make an effort to educate them. I also don't cut any slack to the frothing at the mouth social regressives (such as that guy I mentioned in the Trolls of Other Boards thread).

Generally Christians here in Finland are not a problematic lot, but there has been an alarming rise in cretinist ideas and there's a vocal group of the mouthbreathing fuckwit variety here as well. Fortunately our education system is strong enough to mute their cries to barely audible whining.

Edi

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-08-11 04:44pm

I typically won't care if someone's a Christian unless the first thing they state right off the bat involves their religious beliefs. Upon which I'll automatically put their intelligence into consideration. But if they otherwise act rational and keep their beliefs to themself without having to remind you they're a Christian every 30 seconds, it's no big deal.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-08-11 04:50pm

Introducing yourself as Christian is suspect, yea.

Any of the endless ways to imply evolution is wrong? Red flag. Even my sister gets that red flag raised.

Any kind of handing my some kind of pamplet or similar.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2006-08-11 05:01pm

SirNitram wrote:Introducing yourself as Christian is suspect, yea.

That's really good.

If religion dominates a person's life to such an extent that they advertise it at an introduction, it's a safe bet they're a fundie, an idiot, or somewhat disturbed.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-08-11 05:08pm

I try not to judge unless they interject it into regular conversation or use it to justify why gays should not have any rights. I got both of those criteria in five minutes of meeting two guys at college and I spent the rest of my 4 months before I withdrew from the course arguing with them.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-08-11 05:13pm

I think of it more as a psychological blind spot than stupidity, most of the time. I mean, my father is both a physics professor and a devout (but not fundamentalist) Christian. He's in possession of the scientific facts and just does whatever mental maneuvering is required to fit them into his religious framework.

I'm sure indoctrination is a major factor for smart Christians. They generally get the salvation routine drilled into them for years before they're mentally equipped to critically evaluate it. On top of that, the Church is frequently a very helpful support group for members who need it. I know that people from their congregation have been very helpful to my parents during their recent medical crises, and such help reinforces what they've learned about the inherent goodness of Christians and Christianity.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-11 09:03pm

Ted C wrote:I'm sure indoctrination is a major factor for smart Christians. They generally get the salvation routine drilled into them for years before they're mentally equipped to critically evaluate it. On top of that, the Church is frequently a very helpful support group for members who need it. I know that people from their congregation have been very helpful to my parents during their recent medical crises, and such help reinforces what they've learned about the inherent goodness of Christians and Christianity.

That's part of the tribalism: you help members of your tribe. I have to wonder how much help you'd get from a Christian congregation if you walked in one day as a complete stranger and said that your satanist brother was having a medical crisis.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2006-08-11 09:19pm

I generally don't mind it if they don't talk about it much. If it wriggles its way into conversations too often, however, I'll begin to get irritable. In return, I don't talk about my lack of religious conviction unless previously spurned to do so.

Oddly enough, one of my best friends in middle school was a fundamentalist. It just didn't really 'click' with me because she was actually comparatively reserved about it. Sure, she believed all the stupid bullshit, but she limited her actual conversations to more intelligent topics almost always (and when it did come up, it was usually brief and dismissable.) Now, I wouldn't give her the time of day now (since I'm a little less... you know, naive and middle-schooler-y

) but when I find a more sane Christian that has the same general tendency to keep it out of discussion, I don't tend to mind much.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-08-11 11:49pm

If I can hold a conversation with someone for half an hour or so, and talk about either religion or things that fundies find offensive (like homosexuality or Evolution) and not be able tell if they are a Christian or not, then it really doesn't matter to me. If someone wishes to believe in god, any god, then far be it from me to think any lower of them for it. Its only if religion consumes their lives, or emerges nastily in regards to certain subjects that I really care, and if it does, then yes, I tend to steer clear of them.

Still, I do occasionally wonder about the religious affiliation of people I meet in passing or see in media, especially seemingly intellegent ones. Polls show that at least half of the US is in some way fundamentalist, and not all of them can be Bible Belt hicks; there must be a fairly sizeable number of creationists and the like who are simply discerning and reserved enough to keep their own extreme views to themselves in public.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-08-11 11:59pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:I have an IQ of 155 and made deans list last fall at my college. I am perseuing two degrees, one in political science and one in history (psychology was too boring and my university's program was overcrowded.) I graduated in the top 10% of my high school class and had a 3.75 GPA along with several academic awards for excellence. I am by no means stupid and I define those who prevert the word of God for hate and greed as imbicles who shouldn't be called Christians.

Nothing against you personally (I admire the Catholic viewpoint that education is required to be a clergyman), but every Christian I have ever debated claims to have something like 3 PhD’s, and they can barely spell singly syllable words. Grades mostly reflect effort, not intelligence, and the IQ measurements are not very accurate.

Now, you obviously are a very intelligent person (although I find it odd that political science is somehow more interesting to you than psychology

), but every fundie asshole and his mom seem to honestly believe that they are rocket scientists...

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-08-12 03:50am

Superman wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:I have an IQ of 155 and made deans list last fall at my college. I am perseuing two degrees, one in political science and one in history (psychology was too boring and my university's program was overcrowded.) I graduated in the top 10% of my high school class and had a 3.75 GPA along with several academic awards for excellence. I am by no means stupid and I define those who prevert the word of God for hate and greed as imbicles who shouldn't be called Christians.
Nothing against you personally (I admire the Catholic viewpoint that education is required to be a clergyman), but every Christian I have ever debated claims to have something like 3 PhD’s, and they can barely spell singly syllable words. Grades mostly reflect effort, not intelligence, and the IQ measurements are not very accurate.

Now, you obviously are a very intelligent person (although I find it odd that political science is somehow more interesting to you than psychology ), but every fundie asshole and his mom seem to honestly believe that they are rocket scientists...

I understand where you are coming from. For the record, I believe in evolution and a non-bibical creation, basicly whatever the scientific community supports. I am still in college and working on two BAs, both of which are in social sciences. I admit that I am no scientist. While biology is a hobby, I really don't care for physics or chemistry, though I did show an aptitude in high school in all three areas. This by no means makes me qualified to judge, so I leave it to the experts.

My beliefs in God are quite unique. I do pick and choose from the Bible and I don't listen to the first half of Genesis or most of the Old Testement for that matter. The Book of Revelation is a purely symbolic book that I think is only in the Bible to give it an ending. I stick to the Gospels mostly and some of Paul. I am quite liberal when it comes to religion. But I still believe in God and Jesus and the basic message of the Bible, at least as I see it.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2006-08-12 04:11am

I think a few other litmus tests I used are

a) evolution, when they dismiss using shitty reasoning (ie arguing from incredulity) or resorting to redefining it to suit themselves

b) homosexuality - ie using its unnatural argument.

But I find that even smart Christians (ie those who get good grades) don't have a grasp of logic when applied to arguments (as opposed to say, applying logic to maths problems).