Saruman vs. Count Dooku

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Who wins?

Count Dooku
18
42%
Saruman
25
58%
 
Total votes: 43

User avatar
HRogge
Jedi Master
Posts: 1190
Joined: 2002-07-14 11:34am
Contact:

Post by HRogge »

Crown wrote:I have read the the Lord of the Rings twice now. Can someone tell me exactly where Gandalf 'crumbles a mountain when defeating the Balrog' in the book? I seem to have missed that part.

And D. Turtle is right, in the Hobitt, Gandalf was nearly killed by a pack of wolves, but the Eagle swooped him out of a tree. Mind you this is from Bilbo's POV, so we don't know whether or not Gandalf could have actually survived.
Sorry, but Gandalf cannot be killed... he is one of the three immortals that were send to middle-earth to stop sauron ( who is an immortal too )...

Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey and .... the Brown ( don't know the name )... against Sauron the Black...
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

Oh please Sauron was pretty much 'dead' when Frodo destroyed the one ring. :roll:

Saruman was pretty much 'dead' when Wormtongue stabbed him and slit his throat. :roll:

Anymore fairytales?
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16363
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Post by Gandalf »

I back Saruman for this, as it is established that Saruman > Gandalf The Grey. This is relevant because Gandalf & Saruman would be able to do all the same spells. At Weathertop, when Gandalf fought the Nazgul there it was described as "Like the firey beacons of old". IE: He made lots of fire, whether or not this affects Dooku is up in the air though. I think it would all come down to who gets the first blow in. Saruman's immortal anyway though.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Then why couldn't he crush the Uruk-Hai at Helm's Deep by himself? Why did he need an army from Gondor? Could it be that you're exaggerating his powers? Could it be that the ability to smash a mountain would easily crush a tightly packed group of Uruk-Hai, so it's obviously hyperbole?

Look at some of the pathetic "logic" invoked in this thread: "Gandald > Balrog > thousands of orcs". Did you notice that Gandalf was RUNNING AWAY from those orcs? What happened to his epic powers? Why is he afraid of an orc, if he's godlike?

I liked LOTR as a book when I was young. I like the films, although I think some of the praise heaped upon them is excessive. But I don't see why people have to start acting like fan-whores about it. Gandalf has some neat powers, but he's a wizard in the old-fashioned Merlin sense, not a godlike character in a D&D sense, who can single-handedly nuke a small army with spells.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

Fuck that, where both Sauron and Saruman 'die' in RotK if they were immortal?

Fuck it, I am voting Dooku on this.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

Okay that should read; why did both Sauron and Saruman 'die' in RotK if they were immortal?

Any mod who wants to fix that go right ahead.

Sorry.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16363
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Post by Gandalf »

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?
1. I believe the reason Gandalf fled from Orcs was because he was in a human body (like Saruman), as frail as anyones, and if it is the sequence in Moria you are referring to, he had to guide the fellowship through Moria.

2. Saruman was beaten by the Ents because they were as ancient as he was, large and VERY strong, had he fought back, they would have gotten angry, and ripped him up.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16363
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Post by Gandalf »

About the reasons for death

Saruman: His BODY was in death, his spirit went to wherever bad guy spirits go.

Sauron: His spirit was in the ring, by putting it there heenhanced the ring, which enhanced his body.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

So his physical form was killed, and he was stopped. Dunno, this kinda sounds like a victory to me. Dooku.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Gandalf wrote:1. I believe the reason Gandalf fled from Orcs was because he was in a human body (like Saruman), as frail as anyones, and if it is the sequence in Moria you are referring to, he had to guide the fellowship through Moria.
The point is that the Orcs could have killed him. All you're saying is that maybe Saruman could come back AFTER getting his ass kicked, but this doesn't change the fact that he has a frail human body, and he gets his ass kicked (and that won't happen anyway, because he won't get sent back).
2. Saruman was beaten by the Ents because they were as ancient as he was, large and VERY strong, had he fought back, they would have gotten angry, and ripped him up.
What difference does it make how old they were? The point is that they were trees, and their only attack was physical in nature, so stop spinning this bullshit yarn about how mundane physical attacks are no threat to a wizard. The ability to pick up a big rock and throw it is hardly beyond Dooku's power, and he has a lightsabre to boot.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16363
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Post by Gandalf »

I didn't say physical attacks wouldn't harm him, the ancient reference was basically just something I thought I'd add.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

But physical attacks did harm him; they killed him. Or did you stop reading RotK just before the Hobbits arrive back into the Shire?
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Post by Crown »

Okay Gandalf I am an ass. :oops: Sorry, I misread your post.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16363
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Post by Gandalf »

That's cool, I don't write that well
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Gandalf wrote:I didn't say physical attacks wouldn't harm him, the ancient reference was basically just something I thought I'd add.
Then why do you dismiss Dooku's ability to lay the beatdown on him in a face to face confrontation? Picture Dooku and Saruman facing off, without their respective armies. Now picture the roof of the temple falling on Saruman while he gets his arms cut off. Sorry, but anyone who must flee from orcs is just not that dangerous in one-on-one combat.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Pcm979
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 4092
Joined: 2002-10-26 12:45am

Post by Pcm979 »

Yogi wrote:You forget that Saruman is from a race of god-like beings. You also forget that Saruman > Gandalf the Grey >= Balrog > A couple thousand goblins. To get a furthur sense of scale, when Gandalf killed the Balrog, the final blow crumbled part of a mountain.
Using your logic, I can claim:
1. Wormtoungue > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins
2. Gollum > Sauron > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins
And anyway,
1000+ Goblins > Gandalf the Grey
a pack of Wolves > Gandalf the Grey
And also,
Gandalf the White wrote:I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin
It was the impact of the Balrog that broke part of the mountain.
Next of Kin
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2230
Joined: 2002-07-20 06:49pm
Location: too close to home

Post by Next of Kin »

I think some of you are forgeting that while the wizards were in their human forms, they were suseptible to death in the sense that their bodies would die. The wizards were cloaked in flesh and took the humble appearances of wizened, old men. Don't get me wrong, they were powerful and Gandalf's power was augmented by his ring but they weren't indestructible.
User avatar
Yogi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: 2002-08-22 03:53pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Yogi »

Darth Wong wrote:Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?
They swore some kind of oath that prevents them from using Magic to intefere in the world of man. This apparently does not apply to Balrog, each other, and Nazgul, but does apply to situations like orcs and wolves attacking men.
User avatar
Yogi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: 2002-08-22 03:53pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Yogi »

Pcm979 wrote:Using your logic, I can claim:
1. Wormtoungue > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins
Oh reah, I remember that fight. Man that was exciting, seeing the might of Wormtoung square off against the power of Saruman. No, wait a second. Wormtound gign't fight Saruman in Open Combat, unlike all the cases I mensioned!
Pcm979 wrote:2. Gollum > Sauron > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins
Yeah, I remember the time Gollum unleashed his King-fu powers on . . . no wait, Gollum never fought Sauron, did he?
Pcm979 wrote:And anyway,
1000+ Goblins > Gandalf the Grey
a pack of Wolves > Gandalf the Grey
As I mensioned above, this was Gandalf when he couldn't use his magic. In case you forgot, a wizard without his magic is not the most durable thing in the world.
User avatar
Lord Pounder
Pretty Hate Machine
Posts: 9695
Joined: 2002-11-19 04:40pm
Location: Belfast, unfortunately
Contact:

Post by Lord Pounder »

Yogi wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?
They swore some kind of oath that prevents them from using Magic to intefere in the world of man. This apparently does not apply to Balrog, each other, and Nazgul, but does apply to situations like orcs and wolves attacking men.
Sounds like a cop out to me
RIP Yosemite Bear
Gone, Never Forgotten
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Darth Wong wrote:Two questions:

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?
He was trying to save the rest of them...
2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?
Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

countdooku wrote: Dooku:

Choops off foes arms.
Force lightnings them off the ground an into walls.
Easily defeats two trained combatants with ONE lightsaber.
Controls a band of inept battledroids and Stupid Nemodians.
Skilled with a Lightsaber.
Haven't you already said that?
Defeats a Rabid Bouncing Green monkey.
he looses, and runs away

Can force throw objects wheighing hundreds of pounds.
Takes orders from a powerful but small character to movie plot.
Acts nice to good character then backstabs them.

Saruman:

Forces Foe to twirl in the middle of the floor then forces him upward into ceiling.
really only in the movie, rather silly
Lets foe out to suffer in Elements.
Controls an inept Army of Urk Hai and Stupid Wormtongue.
Fights another old longbeard Staff-toter.
Takes orders from a powerful but small character to movie plot.
?
Can control weather.
Acts nice to good character then backstabs them.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Yogi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: 2002-08-22 03:53pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Yogi »

Darth Pounder wrote:Sounds like a cop out to me
It's not a cop out if it's true. Lord of the Ring is like Star Wars. There is a lot of stuff they don't explain in the main Trilogy.
User avatar
DPDarkPrimus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 18399
Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Yogi wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote: Lord of the Ring is like Star Wars.
Like apples are to broccoli.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Post Reply