The economics of Wh40k

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2002-12-18 02:27pm

How does the Imperium of Man maintain such a large and extensive military, especially when waging what is a near endless war on all fronts?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-12-18 03:04pm

With millions of worlds that is no problem.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-18 03:06pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:With millions of worlds that is no problem.

and yes..there are more than a million worlds..

" a million worlds and more "

Its not like the Administratum keeps a census..

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-18 03:09pm

Crom wrote:How does the Imperium of Man maintain such a large and extensive military, especially when waging what is a near endless war on all fronts?

You know, I had a nice big post on this a while back...I knew I shoulda kept it.

The main industrial producers/factorys of the Imperium are the Hive worlds some of which are coruscant style, some of which have lots of massive enclaves and a fuckload of wasteland etc.

These worlds will be devoted to industry, some specialising some just including everything, all will produce armaments and found regiments on demand, orbital Hives also exist and the systmes will usually have orbital defenses production facilitys spread throughout the system.

These worlds are usually part of a web of hive systems in a sector, lots of trade etc. then there will be a massively industrialised and defended sector capital system

lots of agricultural/feral/city worlds, devoted to food production, specialising in particulary industrys or just generic "developed" systems with citys lots of industry and producton etc etc, its worth noting that even feral worlds can produce starships.

Then there is a network of worlds devoted to nothing but military production these are Forge Worlds, self suffiecient machine worlds that produce equipment for the main fighting arm of the Imperium ..i.e. the Guard, although the guard get vast amounts of supplys from anywhere they go.

Then there are the space marine empires, a marine chapter, be it planet or mobile fortress based will be entirely self suffiecient and able to produce its own equipment and supplys as well as maintaining their own PDF forces and sometimes titheing to the Imperium.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-12-18 03:09pm

white_rabbit wrote:
Cpt_Frank wrote:With millions of worlds that is no problem.
and yes..there are more than a million worlds..

" a million worlds and more "

Its not like the Administratum keeps a census..

Not really familiar with 40K stuff, other than that they've a vast army and nearly endless resources. Post some useful links to that universe.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-12-18 03:16pm

The raising of each regiment, equiping and training costs are part of a planetly governers fief payments to the imperium of man (I.e in exchange for having the right of the IoM coming down on your enemies, supporting your rule, against internal natural threats (i.e political foes) and alien/chaos. believe me this aid is vital to a governer a Chaos taint is simply beyond most worlds ability to defeat. (example on one world wjhich was behind a line of conquest by chaos forces and therefore cut off, the war had raged for FORTY YEARS. (they were not a world a standard 40k tech levels more 1st world war, yes it had been a forty year long trench war. (ref straight silver) maintence and pay from taxes (or other payment levels for less populous worlds who cannot raise guard regimrents. EG an agricultural world with a small population might send instead of men food, a high tech world will send a portion of weapon parts etc. Individual payment levels and what needs to be extracted from each world is a complicated process. In short each planet pays a portion of it's wealth and production, and in many cases manpower to the imperium of man)

Oh two last things the Imperial Guard must be drawn from the best Planetly defence forces on on a world no passing off the scum, who wouldn't know what end of a lasgum you pointy at the target. That sort of thing is not welcome and punished... quite severly

Finnaly exceptions to the rules above. Marine recuitment worlds, Adeptus Mechanicus and the Church. Any world ruled by these three bodies are taxed by the above organisations. The MArines through recuitment only in most cases. (exception Ultramarines) the Adeptus Mechanicus does similar things as the Imperial guard but for it's armies. and the Church well that depends.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-18 03:33pm

some imperial regiments are scum regiments - their the cannon fodder

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-12-18 03:47pm

Well yes... but thats usually because the rejects where even worse!!!

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-12-19 02:04am

Pity those who face an IG regiment from Ultramar

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-19 02:09am

Not really, their equipment may be good, but the cream of the planet is always going to go to the Space Marine Chapter, and they don't have any special environmental conditions to set them apart.
Skippy Says: "A smiley face is not used to mark a minefield. "

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-19 04:21pm

consequences wrote:Not really, their equipment may be good, but the cream of the planet is always going to go to the Space Marine Chapter, and they don't have any special environmental conditions to set them apart.
Skippy Says: "A smiley face is not used to mark a minefield. "

Apart from every Ultramar Empire citizen recieving military training from the age of 6 you mean ?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-19 07:41pm

white_rabbit wrote:The main industrial producers/factorys of the Imperium are the Hive worlds some of which are coruscant style, some of which have lots of massive enclaves and a fuckload of wasteland etc.

I don't think they have anything on _that_ scale, given the quote I found(in "Age of the Imperium") that said "A Hive world has more than 100,000,000,000, but less than 500,000,000,000" Thats 100 billion to half a trillion, but it's not too far away from Coruscant levels of many trillions.
I dunno about Terra itself though.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-19 07:43pm

Though really, I am just nitpicking, even with 100 billion you could have a Coruscant style world so the point is moot.

gravity · Post by **gravity** » 2002-12-19 10:10pm

Highly inefficiently, which is why they have over a million worlds, but only about a million Space Marines (though many more IG).

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-12-19 10:15pm

gravity wrote:Highly inefficiently, which is why they have over a million worlds, but only about a million Space Marines (though many more IG).

Yes it's inefficent that they only have a million super soldiers, whose production takes years, are only chosen from the best imaginable candiates, (Usually people who have made a name for themselves in a combat setting) that they can get, when they are at a very specfic age range. Which is co-incidently puberty, so the people they recruit are people who have made a name for themselves as people you don't mess with when they are still teenagers. Yep thats inefficent... wait no it's not!!!

The IoM is as efficent as it can be, when you are talking about a Billion planet empire that has to tell with constant warfare, and internal problems that have to be dealt with for the sake of humanity....

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2002-12-20 02:02pm

With the backing of countless billions of worlds, many of which are devoted entirely to military equipment production, they would have the resources to support an insanely large military.

The presence of super-corporations and merchant princes provide the transfer of resources.

The governing body seems incredibly inefficient. Despite a massive administrative body they can't keep track of their planets and their military. Corruption seems rampant due to the influences of Chaos despite the efforts of a powerful oppressive Church Inquisition. Rebellion seems a common occurance. It is as if, despite the near infinite resources, the IoM has spread itself too far and too thin.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-20 03:02pm

They have a rally crappy situation to work with in the first place. Have you tried running an empire that size when your enemies can totally fuck with your communications system?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-20 04:01pm

Skelron wrote:The IoM is as efficent as it can be, when you are talking about a Billion planet empire that has to tell with constant warfare, and internal problems that have to be dealt with for the sake of humanity....

Billion? Lay off the crack, at best it's a million plus some more.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-20 04:21pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Skelron wrote:The IoM is as efficent as it can be, when you are talking about a Billion planet empire that has to tell with constant warfare, and internal problems that have to be dealt with for the sake of humanity....
Billion? Lay off the crack, at best it's a million plus some more.

He's right you know. Its a million plus some insignificant planets with less than a thousand people on them.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-20 04:27pm

No, I don't know how he's right since nothing like it is said anywhere to my knowledge, it was just an arbitrary number pulled from thin air, just as viable as 1 million worlds plus one thousand with less than a thousand people on it, both pulled from nowhere.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-12-20 05:00pm

IIRC almost every world pays a tithe. over 1 Million worlds paying tithes = $$$. Plus all the other stuff like taxes, etc.

General G · Post by **General G** » 2002-12-20 06:26pm

Some of the fluff mentions Forge Worlds which are planetary wide factory complexs run by the Adeptus Mechanicus

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-20 08:18pm

I was always under the impression that the IoM was billions of planets, at least hundreds of millions or so. Mainly becuase of the story in the 2nd edition of the imperal gaurd codex. The one about the famouse adimaral expanding the IoE. I belive he counquered thousands of worlds, went passed the Astronimicon. And his path is too small to show on the main map. I mean it was really insingant compared to the rest of the map.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2002-12-20 08:37pm

gravity wrote:Highly inefficiently, which is why they have over a million worlds, but only about a million Space Marines (though many more IG).

IoM purposely kept the number of Space Marines low as to better control them (they wish

), and to prevent the possiblity(sp) of another [/i]Horus Heresey level revolt.

gravity · Post by **gravity** » 2002-12-21 12:05am

Skelron wrote:
gravity wrote:Highly inefficiently, which is why they have over a million worlds, but only about a million Space Marines (though many more IG).
Yes it's inefficent that they only have a million super soldiers, whose production takes years, are only chosen from the best imaginable candiates, (Usually people who have made a name for themselves in a combat setting) that they can get, when they are at a very specfic age range. Which is co-incidently puberty, so the people they recruit are people who have made a name for themselves as people you don't mess with when they are still teenagers. Yep thats inefficent... wait no it's not!!!

Yes it is, one "super soldier" per *planet* (on average), where each plant has up to several hundred billion people, is *not* efficient no matter how much fanboy spin you put on it.

The IoM is as efficent as it can be

No it's not, religious opression and wasteful beaureaucray add up to a system where the potential of billions of people is almost completely wasted, and where innovation is almost completely stifled.

when you are talking about a Billion planet empire that has to tell with constant warfare, and internal problems that have to be dealt with for the sake of humanity....

1 million planets, not 1 billion. And the constant warfare is at least partly their own fault; if they would learn to ally with the Eldar and other potentially friendly races, rather than being culturally bigoted against them (this does apply both ways), they would be in a much more stable external situation, and if they dumped the religous dogma for a more scientific and rational approach to combatting Chaos influence, and to maintaing social order, they would probably have much greater internal stability.

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The economics of Wh40k

The economics of Wh40k

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