From Hoth to Helska and back...

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2006-08-21 06:08am

Yes, this is one of those RAR! scenarios. Esentially, suppose that the New Republic fleet that fought during the Second Battle of Helska (Vector Prime) replaces and is replaced by Darth Vader's Death Squadron during the Battle of Hoth as the result of an act of thread/act of god/act of fairy dust.

What can a yet to be redeemed Dark Lord of the Sith do with a non-negligible fleet, but no support or friendly harbours in a galaxy about to be invaded by the Vong? What will the New Republic do upon news of Vader's return reach them? What will do the Remmant? And what will happen with the Sith heretic Lumiya?

In the other hand, what kind of impact will have the arrival of the NJO era Heroes of Yavin have for the Rebel Alliance, with their knowledge of history and NJO Luke's mastery of the Force? What will do Palpatine after losing his apprentice? Who will become the new Sith Lord?

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-08-21 11:32am

Considering the firepower of Death Squadron I'd expect they'd probably be able to handle the Vong beachhead forces, that is if they don't simply retreat due to complete wtf-ness, after which action the fleet would presumably head to the Remnant, but as far as the Vong war as a whole goes, I doubt tthat Death Squadron would have any real effect, save perhaps a slightly stronger Imperial Navy.

Marko Dash · Post by **Marko Dash** » 2006-08-21 12:45pm

The imperial fleet would have a much greater impact on the war. I believe in one of the books it says that the moffs were holding pelleaon and the imperial fleet back, with vader back in the picture the moffs would most likely be overruled.

Death Squadron's stardestroyer don't add too much additional firepower to the remnant, they have quite a few Imp-IIs, but with the executor and the SSD the imps already have they would became more then just an out of the way force.

While the empire gets stronger the new republic gets considerably weaker, without its major heroes the government may not commit to the war at all.

With this change in power, the YV invasion might end with a new empire being formed

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-08-21 02:01pm

Marko Dash wrote:The imperial fleet would have a much greater impact on the war. I believe in one of the books it says that the moffs were holding pelleaon and the imperial fleet back, with vader back in the picture the moffs would most likely be overruled.

Death Squadron's stardestroyer don't add too much additional firepower to the remnant, they have quite a few Imp-IIs, but with the executor and the SSD the imps already have they would became more then just an out of the way force.

While the empire gets stronger the new republic gets considerably weaker, without its major heroes the government may not commit to the war at all.

With this change in power, the YV invasion might end with a new empire being formed

Not only the moffs held the empire back, Pelleaon himself wos relunctant about joining the fight.

I believe that the Death Squadron would have pretty much whiped out the Preatorite Vong in no time... The NR forces held them back with nothing but 1 Star Destroyer and 4 Corvettes, at least for some time. Consider what 11 SD's and an SSD would have done?

I don't see however how these few ships would have an impact on the whole war? And why would this weaken the NR?

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-08-21 07:26pm

The Death Squadron kicks the crap out of the Preatorite Vong. The New Repiublic goes crazy over the fact that Vader is back, far more then the fact that the Vong are invading the Galaxy.

Vader after assesing the situation will probably decide to go to the Empire and stake his claim to rule it. If he does, he gets killed, simple as that. The Empire followed Sidious/Palpitine because he legitimently got to Supreme Chancellor then Emperor. They followed Vaders orders because Palpitine told everyone to, but we can see in the hand of Thrawn duology, a lot of the commanders of the IR have nothing but contempt for Palpitine and the Sith.

In the NJO time period, the Empire would bring in Ysalamari and tell Vader to go fuck himself, kill him, then take the fleet assets for a modest boost in force. Executor herself helping bring some prestige back more then anything else.

If Vader decides to run to Courscant and demand the surrender of the New Republic, the New Repliblc screams for a few minuites wondering what idiot was stupid enough to clone Darth Vader, then the planatery defense forces blow them out of the sky.

If Luke and Vader meet, Luke will try to save him from the Dark side again, but with Lukes vastly superior experience, power and skill, he really holds all the cards in a duel.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-08-21 07:32pm

Lex wrote:
Marko Dash wrote:The imperial fleet would have a much greater impact on the war. I believe in one of the books it says that the moffs were holding pelleaon and the imperial fleet back, with vader back in the picture the moffs would most likely be overruled.

Death Squadron's stardestroyer don't add too much additional firepower to the remnant, they have quite a few Imp-IIs, but with the executor and the SSD the imps already have they would became more then just an out of the way force.

While the empire gets stronger the new republic gets considerably weaker, without its major heroes the government may not commit to the war at all.

With this change in power, the YV invasion might end with a new empire being formed
Not only the moffs held the empire back, Pelleaon himself wos relunctant about joining the fight.

I believe that the Death Squadron would have pretty much whiped out the Preatorite Vong in no time... The NR forces held them back with nothing but 1 Star Destroyer and 4 Corvettes, at least for some time. Consider what 11 SD's and an SSD would have done?

Death Squadron was over 400 ships guy.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-08-22 04:35am

Ender wrote:
Lex wrote:
Marko Dash wrote:The imperial fleet would have a much greater impact on the war. I believe in one of the books it says that the moffs were holding pelleaon and the imperial fleet back, with vader back in the picture the moffs would most likely be overruled.

Death Squadron's stardestroyer don't add too much additional firepower to the remnant, they have quite a few Imp-IIs, but with the executor and the SSD the imps already have they would became more then just an out of the way force.

While the empire gets stronger the new republic gets considerably weaker, without its major heroes the government may not commit to the war at all.

With this change in power, the YV invasion might end with a new empire being formed
Not only the moffs held the empire back, Pelleaon himself wos relunctant about joining the fight.

I believe that the Death Squadron would have pretty much whiped out the Preatorite Vong in no time... The NR forces held them back with nothing but 1 Star Destroyer and 4 Corvettes, at least for some time. Consider what 11 SD's and an SSD would have done?
Death Squadron was over 400 ships guy.

Huh? My mistake then... but what ships was it composed off?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-08-22 09:39am

Death Squadron was over 400 ships guy.

Since when? Last I heard Death Squadron was Vader's personal detachment, composed of Executor and five Star Destroyers, as seen in ESB.

400 ships is more than the Empire brought to Endor.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-08-22 01:09pm

Wookiepedia has this to say:

While labeled as a squadron, Death Squadron was more likely an enlarged fleet. Since superiority fleets were defined as fleets containing "six Star Destroyers and an average of 390 other combat starships" and Death Squadron was referred to as "an unprecedentedly huge fleet," this indicated that Death Squadron was more powerful than any normal superiority fleet.

There were at least twenty starship commanders in Death Squadron, each bearing the rank of Captain, although no information is available on what starships they may have commanded beyond the known Star Destroyers.

It may be the case that Death Squadron wasn't deployed together as a task force very often, and the fleet we see on screen in TESB is the core command unit, with the Endor fleet being those units of Death Squadron which could be redeployed to Endor.

OmegaRed · Post by **OmegaRed** » 2006-08-22 01:10pm

Anguirus wrote:
Death Squadron was over 400 ships guy.
Since when? Last I heard Death Squadron was Vader's personal detachment, composed of Executor and five Star Destroyers, as seen in ESB.

400 ships is more than the Empire brought to Endor.

I thought there more than 400 ships at Endor. I always thought the entire Modell Sector Fleet was present.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-08-23 05:34am

The order of battle for the Imperial fleet at Endor goes something like this:

1 Executor class Star Dreadnaught
1 Imperial Communications Ship, unknown class, similar in size to an Allegiance class vessel
At least 1 Tector class Star Destroyer
Approximately 40 Imperator class Star Destroyers

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-08-23 09:26am

Chris OFarrell wrote:In the NJO time period, the Empire would bring in Ysalamari and tell Vader to go fuck himself, kill him,

They have huge stockpiles of them on standby? Because if Vader was making a play for being Emperor, I suspect he'd just massacre the entire Imperial leadership if they didn't bow to his request. And that's assuming he doesn't feel the Yalismiri coming, and just fire off debris at bullet speeds at the damn things from outside their sphere of influence.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-08-23 01:47pm

What's the canon source for Death Squadron being an "unprecedentedly huge fleet"? Because that's the only quote that argues against Death Squadron bing six ships.

(Which, incidentally, sounds about right for a "squadron." Imagine that.)

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-08-23 05:57pm

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Squadron

Sources are at the bottom of the page. I had similarly presumed a smaller size for DS, but then again I always like to get away from the 'lolz Empire has only teh star destroyerz' crap.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-08-23 06:41pm

Anguirus wrote:What's the canon source for Death Squadron being an "unprecedentedly huge fleet"? Because that's the only quote that argues against Death Squadron bing six ships.

The Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, Second Edition. And no, its not. To quote Publis

The most prominent of these forces, Lord Vader's Death Squadron, was featured in The Empire Strikes Back, a roving counterinsurgency task force including five Imperial Star Destroyers and a Super Star Destroyer, while the novelization describes "smaller fighter ships," "smaller warships," and to "twenty Imperial battleship commanders" (of whom Captain Lorth Needa, Commanding Officer, HIMS Avenger, is one); "Payback: The Tale of Dengar" mentions "attack frigates, TIE fighters, and personnel carriers." In "A World to Conquer," Rear Admiral (Retired) Michael Unther mentions the presence of a Victory Star Destroyer at DEATHRON's blockade operation at Hoth VI in his guest lecture to a Fleet Tactics 241 class at Duluur Sector Naval Academy. The name "Death Squadron" is misleading; the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition, defines a battle squadron as any squadron including an Imperial Star Destroyer, while it further defines a superiority fleet as a fleet containing "six Star Destroyers and an average of 390 other combat starships."

It is significantly more then 7 fucking ships.

(Which, incidentally, sounds about right for a "squadron." Imagine that.)

Well gosh, I guess we should go by what "sounds right" as oppossed to what it fucking is then.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2006-08-23 09:19pm

Well I see five fucking Star Destroyers in ESB and they say that it's called Death Squadron. Where are these hundreds of other warships? Off-screen just behind the Executor? Give me a break, it's quite obvious that Death Squadron only has 5 ISDs and the Executor. Even at fucking Endor, you know, the Emperor's all-important trap, we don't see anything more than about 33-40 ISDs, and this is supposedly adding the Moddel Sector Fleet's compliment of Star Destroyers, which would equal 24. Adding all the Star Destroyers belonging to the personal flotillas of the Grand Admirals present at Endor, this fits nicely with Death Squadron comprising of only half a dozen warships.

EDIT: As a quick addition, anything in the novelization that describes numerous smaller vessels moving around the Star Destroyers is directly contradicted by movie visuals and should thus be ignored. The infamous "twenty battleship commanders" quote should also be bunk, since at the moment the ISD is hit by the asteroid and Vader is holding his holoconference, we see three captains.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-23 09:44pm

Movie visuals show that ships that are outside the FoV of said visuals aren't there? DO explain how that works.
The novelization says those ships are there. The movie does NOT contradict this.