Saruman vs. Count Dooku

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-12-20 03:55pm

Crown wrote:I have read the the Lord of the Rings twice now. Can someone tell me exactly where Gandalf 'crumbles a mountain when defeating the Balrog' in the book? I seem to have missed that part.

And D. Turtle is right, in the Hobitt, Gandalf was nearly killed by a pack of wolves, but the Eagle swooped him out of a tree. Mind you this is from Bilbo's POV, so we don't know whether or not Gandalf could have actually survived.

Sorry, but Gandalf cannot be killed... he is one of the three immortals that were send to middle-earth to stop sauron ( who is an immortal too )...

Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey and .... the Brown ( don't know the name )... against Sauron the Black...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-21 02:59am

Oh please Sauron was pretty much 'dead' when Frodo destroyed the one ring.

Saruman was pretty much 'dead' when Wormtongue stabbed him and slit his throat.

Anymore fairytales?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-21 03:06am

I back Saruman for this, as it is established that Saruman > Gandalf The Grey. This is relevant because Gandalf & Saruman would be able to do all the same spells. At Weathertop, when Gandalf fought the Nazgul there it was described as "Like the firey beacons of old". IE: He made lots of fire, whether or not this affects Dooku is up in the air though. I think it would all come down to who gets the first blow in. Saruman's immortal anyway though.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-21 03:10am

Then why couldn't he crush the Uruk-Hai at Helm's Deep by himself? Why did he need an army from Gondor? Could it be that you're exaggerating his powers? Could it be that the ability to smash a mountain would easily crush a tightly packed group of Uruk-Hai, so it's obviously hyperbole?

Look at some of the pathetic "logic" invoked in this thread: "Gandald > Balrog > thousands of orcs". Did you notice that Gandalf was RUNNING AWAY from those orcs? What happened to his epic powers? Why is he afraid of an orc, if he's godlike?

I liked LOTR as a book when I was young. I like the films, although I think some of the praise heaped upon them is excessive. But I don't see why people have to start acting like fan-whores about it. Gandalf has some neat powers, but he's a wizard in the old-fashioned Merlin sense, not a godlike character in a D&D sense, who can single-handedly nuke a small army with spells.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-21 03:12am

Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-21 03:15am

Fuck that, where both Sauron and Saruman 'die' in RotK if they were immortal?

Fuck it, I am voting Dooku on this.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-21 03:17am

Okay that should read; why did both Sauron and Saruman 'die' in RotK if they were immortal?

Any mod who wants to fix that go right ahead.

Sorry.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-21 03:43am

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?

1. I believe the reason Gandalf fled from Orcs was because he was in a human body (like Saruman), as frail as anyones, and if it is the sequence in Moria you are referring to, he had to guide the fellowship through Moria.

2. Saruman was beaten by the Ents because they were as ancient as he was, large and VERY strong, had he fought back, they would have gotten angry, and ripped him up.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-21 03:45am

About the reasons for death

Saruman: His BODY was in death, his spirit went to wherever bad guy spirits go.

Sauron: His spirit was in the ring, by putting it there heenhanced the ring, which enhanced his body.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-21 03:47am

So his physical form was killed, and he was stopped. Dunno, this kinda sounds like a victory to me. Dooku.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-21 03:51am

Gandalf wrote:1. I believe the reason Gandalf fled from Orcs was because he was in a human body (like Saruman), as frail as anyones, and if it is the sequence in Moria you are referring to, he had to guide the fellowship through Moria.

The point is that the Orcs could have killed him. All you're saying is that maybe Saruman could come back AFTER getting his ass kicked, but this doesn't change the fact that he has a frail human body, and he gets his ass kicked (and that won't happen anyway, because he won't get sent back).

2. Saruman was beaten by the Ents because they were as ancient as he was, large and VERY strong, had he fought back, they would have gotten angry, and ripped him up.

What difference does it make how old they were? The point is that they were trees, and their only attack was physical in nature, so stop spinning this bullshit yarn about how mundane physical attacks are no threat to a wizard. The ability to pick up a big rock and throw it is hardly beyond Dooku's power, and he has a lightsabre to boot.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-21 03:56am

I didn't say physical attacks wouldn't harm him, the ancient reference was basically just something I thought I'd add.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-21 03:59am

But physical attacks did harm him; they killed him. Or did you stop reading RotK just before the Hobbits arrive back into the Shire?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-21 03:59am

Okay Gandalf I am an ass.

Sorry, I misread your post.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-21 04:01am

That's cool, I don't write that well

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-21 04:26am

Gandalf wrote:I didn't say physical attacks wouldn't harm him, the ancient reference was basically just something I thought I'd add.

Then why do you dismiss Dooku's ability to lay the beatdown on him in a face to face confrontation? Picture Dooku and Saruman facing off, without their respective armies. Now picture the roof of the temple falling on Saruman while he gets his arms cut off. Sorry, but anyone who must flee from orcs is just not that dangerous in one-on-one combat.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2002-12-21 05:39am

Yogi wrote:You forget that Saruman is from a race of god-like beings. You also forget that Saruman > Gandalf the Grey >= Balrog > A couple thousand goblins. To get a furthur sense of scale, when Gandalf killed the Balrog, the final blow crumbled part of a mountain.

Using your logic, I can claim:
1. Wormtoungue > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins
2. Gollum > Sauron > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins
And anyway,
1000+ Goblins > Gandalf the Grey
a pack of Wolves > Gandalf the Grey
And also,

Gandalf the White wrote:I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin

It was the impact of the Balrog that broke part of the mountain.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2002-12-21 10:46am

I think some of you are forgeting that while the wizards were in their human forms, they were suseptible to death in the sense that their bodies would die. The wizards were cloaked in flesh and took the humble appearances of wizened, old men. Don't get me wrong, they were powerful and Gandalf's power was augmented by his ring but they weren't indestructible.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-12-21 11:28am

Darth Wong wrote:Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?

They swore some kind of oath that prevents them from using Magic to intefere in the world of man. This apparently does not apply to Balrog, each other, and Nazgul, but does apply to situations like orcs and wolves attacking men.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-12-21 11:35am

Pcm979 wrote:Using your logic, I can claim:
1. Wormtoungue > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins

Oh reah, I remember that fight. Man that was exciting, seeing the might of Wormtoung square off against the power of Saruman. No, wait a second. Wormtound gign't fight Saruman in Open Combat, unlike all the cases I mensioned!

Pcm979 wrote:2. Gollum > Sauron > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins

Yeah, I remember the time Gollum unleashed his King-fu powers on . . . no wait, Gollum never fought Sauron, did he?

Pcm979 wrote:And anyway,
1000+ Goblins > Gandalf the Grey
a pack of Wolves > Gandalf the Grey

As I mensioned above, this was Gandalf when he couldn't use his magic. In case you forgot, a wizard without his magic is not the most durable thing in the world.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-21 01:47pm

Yogi wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?
They swore some kind of oath that prevents them from using Magic to intefere in the world of man. This apparently does not apply to Balrog, each other, and Nazgul, but does apply to situations like orcs and wolves attacking men.

Sounds like a cop out to me

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-21 02:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

He was trying to save the rest of them...

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-21 02:23pm

countdooku wrote: Dooku:

Choops off foes arms.
Force lightnings them off the ground an into walls.
Easily defeats two trained combatants with ONE lightsaber.
Controls a band of inept battledroids and Stupid Nemodians.
Skilled with a Lightsaber.
Haven't you already said that?
Defeats a Rabid Bouncing Green monkey.
he looses, and runs away
Can force throw objects wheighing hundreds of pounds.
Takes orders from a powerful but small character to movie plot.
Acts nice to good character then backstabs them.

Saruman:

Forces Foe to twirl in the middle of the floor then forces him upward into ceiling.
really only in the movie, rather silly
Lets foe out to suffer in Elements.
Controls an inept Army of Urk Hai and Stupid Wormtongue.
Fights another old longbeard Staff-toter.
Takes orders from a powerful but small character to movie plot.
?
Can control weather.
Acts nice to good character then backstabs them.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-12-21 03:47pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Sounds like a cop out to me

It's not a cop out if it's true. Lord of the Ring is like Star Wars. There is a lot of stuff they don't explain in the main Trilogy.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2002-12-21 06:49pm

Yogi wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote: Lord of the Ring is like Star Wars.

Like apples are to broccoli.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Saruman vs. Count Dooku

Who wins?