How complex is capital ship combat?

[pellaeons_scion]

Just how complex or simple is Starship combat in SW? Seems to me (From the movies and books) that it boils down to: Point ship in direction where most weapons can be brought to bear, and fire a constant stream of turbolaser fire, with no thought towards synchronisation or batteries, and letting weapons fire at seemingly random locations on the enemy vessel in the hope of finding a weakspot in the shields. Is it as simple as this?

I know that the rapid fire rate of SW weapons would make using a constant stream of fire a valid tactic, but targeting would be similar to a starfighter, in that you would lead your target and compensate for target shift and merely fire your 'walk' your fire till the target was reached. Seems very energy expensive. Maybe they can do simulateneous barrages, perhaps all guns can be slaved to a chief weapons officer on the bridge and until then the gunners are almost free to do as they please, ordered by their indivdual gun commanders


It just seems to simple to me. No manuver, no synchronised fire, no ( apparent) fire plans, no capital scale torpedoes or missiles. And no real tactics I have seen...except for Thrawn

Is it because warfare has been such an integral part of SW life, that combat has done away with such "non-essentials" and that its merely a brutal slugging match to see whose shields give way first? And what about counter battery fire, is there any point until the shields come down?

I hope Im not rehashing. Apologies if I am

[IRG CommandoJoe]

What tactics could their possibly be with shields up? When the shields are down, then I would imagine they target specific areas according to the mission profile. For instance, the Tantive IV is desperately fleeing the Devastator. So they shoot its engines out when the shields collapse. Another instance...lets assume the Rebels ambush an Imperial Star Destroyer that has its shields lowered because of repairs or such. The Rebels would target the ISD's communications systems so that it couldn't call for reinforcements and then it would be doomed. Let's say it's the Battle of Endor, where there really isn't any specific mission or goal other than to get starfighters into the DS II and survive. The ships just blast the hell out of each other's shields until they fail, and then I would assume they target the other ship's reactors to destroy them or render them useless in combat.

[Jim Raynor]

SW fleet combat is not some idiotic brawl where everyone just shoots at random. Didn't you hear Ackbar directing his fleet at Endor when he said "Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer!" How do you justify your claims that SW fleets have no organization or tactics? And SW weapons are so accurate that it's pretty much impossible to dodge them in a capital ship, so I don't know where you got the idea that ships waste energy spraying their turbolasers in an effort to lead an enemy ship.

[omegaLancer]

I think that you are greatly mistaken, SW capital ships shows a varity of tactics.

Ambush were common, even without cloaking devices. Individual captains develop tactic to deal with varies tactical problem ranging from fighter defense to tackling other capital ships.

The winner in any battle is the one who brings superior force to bear against an enemy. In the case of the rebel, they mainly depended on hit and run tactics. While Empire attempt to maintain highly train crew to take advantage of there superior fire power and ships.

[Master of Ossus]

Generally speaking, the larger the number of ships involved in combat, the more important tactics become. Even if combat between two ships involves mindless point and shoot, combat between vast groups of ships like Bilbringi, Endor, and the Third Battle of Coruscant involve considerable planning and maneuvering.

[pellaeons_scion]

Ok, so with that in mind, up to the point of shield failure its just a free for all, with all guns firing at the target, and only then does real targeting comes into play. Interesting. So a ship is realtively safe and secure behind their shields, and once their down, only then does the true battle start?

So with shields being so important, and power not really an issue from what we know of SW power capability, does a commander order all guns to target a particular point on the shield and force a shield overload in one major salvo and hope to blow out a few emitters? Or, do they let the guns scatter their fire all over the target, forcing a great, if not as sudden, power draw until the generators cannot cope with the fluctuations in power through the shield system and finally fail, leaving either a whole facing open, or even a total failure.


And how long does a vessel last after shield failure? Is it over failry quickly when that happens, or is a vessel still capable of fighting an winning.

On the spraying of Tl fire Jim, in the capital ship combat post it was discussed that ship linear speeds were quite great, that the ranges were quite large and only a small percentage of the fire hit the target, ad with those speeds they would have to 'lead' a target. However if their targeting computers are that good and have perfect prediction then it wouldnt be a waste. I dont think they are though, can you provide some evidence of this please?

Ambush would be good tactic using hyperspace to drop in, unleash hell, then leave.

Hit and run tactics by the rebellion. I kinda wondered how that would work, if a fighters weapons wouldnt penetrate Cap ship shields. Maybe the rebel fleet had a bigger role than has been stated?

[Ghost Rider]

For the most part Isard's Revenge showed us that shields have different areas they cover...primarily 8 if I remember.

Also the hit-and run of the Rebellion was to do damage before Cap ships got there...it kill a convoy of suppiles or capture before the ISD got there.

[pellaeons_scion]

Havent read that oone. Will have to. Fighter raids on convoys, that I understand. I just remember somewhere I read talked about how the rebellion captured a fair few Neb-b's using Y wings...cant remember where.

MOO...Could you give me an outline of the battle of Bilbringi, and the manuvers/tactics etc?

[Sea Skimmer]

Read Chapter 7 of Tyrants Test. That will give you an idea of whats involved in a Wars spacebattle

[pellaeons_scion]

Dont have that book. And my book store doenst stock SW..fascists. Amazon here I come

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

With long-range fire, the importance of maneuver often tends to decline. Besides, do remember that you only hear a very limited exchange in most battles (between the most senior bridge officers.) The gunnery officer might be devising ten ingenious ways to beat down the other guy's shields first every minute, and you'd never know it. All you heard was probably some generic targetting orders.

Battles are a part of, but not all of, Star Wars.

The basic capship strategies of Bilbringi were roughly as follows (a fusing of TLC and Isard's Revenge)

The Imperials used Interdictors to drag the Rebel fleet out of space BEFORE it could reach Bilbringi proper, using an equal or superior force to the Rebels (probably.)

The Imperials are in some kind of hemispherical shape around the Rebels. Supposedly, that formation will help "promote containment." I suppose the idea is that if the Rebels run, they'll be hit in the back by the Imperial heavy weapons, and they can't even concentrate their shields aft to protect their engines, because there would be other ships pounding on their flanks "keeping them honest" (as they say in Solo Command.) And because the rear fire arc is poor in most warships, the Imperial warships can probably also divert power from shield to guns and increase their attack strength FURTHER.

The Rebels were in some kind of cone shape. I suppose the main idea is that it helps keep at least some of each ship's flanks clear, allowing them to concentrate shields. They would also be keeping out of the way of each other's fire. They can focus firepower quite effectively on a target that way too.

The next Imperial decision involved their fire plan. They can try and wear down the big hitters, but apparently they chose to knock out the Rebel support ships (presumably quickly) first, possibly to avoid harassing fire. The Rebel plan, if any, is unknown.

For each individual ship, there are some decisions to be made. They have a target. But how best to hit it? Isard's Revenge explicitly mentions two firing doctrines. The crew can concentrate all fire on one target (Moonshadow's decision when targetting Direption) or concentrate on several points (Direption's decision on Moonshadow.) There are of course also power allocation concerns, but you won't hear most of it.

This battle plan seemed to have went well until a few surprise moves by Aves and Rogue Squadron (along with two Assault Frigates which somehow escaped the entrapment - not impossible, they just have to run a net of fire which may or may not be focused on them at the moment.) They attacked the shipyards.

The court's split on this point now, due to a lack of detailed data. Half of us (I once did this on ASVS) think that Pellaeon should have maintained the superior position prepared by the now dead-Thrawn and bombard the rest of the Rebel fleet, assuming that his fleet was in relatively good order. The other half thinks that the fleet seems to be in too severe a disarray to continue, and Pellaeon was right to retreat.

In any case, Chimaera apparently acted as a blocker to draw fire while everyone else prepared a retreat. Two Star Destroyers went to ensure that the retreat will be free of interference (by securing the escape vector.) Most likely, the Star Destroyers were the last to retreat.

[Master of Ossus]

Havent read that oone. Will have to. Fighter raids on convoys, that I understand. I just remember somewhere I read talked about how the rebellion captured a fair few Neb-b's using Y wings...cant remember where.

MOO...Could you give me an outline of the battle of Bilbringi, and the manuvers/tactics etc?

Bilbringi was fought for a shipyard that had a special kind of sensor installed, which could detect a cloaked warship. At Bilbringi, the Imperials were attempting to ensure that the NR fleet would be trapped, and caught between the firing arcs of all of their big guns. With this in mind, Grand Admiral Thrawn deployed his Interdictor cruisers in a ring around the expected NR position. He then deployed the rest of his forces in a half-sphere, to form a bowl shape to capture the NR and open fire on their ships. By all accounts, the battle was going poorly for the under-gunned Imperials, but Thrawn would still have managed to pull out a victory had he not been slain at the crucial moment.

In regards to the question about the shields, starships tend to focus on individual portions of an enemy's ship until its shields fail. They then concentrate their fire on that portion of the ship to try to knock out the remaining weapons and capabilities that that portion of the ship grants. Usually, this also results in the vessel's destruction. A ship without shields that is up against a single enemy capital ship has a chance, so long as it retains its starfighter cover. Starfighters are incapable of damaging or destroying a capital ship until its shields fail, but are heavily employed in attacking areas of an enemy ship that that ship is trying to protect. If a capital ship suffers a partial shield failure, it generally maneuvers to "hide" that portion of the ship from its assailant. This is effective, so long as the enemy has no fighters to launch torpedo attacks against the stricken vessel, and to prevent this, capital ships rely on their own fighter screens. A capital ship in a large fleet engagement that suffers a total shield loss, or that suffers a shield failure so quickly that it is unable to maneuver, will be destroyed in the next volley from its enemy's guns.

[omegaLancer]

The fact is that Turbo laser can be very accurate over long distants as long as the target doesnot make any sharp manuevering.

with WWII battle ships, we look at weapon lag times of 20 to 30 seconds between when a weapon is fired and when the shell hits. And even with the host of factors ( wind direction, rolling of the sea,etc) hits were still achieved. This was using hand crank analog computers and optical sighting systems. So with computers and hi tech optical system similar ranges such be expected.

In battles of large formation of ships, long range fire would be more effective, so it would not be unheard of fleets opening up at 30 or more light seconds. Especial if one side has managed to go un detected.

The question is what is meant by peak shielding, if it means that maxium value a shield has, and if shield are slow to recharge then the farther you can strike the better, then it a battle of who can direct the most fire power at the greatest range.

[Lord Pounder]

Positioning of the fleet is also a major tatical concern. As an Imperial or Rebel admiral you have to consider how best to maximise your firepower, Cover weaker shisp such as carriers, and properly utilise Inderdiction Cruisers. Another factor to consider is keeping an exit vector open incase you get ur ass kicked while trying to deny the same to the enemy

[Ender]

It just seems to simple to me. No manuver, no synchronised fire, no ( apparent) fire plans, no capital scale torpedoes or missiles. And no real tactics I have seen...except for Thrawn

Everything right there is wrong.

Manuvering is still very much a part of combat. It plays into all kinds of different tactcs and ambushes that you see pulled, from the Ackbar slash to the Thrawn Pincher.
Synchronized fire is all over in the NJO books.
Fire plans are mentioned all the time, such as when Krennel told them to "break it's back" in reference to an Nebulon B being targeted, or the Loren's Spitball, or even basic disabeling.
Capital scale torps are present, they are on the Victory class, the Executor class, Golan battlestations, and MC 90 cruisers.
Tactics are present in a number of occassions, such as the Attack on Doornik 319, any Zahn book, Stackpole books, The Enemy Lines series, Destiney's Way, etc.

[Mr Bean]

Fleet battles in SW Mirror WWII Battles of yesteryear but muuuch much more complicated

For,Aft,Starboard,Port,Venteral and Dorsal

Six shield sections any of which can be refoced with all the power of the others or quickly brought back up with power from the others

With Light-minute range weapons long range battles ARE possible if not for Light-Hour Ranged Jamming and Fractional C speeds


Take that 2KM Long ship, Draw a 2,000KM sized circule around it, It can be anywhere in that circule in under four seconds making Long range targeting VERY hard
AND you trying to hit it with a 1 Meter sized shot
(This is worst case fokes in reality its not nearly that bad but it gives you a good idea of diffculty)

Lots and lots of factors involved in Fleet battles we don't see

[Ender]

Ok, so with that in mind, up to the point of shield failure its just a free for all, with all guns firing at the target, and only then does real targeting comes into play. Interesting. So a ship is realtively safe and secure behind their shields, and once their down, only then does the true battle start?

No, because you want to manuver and what not to keep them from being able to bring down the shields in the first place. Plus you are forgetting that a battle is much larger then the ships involved here. The battle can be won through superior tactic without anyone's shields coming down at all, so long as the objective is reached.

So with shields being so important, and power not really an issue from what we know of SW power capability, does a commander order all guns to target a particular point on the shield and force a shield overload in one major salvo and hope to blow out a few emitters? Or, do they let the guns scatter their fire all over the target, forcing a great, if not as sudden, power draw until the generators cannot cope with the fluctuations in power through the shield system and finally fail, leaving either a whole facing open, or even a total failure.

Depends on the commander

And how long does a vessel last after shield failure? Is it over failry quickly when that happens, or is a vessel still capable of fighting an winning.

Nothing is certain there. The Armor still lets the ships hang in there, and they can usually get their shields back up if they have enough time.

Ambush would be good tactic using hyperspace to drop in, unleash hell, then leave.

Yes, but it is difficult to pull off because of the gravity wells and what not.

Hit and run tactics by the rebellion. I kinda wondered how that would work, if a fighters weapons wouldnt penetrate Cap ship shields. Maybe the rebel fleet had a bigger role than has been stated?

Given the nature of shields in Wars and the strength of torpedos, the fighters could do what is usually attributed to them in the early stages of the war.

[BenRG]

I imagine that when the ships get to what I have heard poetically described as 'knife fighting' distance, tactics are less important than firepower. SW capital ships don't have much in the way of manoeuvrability, making up for it with rock-hard shields, armour and astouding firepower.

However, the initial manoeuvres probably look a lot like old-style Battleship fighting tactics, only in 3D rather than 2D. The objective is to direct as much of your guns onto the enemy's ships while minimising your own exposure. How starfighters may alter this, I'm not sure. I have always liked the idea that a squadron of Y-Wings, if properly escorted, could kill an ISD2 with a hail of protorps.

[Mr Bean]

How starfighters may alter this, I'm not sure. I have always liked the idea that a squadron of Y-Wings, if properly escorted, could kill an ISD2 with a hail of protorps.

Very simple Fighters turn unshield ships sections into tinnny bits of unshield ship sections along with alot of other things


Big ship smacks down shield,
Other ship rolls to present full powered section
Fighters blow large holes through downed shield section

Basic idea

[Darth Fanboy]

If the shields were down and they got close enough the Y-Wings could do serious damage, especially if they hit the bridge or the engines. if the ISD's shields were up though then you're dreaming. It took A squadron of X-Wings with elite pilots, A Squadron of Twi'Lek Deathseeds and a few Gand Bombers that accidentally found a remote operated Alderaanian War Cruiser to take down a VSD. (Michael Stackpole's "The Bacta War") It might have been a VSDII but a suadron of Y wings on its own would be crushed.

Not that I wouldn't mind a squadron of Y wings taking down an ISD, it would make those long games of SW:Rebellion go much easier playing as the Rebs.

[Exonerate]

SW fleet combat is not some idiotic brawl where everyone just shoots at random. Didn't you hear Ackbar directing his fleet at Endor when he said "Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer!" How do you justify your claims that SW fleets have no organization or tactics? And SW weapons are so accurate that it's pretty much impossible to dodge them in a capital ship, so I don't know where you got the idea that ships waste energy spraying their turbolasers in an effort to lead an enemy ship.

Starcraft style tactics aren't exactly very advanced...

[Lord Pounder]

Also i would like to point out that the "Tanks at 10 paces" theme of the battle of Endor was a very very rare thing. Even Ackbar with all his tatics hadn't a clue what to do, he was trying to bluff the Imperial Forces.

[phongn]

Also i would like to point out that the "Tanks at 10 paces" theme of the battle of Endor was a very very rare thing. Even Ackbar with all his tatics hadn't a clue what to do, he was trying to bluff the Imperial Forces.

AFAIK, Ackbar essentially created the Republic's close-in melee fighting doctrine then and there.

[HemlockGrey]

Starcraft style tactics aren't exactly very advanced...

Oh, sure they are. Manuevering, trench fighting, it's all good.

[Sea Skimmer]

SW fleet combat is not some idiotic brawl where everyone just shoots at random. Didn't you hear Ackbar directing his fleet at Endor when he said "Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer!" How do you justify your claims that SW fleets have no organization or tactics? And SW weapons are so accurate that it's pretty much impossible to dodge them in a capital ship, so I don't know where you got the idea that ships waste energy spraying their turbolasers in an effort to lead an enemy ship.

Starcraft style tactics aren't exactly very advanced...

Desert Saber was essentially two corps of tanks driving towards another corps in the open desert while firing. Doesn't mean that that each side was not capable of far more if the situation required it.