Lord Zentei wrote:Then they would be forced to treat women better there.
How so? The remaining fundamentalist men would not change their attitudes at all. It wouldn't be very hard to trace the women who had turned into men; the original men would turn against them. The remaining women who had chosen not to press the button would be more likely to be raped because of the gender imbalance.
It's a VOLUNTARY action, you tool. It's no different from sex change surgery. You might as well argue that regular sex change is "unethical" on the same ridiculous grounds. Except that in this case, they can change back at will.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Wyrm wrote:Um, the scenario is for a single button push to grant the ability to change to all people, everywhere. The actual change of gender is to be effected by will, and is reversible. There's no "tracing" of people who changed their gender, because the gender change can be effected at any time.
Yes, I understand that the change would be effected by will and would be reversible, but, still, there would be tracing. Imagine your sister decided to change gender. She would now be a he, but you'd probably notice that your sister was gone, and note the strange new man living in her room. Even if she did change back, you would know that she once changed gender. In small communities it would be very easy to figure out who had changed their sex.
So? You have still not shown that granting this ability is unethical.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Lord Zentei wrote:It's a VOLUNTARY action, you tool. It's no different from sex change surgery. You might as well argue that regular sex change is "unethical" on the same ridiculous grounds. Except that in this case, they can change back at will.
When did I ever say that pressing the button would be unethical? Nice strawman, asshat. I am merely thinking out loud about what would happen if such an option was made available. I have not stated my opinion on the matter one way or the other.
Lord Zentei wrote:So? You have still not shown that granting this ability is unethical.
Since I never said it was unethical, I am under no obligation to do so.
You have yet to explain how making this option available would force misogynistic societies to change their tune. In case you've forgotten:
Lord Zentei wrote:Then they would be forced to treat women better there.
Stranger, if you passing meet me and desire to speak to me, why should you not speak to me? And why should I not speak to you? (Walt Whitman)
"We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered." (Tom Stoppard)
Still here I carry my old delicious burdens/I carry them, men and women, I carry them with me wherever I go/I swear it is impossible for me to get rid of them/I am fill'd with them, and I will fill them in return. (Whitman)
Lord Zentei wrote:It's a VOLUNTARY action, you tool. It's no different from sex change surgery. You might as well argue that regular sex change is "unethical" on the same ridiculous grounds. Except that in this case, they can change back at will.
When did I ever say that pressing the button would be unethical? Nice strawman, asshat. I am merely thinking out loud about what would happen if such an option was made available. I have not stated my opinion on the matter one way or the other.
Then you should be more clear, goddamn it, since this is the topic of the fucking thread. Your first post here certainly gave the impression that you were in fact discussing the ethical ramifications. My first response to that post was obviously to adress the ethics issue; why did you not clarify your argument then?
Sofia wrote:You have yet to explain how making this option available would force misogynistic societies to change their tune. In case you've forgotten:
Lord Zentei wrote:Then they would be forced to treat women better there.
I have not forgotten. Simply, they risk depopulation. As for the persecution angle: those that would face percecution in their home societies for the gender swap would leave their home communities. Moreover, for a person to risk persecution for having undergone such a swap would imply that their life prior to the swap must have been pretty fucking awful, no? This allows them a choice where none existed previously. That's not to say that it is an option everyone would take.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! -- Asuka
Molyneux wrote:
I was actually wondering for awhile if there was any possible way in which this could be implemented in the real world - aren't there certain vertebrate species which have the ability to change gender based on outside conditions (or the ratio of males to females in the area)?
Yeah, the ones that spring immediately are frogs, but as far as I know, they're born with both sets of organs and don't have a penis, they have a cloaca instead. I'm not familiar with it happening in mammals.
The closest I've heard of this in mammals is a rare birth defect where genetic males are born looking genetically female, until their male organs "pop out" at puberty ( and I thought my teenage years were traumatic ). I've never heard of the reverse.
That being said, I think it's possible, with good enough bioengineering. After all, look how far a caterpillar can change.
Sharp-kun wrote:What happens if a male changes, gets pregnant, then changes back? What happens if they do this past the legal time limit for an abortion?
Let's assume it causes an alien entity to exist inside yourself. Either abort as a woman or get a dead baby stuck inside your male body.
Sharp-kun wrote:What happens if a male changes, gets pregnant, then changes back?
Depends on whether the ability is granted with safeties for this sort of thing, and whether the safeties are in favor of the 'mother' or the child.
If the safety is for the mother, we could imagine an auto-abortion, without intervening doctors (even back-alley doctors), which would be a living nightmare to our pro-life friends out there. If the safety is for the child, then we can imagine that the ability turns off for nine months.
If there is no safety, the results would be rather... messy, and let you imagine the gory details.
Sharp-kun wrote:What happens if they do this past the legal time limit for an abortion?
It depends on how messy the results are. If we have auto-abortion, it's pro-choice FTW. I can't even contemplate what happens if the safety is auto-off or nonexistent. Oy vey.
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Wyrm wrote:which would be a living nightmare to our pro-life friends out there.
Not just pro-life people really. The reason I mentioned the legal time limit was to refer to situation where birth is imminent, and the person transforms back. Thats a situation where you have an actual baby, and somethings got to happen to it.
I have no issues with people being able to change sex, or with abortion during early pregnancy, but it was a point I thought should be raised.
Sharp-kun wrote:Not just pro-life people really. The reason I mentioned the legal time limit was to refer to situation where birth is imminent, and the person transforms back. Thats a situation where you have an actual baby, and somethings got to happen to it.
Again, it depends what safeties are in place along with this ability. We can imagine that when the pregnant woman transforms into a man, the womb becomes a temporary stomach, and powerful enzymes are released into the womb-stomach to reduce the baby to melty, which is then subsequently absorbed or expelled.
Or the fetus would be summarily expelled before the change takes hold. Or the change would be canceled. Or we have the infamous pregnant man.
Darth Wong on Strollers vs. Assholes: "There were days when I wished that my stroller had weapons on it." wilfulton on Bible genetics: "If two screaming lunatics copulate in front of another screaming lunatic, the result will be yet another screaming lunatic. " SirNitram: "The nation of France is a theory, not a fact. It should therefore be approached with an open mind, and critically debated and considered."
Cornivore! | BAN-WATCH CANE: XVII | WWJDFAKB? - What Would Jesus Do... For a Klondike Bar? | Evil Bayesian Conspiracy
So how much concentration would it take for you to invoke, as Cledus T. Judd put it, 'The Change'. If it takes a lot of effort I could see a guy or girl showing off to their buddies/girlfriends their ability to become a true hermaphrodite, if it doesn't then I could see them showing off the ability to maintain hermaphrodite form whilst doing distracting activites.
My guess is this is what would happen, at least for a while. As I understand it, the fetus and placenta do most of the work supporting the fetus; that's why the pregnant-man scenario is at all possible to begin with. Even if it can be carried to term I expect it would do crazy things to a man's hormones, and be a major drain on his strength and health; worse than for a woman, since he isn't built for it. And of course a C-section would be required for birth.
Sharp-kun wrote:What happens if a male changes, gets pregnant, then changes back? What happens if they do this past the legal time limit for an abortion?
Let's assume it causes an alien entity to exist inside yourself. Either abort as a woman or get a dead baby stuck inside your male body.
What wonderful topics these are...
There are several possibilities here:
1) Conception blocks the ability to change. Meaing if a woman conceived she would not be able to make the switch until after delivery.
2) The change kills the child but spares the mother. This may result in expulsion or reabsorbtion or whatever scenario you choose.
3) Post-conception the change can occur, but it does not kill the child. This will result in a "pregnant man" scenario. Perhaps the rest of the body changes and the womb in retained. Perhaps you get an etopic pregancy sort of scenario (in which case the man would be advised to change back before it's time to give birth). There is actually some precedent for this, in cases of fetus in fetu which is when one twin entirely absorbs another prior to birth. There have been several instances over the past few years of such "pregnant" children having their parasitic twin removed.
Personally, from the standpoint of elegant design, I think #1 makes the most sense. But, of course, nature is not designed and often not at all elegant.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
I would think that the EGS route would be best in this situation - the hormonal changes in a pregnant female (whether born female or switched) prevent the use of gendershifting until after birth/miscarriage.
4) The process catastrophically fails. Depending on how the female reproductive system is hypothetically converted into the male version, you could get some truely fucked up biology happening which probably would kill if not properly handled.
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Sharp-kun wrote:What happens if a male changes, gets pregnant, then changes back? What happens if they do this past the legal time limit for an abortion?
Let's assume it causes an alien entity to exist inside yourself. Either abort as a woman or get a dead baby stuck inside your male body.
What wonderful topics these are...
There are several possibilities here:
1) Conception blocks the ability to change. Meaing if a woman conceived she would not be able to make the switch until after delivery.
2) The change kills the child but spares the mother. This may result in expulsion or reabsorbtion or whatever scenario you choose.
3) Post-conception the change can occur, but it does not kill the child. This will result in a "pregnant man" scenario. Perhaps the rest of the body changes and the womb in retained. Perhaps you get an etopic pregancy sort of scenario (in which case the man would be advised to change back before it's time to give birth). There is actually some precedent for this, in cases of fetus in fetu which is when one twin entirely absorbs another prior to birth. There have been several instances over the past few years of such "pregnant" children having their parasitic twin removed.
Personally, from the standpoint of elegant design, I think #1 makes the most sense. But, of course, nature is not designed and often not at all elegant.
Keep in mind that this is *not* a natural feature - you're pushing a button to cause a change in the human body structure (and genome) which is very carefully designed indeed.
It's a VOLUNTARY action, you tool. It's no different from sex change surgery. You might as well argue that regular sex change is "unethical" on the same ridiculous grounds. Except that in this case, they can change back at will.
-- Asuka
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