The worth of private school

[Lagmonster]

So recently I've developed an exceptional interest in junior and high school education, and like many families before me, I've been looking at private school options. In Ottawa, the elite rich-man's schools will run me upwards of $20,000 per year, but there are other schools hovering between $10,000 and $16,000 that seem to present peak academic training and state-of-the-art classrooms minus the sons and daughers of the lords of politics and industry.

My question is this; assuming that you *could* afford to put your child into a private school, but at the cost of making a lot of sacrifices, is it worth it? Or is the money better put into any number of other things, like retirement savings or university fund accounts or such?

[Trytostaydead]

It depends greatly on the private school versus the public school your child will have to go to.

For instance, in my district, our public school system had an exceptionally strong honors/AP program and one of the world's best high school orchestras. So a lot of rich families sent their kid to the public HS instead of the expensive private school which was also very good in its own right.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think it's worth it unless your child is having problems in school. That's a shitload of money that could be saved up for your child's eventual university education and other things. If your child needs private school for some reason, it's worth it. But if you're just doing it because you feel you have to indulge your kid by getting him "the best" of everything, I don't think that's a particularly good motivation. Especially since private schools are where the snobby spoiled rich kids almost always go, so you're not necessarily trading up in terms of the social learning environment.

[Lagmonster]

The sales pitch the schools use is their academic success record, and they parade the state-of-the-art, every-student-has-a-tablet-laptop advanced and modern learning environments, small class sizes, and heavily accredited faculty. Now, I'm the first to admit I'm a sucker for shiny things with lots of buttons and long lists of degrees (I'm male, you know), but I admit I don't know shit about whether all this equates to a better learning environment.

[Darth Wong]

The sales pitch the schools use is their academic success record, and they parade the state-of-the-art, every-student-has-a-tablet-laptop advanced and modern learning environments, small class sizes, and heavily accredited faculty. Now, I'm the first to admit I'm a sucker for shiny things with lots of buttons and long lists of degrees (I'm male, you know), but I admit I don't know shit about whether all this equates to a better learning environment.

What it does equate to is less work for you at home. To put it bluntly, public schools rely very heavily on the parents to make up for their teaching deficiencies. They hand out a lot of homework and expect parents to help kids understand concepts that they only taught in a cursory fashion in class. In a very real sense, the parents are pressed into involuntary duty as teaching aides, and that is an expectation that the schools will tend to impress upon you. That's why kids in public school can do quite well when there is strong parental involvement, especially with additional tutoring outside school which many parents pay for in lieu of far more expensive private schools, while the kids of inattentive or apathetic parents have serious trouble which will only get worse as the years go by.

In private school, you can get away with being a totally delinquent parent (at the better schools) because they try much harder to make sure that the kids grasp all the concepts at school rather than making the parents into a de facto teaching aid. You are also removed from the welfare parents and their kids, which can be no small benefit although that depends on what kind of neighbourhood you live in.

[Jalinth]

So recently I've developed an exceptional interest in junior and high school education, and like many families before me, I've been looking at private school options. In Ottawa, the elite rich-man's schools will run me upwards of $20,000 per year, but there are other schools hovering between $10,000 and $16,000 that seem to present peak academic training and state-of-the-art classrooms minus the sons and daughers of the lords of politics and industry.

What are your local schooling options? I grew up and went to high school in Nepean (now part of greater Ottawa) about 13 years ago, and at that time, the Carleton board had some extremely good high schools and I was in one of them. Produced very good graduates who went onto university (my Grade 13/OAC year produced something like 80%+ acceptance into some university), had very strong music programs (the local "arts" magnet school got killed in most music competitions by a number of public high schools. Rather funny), . And the main one or two private schools were looked at as being more for problem students from rich families.

The city did have some very good private schools, but these tended to be for the political/diplomatic set - circles most people didn't move around in or know that much about. Rather segregated to be honest.

[Metatwaddle]

I went to a private school and I feel unbelievably lucky to have done so. Most of the kids were fairy intelligent (or at least fairly motivated to succeed academically), the classes were small, and the teachers (especially in high school) were great.

But unless I end up making boatloads of money or marry someone who does the same, I think I will/would end up trying to get my hypothetical kids into the best public school in the area. In the town where I grew up, there was a charter school with a heavy emphasis on math and science. I'd be more than happy to send my kids to a place like that.

[CarsonPalmer]

As a student in a private high school (Catholic school), it seems to me to be pretty solidly better than the public schools in my area. We get laptops as well, which are a true boon, and make things a heckuva lot easier.

[Lusankya]

As many people have said, it depends on the local public schools. In general, if you live in an area where parents are likely to care about their children's education, then the public schools in the area are generally very good. There are actually some public schools in Adelaide that have waiting lists, because they're so popular. There are even some public schools which, while the student population would not (according to their background) be likely to be motivated, are considered to be quite good because of the teaching staff. On average, private schools are more likely to have a good learning environment, because most parents who send their children to private schools actually give a shit about their children's education, and this passes on to the children. Certainly there can be a few rich brats there, however private schools can expel them permanently, which is something that public schools can't do, so you don't tend to get the absolute horrors who throw chairs at the teachers.

In general, though, when you send your children to a private school, you're not buying their education, you're buying their friends.


ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

[weemadando]

Private schools in Australia are generally far and away better for the kids all-round (anyone who wants to talk about elitism in private schools should bear in mind that that kind of shit only happens in the most over-the-top of schools).

There's no way in HELL that I'm putting my kids through the publik edukashun system in Australia.

[Seggybop]

The public high schools here are pure crap. The problem isn't the quality of the education; it's that going down the hall is like a walk through the heart of the ghetto lands.

I went to a private school, and the most amazing thing about it was that no one was truly stupid. Even the most annoying jock types still had a reasonable level of intelligence. The teachers were of course all highly competent, but that should be a given.

The school I went to would have cost $14k/year, but I had a scholarship and didn't pay anything.

Whether or not spending $56k on high school is worth it or not depends on what you'd be using it for otherwise. If it's going to things like unnecessary computer upgrades, expensive food, car/gas payments, etc. then ditch those and go for the school.

[Crown]

Private schools in Australia are generally far and away better for the kids all-round (anyone who wants to talk about elitism in private schools should bear in mind that that kind of shit only happens in the most over-the-top of schools).

There's no way in HELL that I'm putting my kids through the publik edukashun system in Australia.

Considering my course consisted of the top tenth percentile of the population, I remember in first year I had most of my class convinced I was some kind of bad ass for growing up in Dandenong, and going to a public school.




Oh yeah, my spelling sucks. I know it, too lazy to do anything about it.

[weemadando]

Considering my course consisted of the top tenth percentile of the population, I remember in first year I had most of my class convinced I was some kind of bad ass for growing up in Dandenong, and going to a public school.

:lol:


Oh yeah, my spelling sucks. I know it, too lazy to do anything about it.

Indeed, there is no doubting that someone with the aptitude and commitment can do exceptionally well in a public school (and many do), but the system at the moment is going down the toilet, especially in Tassie with constant reforms of the teaching process etc...

[Stofsk]

Considering my course consisted of the top tenth percentile of the population, I remember in first year I had most of my class convinced I was some kind of bad ass for growing up in Dandenong, and going to a public school.

You grew up in Dandenong? And you went to a public school? Holy shit.

I met a guy who's training to be a teacher and I asked him this very question. He said he'd rather teach in a public school because he thinks quality education should be available for all. He then admitted he'd probably switch to private after getting burnt out.

I still go to my old high school because a couple of the teachers there are now my friends, and it's the only place I know of where I can get some fencing practice. It's a private school and a pretty good one, too. Should I find myself with kids one day I'd strongly consider putting them through that school.

[Crown]

Considering my course consisted of the top tenth percentile of the population, I remember in first year I had most of my class convinced I was some kind of bad ass for growing up in Dandenong, and going to a public school.

You grew up in Dandenong? And you went to a public school? Holy shit.

Yeah man, we carried knives and shit in our bags, and our teachers walked around with pepper spray! We're like the Compton of Melbourne!

Seriously, they believed it.

But I do remember that drug use - even in year 7's - wasn't unheard of though.

But it's alright, in Lyndale we were totally competitive with the other Dandenong high schools, so we were jockey (all our athletic teams/solo eventists went to at least regionals, and state wasn't unheard of), artsy (school plays every year - I was in them - and Rock estefed twice) and smarty (nearly every science and math competition imaginable, we kicked the shit out of the other Dandenong public schools, but usually got beated down by the private schools, they just were too many more of them than us) to the extreme as well. Funny thing is, even though I was (and I'm not bragging here) the sixth smartest kid in my year (going by ENTER scores), I was like one of the most popular kid in the school as well, so ...

*shrug*

[Lagmonster]

[Funny thing is, even though I was (and I'm not bragging here) the sixth smartest kid in my year (going by ENTER scores), I was like one of the most popular kid in the school as well, so ...

...and Crown's cock is like, man, ten inches at least.

Seriously, I'm glad to have heard so much praise for the private school system. It really does seem to be a case of "If you can afford it, do it", but it'll come down to how that money is best used. I don't plan to be a negligent father and I imagine that between my wife and myself, we're significantly qualified to deliver a well-rounded education, so public school may be easy.

It's hard, of course, to not fall into the pit of thinking that "Public schools = retards, delinquents and drug users".

[Darth Wong]

It's hard, of course, to not fall into the pit of thinking that "Public schools = retards, delinquents and drug users".

That's true in some neighbourhoods. But I doubt you live in that kind of neighbourhood.

[mr friendly guy]

To reiterate, it depends on the quality of the public school education vs private school education.

Back when I was applying for high school, the local public school (Rossmoyne Senior High) had done extremely well, beating out even some private schools. We did well when I graduated, and we still do reasonably well.

I am not sure how much of it is due to the teachers, or perhaps because the students there were already smart and were from a background which encouraged good grades. Certainly I had a physics teacher who was a nice guy, but I just struggled to understand what he was teaching in terms of sound waves etc. At one stage I felt Star Trek physics made more sense than what he was teaching.

A few other things to consider is that there are other reasons for private school students scoring such good marks, and not just because they are academically good. There have been reports that they "encourage" students not to take university entrance exams if such students are shown to be, well crap.

Moreover (at least in my year) our tertiary entrance exam mark was partly derived from how well you colleagues did as well ( as I understood it, if all your colleagues did well in non exam assignments, but if the combine mark in exams wasn't as good, it would be an indication that perhaps the teachers marked you too easily and your marks would be scaled down accordingly). This can be unfortunate especially when we have people choosing to concentrate on certain topics and ignoring ones which they just need to have done as a pre requisite for their chosen university courses, and doing poorly in other topics which you just happen to do well at.

Thus the results are skewered somewhat. Personally (if I do eventually have kids), I would send them to a public school if it had the same level of education I enjoyed.

However, these days I do worry about the state of public education in Western Australia. What with the retarded outcomes based education, the minister's declaration that we don't need to learn history as we can just "google it", consideration given to the teaching of ID, and the point that several year 9 students don't even what the holocaust was. Yes I fear for the state of public education, and I don't want us to be dumbed down like certain US states I always hear about on his BBS. As if there wasn't enough dumb adults writing their bullshit to the West Australian.

[Darth Wong]

Private school results are skewed for the same reason that Jehovah's Witnesses can claim to have a zero divorce rate: people who spoil the numbers don't stay. In the case of the JWs, they kick you out if you have a divorce. In the case of private schools, the parents of a child who is not doing well will not dutifully continue to spend more than ten thousand dollars a year to keep their kid in that school. So if the school's teachers suck at teaching kids with certain styles of learning, you'll never know it from the performance of their grads.

[Gil Hamilton]

It's hard, of course, to not fall into the pit of thinking that "Public schools = retards, delinquents and drug users".

Depends. I always went to Pittsburgh Public, and from my experience roughly only a third are "retards, delinquents, and drug users".

Seriously, it really depends. My high school Schenley High School (now an ex-school*) was heavily stratisfied and I suspect a secret government experiment in Social Darwinism.

The kids in the IS and IB programs (advanced placement, basically), got an exceptionally good education, materials and teachers. IB was particularly demanding and actually had recruiters from place like MIT and other top flight colleges (Johns Hopkins comes to mind as a school that liked our AP kids), because they considered it tough enough that the students that excelled there were as well prepared as any prep school. Plus, most of the kids there were many things, but for the most part not assholes or deliquents.

You'll also notice on the roster of IB and IS kids, most of them are white or oriental asian. You'll also notice that the schools security guards are much more likely to turn up if one of them is in trouble.

On the other hand, if you are General Education or less, or an ESL, you were screwed. I actually had a Gen Ed Earth and Space class which textbook talked about the upcoming Viking II mission to Mars. Don't expect the teachers to make up for the lack of materials, as most teachers in these classes that have been their for a while are well on their way to just not trying anymore. You might get lucky with a new teacher whose just got her cert and hasn't had her enthusiasm/pride crushed yet. Classes in the Gen Ed or High Tech magnet programs were hard to see as anything but a tax payer funded baby sitting service in order to keep the kids in there busy so they aren't on the streets during the day. Alot of their goals in life are a football scholarship, to be rappers, community college if they are ambitious or simply not being in prison/have four or five brats by the time they are 21. Suprisingly few of them succeed there.

You'll notice here that most Gen Ed kids are local blacks and latinos, with the odd Arab and white kid. The ESLs are most races, but mostly miserable, because the school put them in with the Gen Ed kids. The ESLs were tormented by the Gen Ed, who thought their lack of command of the English language made them a good target for abuse, due to the fact that often their English isn't good enough to effectively explain what was happening them while they were upset from having their ass kicked and robbed by some gangbangers. That's the thing, the security will protect the AP (white/asian) kids from the Thugs and Gangbangers, 9 times out of 10, but an Arab ESL there to learn English can't expect that. Which was kind of sick, because the gangbanger types all knew not to try and pick off the AP kids anyway unless one of the AP kids walked really far into the wrong side of the proverbial track.

There were kids inbetween, of course, who just tried to survive Gen Ed and make it out to go to a decent college. For the most part, all of them did, if they didn't fall in with the thugs and become a phonies as a survival mechanism.


(*Schenley was closed down as part of Pittsburgh Public School terminally being out of money and the School Board being incompetant asshats. They shut down alot of our schools and merged the students into the remaining ones a few years after I left. I'm very glad I got out when I did. In a sick twist of irony, we did actually have a semi-competant School Board Superintendant once, but his now in jail for being a paedophile/child molester who raped an 8 year old girl. Go figure.)

[CarsonPalmer]

The experience that the teachers I know have gained from big public schools is that you're fine if you're special ed, they'll take care of you. You're fine if you're a one of the very top students, they'll take care of you. The problem comes in if you're not at either end of the curve. Then you're lost in the shuffle.

[The Dark]

I don't know if this holds true in Canada, but standardized test results (SAT in particular) in the United States suggest private school is not worthwhile. Researchers broke down the results by peer groups, sorting students by all the crap you're supposed to give about yourself such as family income, race, gender, geographic location, primary language, et cetera. In each group, private school students scored no better than public school students, and often worse.

[PrettyBurn]

The main thing that I think private schools have going for them over public schools is not in terms of basic academics, but in terms of the resources they have available to them. For me, the main benefit of having gone to a small private school was that we had an amazing college counseling office. There was one main college counselor, a secondary, and a few other teachers who helped to write recommendations. All of them knew us personally, I had taken a class with each of them by the time I graduated, and each would have been perfectly qualified to write me a solid and personal recommendation. On top of that, basically every college I visited knew our main counselor by name. If I had gone to our local public school, which is an amazing school with a great IB program and solid academics, I would have still been one in four hundred students getting formulaic recommendations from a counselor who didn't know me.

So when you're comparing public and private schools, look beyond the grades to see what their support systems are like.

[Count Dooku]

On the other hand, if you are General Education or less, or an ESL, you were screwed. I actually had a Gen Ed Earth and Space class which textbook talked about the upcoming Viking II mission to Mars. Don't expect the teachers to make up for the lack of materials, as most teachers in these classes that have been their for a while are well on their way to just not trying anymore. You might get lucky with a new teacher whose just got her cert and hasn't had her enthusiasm/pride crushed yet. Classes in the Gen Ed or High Tech magnet programs were hard to see as anything but a tax payer funded baby sitting service in order to keep the kids in there busy so they aren't on the streets during the day. Alot of their goals in life are a football scholarship, to be rappers, community college if they are ambitious or simply not being in prison/have four or five brats by the time they are 21. Suprisingly few of them succeed there.

ESL kids were screwed where you came from? That's a shame. I live in Northern California, and by the time I was in high school, there was a staff of more than a dozen dedicated to ESL students. Albeit, it was a bit late for most of them, but at least they got something. They get classes dedicated to helping them read, write, and fluently speak english.

Beyond that, I don't know much about it.

Personally, I'm incredibly disapointed with public school in America. Not once is anyone ever forced to learn anything. Kids are passed from grade 1-9 without ever having to pass a test, or turn anything in. Even in highschool, if you fail 9th grade English, you have to take 10th grade English your next year; and your given the option to re-take the class you failed at any time...shouldn't the kid(s) re-take the class they failed BEFORE they move on!?

[Pick]

I'm very, very happy I was able to go to a private school. I can't elaborate too much, but we'll be clear that everyone I know agrees it was a critically beneficial decision.

The biggest difference is the teachers. At my old private school, the teachers were paid less, but were willing to make the sacrifice for a better teaching environment. Additionally, bad teachers were fired without the red tape of tenure.