'White Pride'

Post by **Cairber** » 2006-08-23 06:54pm

On another board I frequent, which is primarily about parenting, there is also a debate section and a thread came up about the phrase 'white pride.' A poster was arguing that the connotation of racism that comes with saying 'white pride' is unjust and that she should get to be proud of being white if blacks can have 'black pride' and asians can have 'asian pride.'

I posted my feelings on the issue, mainly, that I feel the phrase connotates white supremacy and hate towards groups like jews and homosexuals (amongst many others).

I was surprised that so many other posters found what I had to say to be reverse discrimination, and that the fact that whites cannot claim 'pride' is racist.

I gave up arguing with them because the whole thing was just stupid, but I had to wonder about how I was amongst the only 3 people out of about 30 to see the problem with the phrase...what does everyone here think?

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-08-23 07:07pm

In principle, there is no reason why there cannot be "white pride" if there is "black pride" and "asian pride". However, historically, white pride type movements have been associated with racism: this is probably because whites dominate the mainstream, and any explicitly white pride movement is liable to be somewhat radical and exclusionist.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-08-23 07:14pm

It is racist to insist that "white pride" is unnaceptable while "black pride" is. However, it is not racist to point-out that the whole concept of "[insert race here] pride" is a stupid concept to begin with. I can understand national pride to a degree, and I have a good understanding of cultural pride, but racial pride is just silly.

Let us consider a guy I know. He is, racially speaking, hispanic. He was born and raised in the United States as an American by parents who had immigrated here from Cuba, and integrated themselves into the culture. He is, nationally and culturally speaking, an American. He is also hispanic, but there is absolutely no reason to feel proud of this accident of birth. The only way his hispanic heritage affects him is that he speaks Spanish. It can be convinient, but there a lot of Americans with no hispanic blood in them who also speak Spanish. Aside from knowing the language, he has little in common with the average Cuban, let alone such a diverse group as hispanics in general.

In more concise terms, one can feel proud of one's country and culture because to a degree, they are a choice. I'm proud of my choice to have some values and customs from Venezuela, as well as values and customs adopted from the United States. Meanwhile, race is a mere accident of birth, one gets no choice on the matter.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-23 07:24pm

Ethnically speaking, the contempt of the powerful for the weak and the resentment of the weak toward the powerful are both racism. However, one is more understandable than the other.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2006-08-23 07:50pm

Unfortunately, the term white pride has been used so much by outright scum that it is a tainted term.

More importantly, how many "white" people truly feel proud to be white rather than American, or Italian/German/Scottish/Irish (with or without hyphen - German-American)? Even with my being multigenerational Canadian one side (we picked the wrong side in the US rebellion), I'm not white in background, I'm Canadian or Scottish-Canadian if pressed for my ethnic background. Although I do like bagpipes, so some of the highland blood must be present to cause this insanity.

The term "white/black/etc..." pride is ridiculous for the reasons Adrian points out. Some who is from 6 generations of black Americans has almost nothing in common from someone emigrating from Ethiopia this year.

It is even worse in Asia, since "asians" are so diverse. If you somehow mix-up someone from Japan with someone from Korea or China, you could be in for some serious problems. Vietnamese, Burmese, Thai (and subgroups within those areas), all of the different groups that make up Indonesia, Malays, etc... The history in the area is amazingly diverse from groups that perpetually downtrodden to groups that are the trodders (China being a classic example since it was often the dominant military power when it wasn't involved in internal conflicts.)

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-08-23 08:08pm

Jalinth wrote:It is even worse in Asia, since "asians" are so diverse. If you somehow mix-up someone from Japan with someone from Korea or China, you could be in for some serious problems.

Quite. It is always wiser to ask rather than guess, even if you really enjoy playing ethnical Sherlock Holmes. However, it can be very touchy with asians since some people are still sore about Imperial Japan. Of course, that is not the only group where one could encounter potential problems. For example, the Pakistanis and Indians don't exactly have a history of being bestest friends. Some people might just find it amusing if one guesses wrong, but others could be insulted, and it's best to avoid such problems.

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2006-08-23 08:15pm

[quote="Jalinth"]It is even worse in Asia, since "asians" are so diverse. If you somehow mix-up someone from Japan with someone from Korea or China, you could be in for some serious problems. [quote]

Go to somewhere like Glasgow in Scotland and call a native English - believe me you will have serious problems.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2006-08-23 10:07pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:It is racist to insist that "white pride" is unnaceptable while "black pride" is. However, it is not racist to point-out that the whole concept of "[insert race here] pride" is a stupid concept to begin with. I can understand national pride to a degree, and I have a good understanding of cultural pride, but racial pride is just silly.

Unless, of course, you happen to be James Brown.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-08-23 10:16pm

The usage of the word Asian is stupid. Russians, Indians, and Chinese are all Asian, yet the term will only be applied to anyone who looks like the last option. At the very least, they could use the qualifier "East".

slebetman · Post by **slebetman** » 2006-08-23 11:06pm

wolveraptor wrote:The usage of the word Asian is stupid. Russians, Indians, and Chinese are all Asian, yet the term will only be applied to anyone who looks like the last option. At the very least, they could use the qualifier "East".

Not to mention confusing to some since across the pond "Asian" refers to people from the Indian sub-continent.

slebetman · Post by **slebetman** » 2006-08-23 11:15pm

Of course, "black pride" can be and is just as racist as "white pride". Even if one evokes more sympathy than the other. Growing up in a country where racial politics is everything I know first hand how quickly pride can turn to prejudice and prejudice to hate.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-23 11:44pm

"White pride" is about as racist a slogan/term etc. as you can get. I know, because I useto use it that way in my younger more moronic days of skinheadery. There is absolutely no cause to use the term unless you are deliberatly trying to invoke unity or solidarity among racist people, or provoke people who aren't white into a fury or violence.

Saying that the term "Black pride" is on equal footing with that is just silly. Black people use the term to try to achieve pride where there literaly was none. White people use it as a "shield" against all things not white.

By the way I am half mexican and half sicilian... go figure.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-08-23 11:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:Ethnically speaking, the contempt of the powerful for the weak and the resentment of the weak toward the powerful are both racism. However, one is more understandable than the other.

Wouldn't that fall under classism?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-08-23 11:50pm

Keep in mind the roots of black pride: the black pride movement has its roots in an era where blacks were systematically humiliated their whole lives, from birth to death. In that context, black pride means, "You're a human being, you have dignity, and you deserve to be treated as such".

It's also worth remembering that in the United States, "black" is an ethnic group as well as a race (which causes misunderstandings when recent African immigrants, who share a skin color but not a culture with African Americans, are added to the mix). Pride in ethnicity, I'd argue, isn't nearly as problematic as pride in a race, as race is mostly a meaningless social construct, but ethnicity, through the culture we inherit from our families, actually has an impact on how people see the world.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2006-08-24 12:10am

Black Pride, as RedImperator said, has different historical connotations than White Pride, Hispanic Pride, or Asian Pride. Hispanic Pride is ridiculous in any case, as Hispanics are highly diverse and nationalistic (in a positive way, usually). Hell, I personally despise Stravo (Filthy Cuban) and Illuminatus Primus (Dirty Mexican) on principle, and I'm not sure I like Venezualans, but I have too little experience with them to despise them...

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2006-08-24 01:34am

Jalinth wrote: More importantly, how many "white" people truly feel proud to be white rather than American, or Italian/German/Scottish/Irish (with or without hyphen - German-American)?

This is really the gripping hand. What other unifying characteristic of "White" culture, transcending territorial and historical differences, is there except "w'ain't niggers 'r towel heads 'r chinks. WHAAAIT PRAAAAED!"?

There's lots of room for honest appreciation of your genotype's history without using oppressor-speak.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-08-24 05:05am

They're right, it's all racism. However, we live in the real world; not some magical hypothetical universe where every ethnicity is equal in size and influence. Ergo, some forms of racism are more harmful than others. Pride in being part of a tiny, downtrodden and largely disenfranchised minority is basically just asserting your place as a human being. Pride in being a member of the most successful phenotype is tacit approval of the historical status quo.

Just examine the pool of people who generally display (minority race) pride. Contrast them with the people who most often spout a mantra similar to "white pride". Therein lies the problem. An advocate for the NAACP may be racist, but he's downright benign compared to the Imperial Wizard.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2006-08-24 05:35am

I think racial pride of any kind is kinda silly to hold as something to be proud of. It tells me what that person is, ethnicity-wise, but tells me nothing about who they are.

Wow, you are proud to be African-American. But that doesn't tell me who you are and what kind of person you are.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-08-24 07:33am

Sure it does. It tells you they're the kind of jerkoff who thinks everyone with dark skin is somehow intrinsically more connected to another individual of the same skin tone than say, a white person.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-08-24 08:01am

"White Pride" is generally a racist superiority slogan, whose underlying meaning is that White is the superior "race". This is not only historical "roots" of White Pride that taint it, but even now "White Pride" means nothing but racist superiority claiming fucktards. Black pride in historial annotation, which gives it the underlying meaning, does not claim any superiority for blacks over whites, but simply equality, and the right for the same privileges.

So there's a rasict superiority slogan vs. a call for equality of ethnos. Which one is better is obvious.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2006-08-24 09:32am

On the other hand, I have no problem with Irish, German, English, French, American, etc... Pride. Pride in one's ethicity, as said before, is generally positive.

You dirty Canadians, on the other hand...

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-08-24 10:22am

"Black Pride" may also signify a true pride that African Americans were able to overcome a lot of the social boundries that they were forced into ever since the country was founded. It could be a historical issue where they feel pride in themselves and in their ancestors that they were able to overcome those limitations, from Rosa Parks to MLK jr and everything in between. And they should be proud of those people who came before them and helped to fight for that freedom.

"White Pride" is a bit different in that it seeks to reestablish what those above did to grant freedoms. It's a term used in a vile manner, but it's roots are definately seeped in racism and hate, and basically was a response to "Black Pride" I imagine. The average white American doesn't think of themselves as "white" before being either an American, or decendants from whatever culture shipped them over here (or Native Americans if that applies). So to invent an all-inclusive "White Pride" slogan, (which in fact isn't all inclusive, as it cuts out Jews and homosexuals who might be white...what dumbasses) is idiotic.

Having said that, I wonder if Wolveraptor isn't right in some cases, particularly a youth culture who may not understand or intrisically care what their parents, grand parents, and great grandparents had to go through. A black youth (or even a white youth who hears the term) may not take it in a historical context of pride and respect for those who fought for their rights, but rather as a seperating mechansim to distinguish themselves from another ethnicity. An example being a black male is a "Brother" and a black female is a "Sister" (brotha, sista?), but other ethnicities cannot be that close.

Personally, I think it best that such terms are not used on either side. Though "Black Pride"'s right to exist is much higher than "White Pride" if push does come to shove.

slebetman · Post by **slebetman** » 2006-08-24 10:23am

But even black pride was used and indeed is being used as a racist superiority slogan by the likes of the Nation Of Islam. It is easy for pride to turn to prejudice. It starts as "but we only want equality" which implies that the other side is the cause of inequality (often rightly so) which can in turn imply that the other side is "bad" which implies that "we are better then them". It's a slippery slope. The racism of the Malays against the Chinese in my country started out that way similarly the racism of blacks against whites in Zimbabwe.

slebetman · Post by **slebetman** » 2006-08-24 10:28am

CaptJodan wrote:"Black Pride" may also signify a true pride that African Americans were able to overcome a lot of the social boundries that they were forced into ever since the country was founded. It could be a historical issue where they feel pride in themselves and in their ancestors that they were able to overcome those limitations, from Rosa Parks to MLK jr and everything in between. And they should be proud of those people who came before them and helped to fight for that freedom.

Why can't is simply be "American pride" since it takes both blacks and whites to overcome racism? Why must people insist of excluding other races when they want to be proud of the achievements of the human race?

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-08-24 10:33am

I think what makes the idea of "white pride" difficult to defend is because there was never any reason for whites to feel that they were inferior. On the other hand, though, there were efforts to degrade the status of non-whites. So after years of being told they were 'scum' or '3/5ths of a human being' there was a need for Blacks, for example, to say "whoah-- I'm Black and I'm proud of that. There is nothing wrong with that."