Imps vs the whole Milky Way Galaxy

[Shrykull]

Ok, so the empire beats the Feds, the borg, etc, but what about other beings that live in the galaxy, since they want the whole of it.

I was thinking the Cytherians from the Nth Degree, and the Organians, and that Dowd from the survivors (if they tried to conquer his planet) and "God" from the Justice TNG episode, (if they tried to conquer his planet, and actually doesn't he control many stars, he wanted the colonists gone from where the enterprise left them) and god from the galactic core, there's a few planets I think the Imps couldn't take at least.

[vivftp]

Ok, so the empire beats the Feds, the borg, etc, but what about other beings that live in the galaxy, since they want the whole of it.

I was thinking the Cytherians from the Nth Degree, and the Organians, and that Dowd from the survivors (if they tried to conquer his planet) and "God" from the Justice TNG episode, (if they tried to conquer his planet, and actually doesn't he control many stars, he wanted the colonists gone from where the enterprise left them) and god from the galactic core, there's a few planets I think the Imps couldn't take at least.

We don't really have enough information on the Cytherians themselves, we really can only look at some of the modifications they made to Barclay. They're obviously more advanced than the Feds, but by how much isn't possible to answer.

Organians? I'd have to watch the TOS episode with them (I've only seen the ENT episode with them), so I can't answer that.

Douwd? Well he annihilated a spacefaring race of 50 billion people over an unknown area of space. Once again though, we can't really say what the upper limit of his power is (ie. he can kill 50 billion, could he kill 50 trillion?...). Plus I'm sure someone would ask the question of weather SW shields could block his power - something we can't really answer, AFAIK.

Edo God? It didn't actually do anything quantifiable (in a way that's meaningful to this thread) in the episode.

[Shrykull]

Ok, so the empire beats the Feds, the borg, etc, but what about other beings that live in the galaxy, since they want the whole of it.

I was thinking the Cytherians from the Nth Degree, and the Organians, and that Dowd from the survivors (if they tried to conquer his planet) and "God" from the Justice TNG episode, (if they tried to conquer his planet, and actually doesn't he control many stars, he wanted the colonists gone from where the enterprise left them) and god from the galactic core, there's a few planets I think the Imps couldn't take at least.

We don't really have enough information on the Cytherians themselves, we really can only look at some of the modifications they made to Barclay. They're obviously more advanced than the Feds, but by how much isn't possible to answer.

Organians? I'd have to watch the TOS episode with them (I've only seen the ENT episode with them), so I can't answer that.

They could probably render ISD's powerless.

Douwd? Well he annihilated a spacefaring race of 50 billion people over an unknown area of space. Once again though, we can't really say what the upper limit of his power is (ie. he can kill 50 billion, could he kill 50 trillion?...). Plus I'm sure someone would ask the question of weather SW shields could block his power - something we can't really answer, AFAIK.

Wouldn't him destroying a type 2 Civ leave evidence behind, unless he destroyed that too, ships, buildings, records, everything, and species who did know of the Husnock would see them simply disappear, but would remember them.


The edo god didn't do anything no, but we don't know what he would have done had the E-D start torpedoing the planet.

[Batman]

Organians? I'd have to watch the TOS episode with them (I've only seen the ENT episode with them), so I can't answer that.

They could probably render ISD's powerless.

And you base this assumption on-what, exactly?

Douwd? Well he annihilated a spacefaring race of 50 billion people over an unknown area of space. Once again though, we can't really say what the upper limit of his power is (ie. he can kill 50 billion, could he kill 50 trillion?...). Plus I'm sure someone would ask the question of weather SW shields could block his power - something we can't really answer, AFAIK.

Wouldn't him destroying a type 2 Civ leave evidence behind, unless he destroyed that too, ships, buildings, records, everything, and species who did know of the Husnock would see them simply disappear, but would remember them.

And who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We know he killed the Husnocks themselves. There's no evidence whatsoever for so much as a single Husnock hydrant dissapearing.

The edo god didn't do anything no, but we don't know what he would have done had the E-D start torpedoing the planet.

Exactly-we don't know.

[vivftp]

And who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We know he killed the Husnocks themselves. There's no evidence whatsoever for so much as a single Husnock hydrant dissapearing.

Well supposedly he did at least destroy the Husnock ship itself which attacked the colony, since its whereabouts are unaccounted for.

[Bounty]

And who's to say that's not exactly what happened? We know he killed the Husnocks themselves. There's no evidence whatsoever for so much as a single Husnock hydrant dissapearing.

Well supposedly he did at least destroy the Husnock ship itself which attacked the colony, since its whereabouts are unaccounted for.

Even if the ship didn't leave in the time between the attack and the Douwd's tantrum, there's still such as thing as "autopilot".

The Douwd's observed powers are nothing more then illusion and mental attacks like his mindrape of Troi. If anything, this is how he'd kill off the Husnock: fry their brains. No need for mysterious dematerialisation powers or whatever, just do whatever he did to Troi times however much is needed to kill.

[vivftp]

Even if the ship didn't leave in the time between the attack and the Douwd's tantrum, there's still such as thing as "autopilot".

The Douwd's observed powers are nothing more then illusion and mental attacks like his mindrape of Troi. If anything, this is how he'd kill off the Husnock: fry their brains. No need for mysterious dematerialisation powers or whatever, just do whatever he did to Troi times however much is needed to kill.

Considering the grief he was showing over his actions with the Husnock, I'm inclined to believe he wouldn't willingly do it again to another person for an extended period of time just because she was starting to discover his true identity - even if it were to a lesser extent.

True we don't know what exactly he did to the Husnock, but I just find it unlikely he used that particular method on them.

[Bounty]

Considering the grief he was showing over his actions with the Husnock, I'm inclined to believe he wouldn't willingly do it again to another person for an extended period of time just because she was starting to discover his true identity - even if it were to a lesser extent.

Please. You 'think' he wouldn't do it again, even though he was shown doing it and was able to stop it instantly when asked?

You equate his guilt over killing millions with giving Troi a nasty headache from which he knew she'd recover swiftly?

He says he killed millions. He can hurt people with his mind. He has shown no ability to manipulate matter, unless you count the trap near house - connect the dots, please.

[Sun Wukung]

Considering that many of the other alien races in ST are one shot wonders, it's irrevalent. There is little to prove that any of them would actually fight against the Empire. They most likely would greet the Imps as liberators and freedom fighters.

[Shrykull]

Considering that many of the other alien races in ST are one shot wonders, it's irrevalent. There is little to prove that any of them would actually fight against the Empire. They most likely would greet the Imps as liberators and freedom fighters.

Even if they want to conquer THIER territory? I think not

[Bounty]

They most likely would greet the Imps as liberators and freedom fighters.

I've got to ask: liberators from what? The thread is explicitly about beings and species that are not part of the major powers.

It's not like any of them would be better of serving a gang of stuck-up extragalactic Brits led by a quadriplegic psychopath flying around in his personal Compensator-class starship.

[Sun Wukung]

Even if they want to conquer THIER territory? I think not

You aren't seeing the bigger picture. It's not just the other alien races involved, the Federation is involved too and is one of the reasons why the other aliens will greet the Empire. Its the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in this situation. One regime replaces another.

[Bounty]

Even if they want to conquer THIER territory? I think not

You aren't seeing the bigger picture. It's not just the other alien races involved, the Federation is involved too and is one of the reasons why the other aliens will greet the Empire. Its the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in this situation. One regime replaces another.

The Federation isn involved...in a thread where the Federation specifically isn't involved...because they are the enemy, despite not having any power or control over them...and them being left alone is somehow more opressive then being ruled by the Evil Galactic Empire®.

It all makes sense now

[LadyTevar]

Considering the grief he was showing over his actions with the Husnock, I'm inclined to believe he wouldn't willingly do it again to another person for an extended period of time just because she was starting to discover his true identity - even if it were to a lesser extent.

Please. You 'think' he wouldn't do it again, even though he was shown doing it and was able to stop it instantly when asked?

You equate his guilt over killing millions with giving Troi a nasty headache from which he knew she'd recover swiftly?

He says he killed millions. He can hurt people with his mind. He has shown no ability to manipulate matter, unless you count the trap near house - connect the dots, please.

Didn't Douwd specifically state that he didn't just kill the ones on the ships... he killed ALL of them. Women, children included.

I always believed this mean he wiped the race/species from the galaxy in his grief.

[Bounty]

Considering the grief he was showing over his actions with the Husnock, I'm inclined to believe he wouldn't willingly do it again to another person for an extended period of time just because she was starting to discover his true identity - even if it were to a lesser extent.

Please. You 'think' he wouldn't do it again, even though he was shown doing it and was able to stop it instantly when asked?

You equate his guilt over killing millions with giving Troi a nasty headache from which he knew she'd recover swiftly?

He says he killed millions. He can hurt people with his mind. He has shown no ability to manipulate matter, unless you count the trap near house - connect the dots, please.

Didn't Douwd specifically state that he didn't just kill the ones on the ships... he killed ALL of them. Women, children included.

I always believed this mean he wiped the race/species from the galaxy in his grief.

You're correct. Vivftp tries to say he didn't just kill them, he also magically made their ships, planets etc. dissappear. But it's far more likely he did the same thing he did to Troi, only worse - some sort of aggressive telepathy that causes pain and eventually, death.

[SirNitram]

Ah.. The Dowd. Never has an entity been overwanked so much, save perhaps the First Ones.

I remind everyone here that when the Dowd rose again, to wipe out the colony of Rana, it did not use magic telepathy attacks. It did not obliterate them by making them disappear. I will show the relevent quote:

PICARD VO: Captain's log, Stardate 43042.3. We are cautiously entering the Delta Rana star system three days after receiving a distress call from the Federation colony on its ninth planet. The garbled transmission reported the colony under attack from an unidentified spacecraft. Our mission is one of rescue and -- if necessary -- confrontation with a hostile force.

It used a starship, or at least attacks identical in appearance and effect to a starship. We then move onto what this sort of attack might be capable of. First, the opening shot, perhaps a 'warning shot', against the E-D.

WORF: The vessel is firing jacketed streams of positrons and antiprotons, equivalent firepower of forty megawatts. Shields are holding.

WORF: Again forty megawatts. No damage.

RIKER: If that's as good as they can do, this'll be over in five minutes.

This was from within 10 kilometers. Even against the Trek ship, it was a pitiful effort, but we see later they can acheive a higher result..

WORF: Shields down! Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy!

PICARD: Damage?

WORF: Superficial -- but I am having trouble reassembling the shields!

Again from pretty damn close. They can easily ramp up to 400GW; not a token amount of firepower, even in ST. We also see it's enough to knock down the shields of the E-D. There's an odd effect of screwing with getting the shields back in the fight, but this can be chalked up to the oddities of the Dowd.

DATA: The warship is in possession of enormous energy reserves. It is capable of striking us with far more powerful bursts.

Data says this, but it's worth noting that large energy reserves do not equal the ability to shit out much bigger shots: It indicates you can keep at this all day.

400GW is not nothing, especially not with three days to casually wipe out the colony. Indeed, if the Dowd's ship/construct is capable of good speed, it could destory a Federation-grade power like this.

My theory has the appreciable advantage of using only the observed data, not inventing unseen powers which would have made sense being used against the colony of Rana.

[brianeyci]

My theory has the appreciable advantage of using only the observed data, not inventing unseen powers which would have made sense being used against the colony of Rana.

Are you saying that for the Dowd's anti-Troi power to work on the Husnock, that the Husnock would have to be telepathic, and that therefore the Husnock could have used their telepathic powers "against the colony of Rana"?

If not, we have seen the Dowd's power, work on Troi. It'd only be a matter of extending his range, and a question of whether it'd work on normals, so I don't see any reason why you favor the bigass ship goes around and kills everything over Dowd uses his power to fuck with people's brains. IMO we don't really know how the Dowd killed the Husnock, and the Husnock's defensive and offensive abilities (some Star Trek powers can take 400 GW) are undefined, so I don't think there's conclusive evidence either way.

This whole thread blows anyway, since there's no evidence of offensive or defensive capabilities of any of the so-called gods of Star Trek. How well do they take a photon torpedo. Maybe as well as god in ST:V.

Brian

[SirNitram]

My theory has the appreciable advantage of using only the observed data, not inventing unseen powers which would have made sense being used against the colony of Rana.

Are you saying that for the Dowd's anti-Troi power to work on the Husnock, that the Husnock would have to be telepathic, and that therefore the Husnock could have used their telepathic powers "against the colony of Rana"?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. But if the only observed target of his power is Troi, when there's a ship full of people he was obviously attacking, why assume it works on non-telepathics?

If not, we have seen the Dowd's power, work on Troi. It'd only be a matter of extending his range, and a question of whether it'd work on normals, so I don't see any reason why you favor the bigass ship goes around and kills everything over Dowd uses his power to fuck with people's brains. IMO we don't really know how the Dowd killed the Husnock, and the Husnock's defensive and offensive abilities (some Star Trek powers can take 400 GW) are undefined, so I don't think there's conclusive evidence either way.

I think you're being fairly looney here. Working from established power(Antimatter weaponry and a starship) will always be a superior theory to extrapolating an observed power(Anti-Troi) to include other types of targets, many more targets, and superior range.

Indeed, because we see that the Dowd attacks the colony with a starship, and not UB3R T3L3P@THY!!, it supports the idea that it simply bombards those it gets angry with with antimatter.

As for the Husnock being undefined? How about getting asswhipped by a ship with an observed 400GW antimatter particle cannon? Or do we just pretend that's unproven when we see that's the Dowd's primary attack?

[Darth Wong]

Considering the sheer number of planets in the galaxy, the idea that a galactic takeover would necessarily involve brutalizing and subjugating every single inhabited planet is absurd. There are plenty of planets which remained in the Republic and then the Empire without ever being brought under direct Imperial control, in many cases simply because they weren't valuable enough to bother seizing.

This is like assuming that if someone takes over the United States, he would necessarily knock down the door and beat up the residents of every single house in the country.

[brianeyci]

My theory has the appreciable advantage of using only the observed data, not inventing unseen powers which would have made sense being used against the colony of Rana.

Are you saying that for the Dowd's anti-Troi power to work on the Husnock, that the Husnock would have to be telepathic, and that therefore the Husnock could have used their telepathic powers "against the colony of Rana"?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. But if the only observed target of his power is Troi, when there's a ship full of people he was obviously attacking, why assume it works on non-telepathics?

That alas, is the big hole in the mindfucking theory. The only thing is Dowd was trying to scare the Feds away, not kill them all. He only mindfucked Troi because she could read his mind. The Dowd obviously held back since he could've obliterated the Enterprise-D, either by mindfucking or bigass ship, so it wasn't just an attack.

The only counter point I have to offer for this is that we don't know that the mindfucking only works on telepaths. It was targeted on a telepath, to keep her from reading Dowd's mind, and Dowd was obviously trying to use as minimal force as possible to scare Picard and friends away. Betazeds and humans can mate too.

I think you're being fairly looney here. Working from established power(Antimatter weaponry and a starship) will always be a superior theory to extrapolating an observed power(Anti-Troi) to include other types of targets, many more targets, and superior range.

Indeed, because we see that the Dowd attacks the colony with a starship, and not UB3R T3L3P@THY!!, it supports the idea that it simply bombards those it gets angry with with antimatter.

The only problem with your theory is the dialogue, IIRC, strongly implies that he believes he killed all Husnock, everywhere, all of them. If the dialogue is taken at face value, a starship flying around killing Husnock could never be sure he got every single Husnock everywhere.

As for the Husnock being undefined? How about getting asswhipped by a ship with an observed 400GW antimatter particle cannon? Or do we just pretend that's unproven when we see that's the Dowd's primary attack?

That assumes the Dowd's ship is an accurate duplicate of a Husnock ship. The real Husnock could be far more powerful or far weaker than the Dowd's.

Brian

[Noble Ire]

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. But if the only observed target of his power is Troi, when there's a ship full of people he was obviously attacking, why assume it works on non-telepathics?

IIRC, he only attacked Troi specifically because he feared that she would discover his true form with her empathic abilities, something that none of the others could do. There is no reason to believe he was attempting to drive any other member of the Enterprise's crew out of their minds, and was unable to do so.

Indeed, because we see that the Dowd attacks the colony with a starship, and not UB3R T3L3P@THY!!, it supports the idea that it simply bombards those it gets angry with with antimatter.

It may have simply been recreating the method of attack the alien originally used to add credence to his deception; all that can be inferred from that attack was that he is capable of generating an antimatter-like beam. This does not prove which method of attack the creature used to exterminate the Husnock; of course, the fact that he was able to do so in the end makes the point rather moot.

[SirNitram]

Are you saying that for the Dowd's anti-Troi power to work on the Husnock, that the Husnock would have to be telepathic, and that therefore the Husnock could have used their telepathic powers "against the colony of Rana"?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. But if the only observed target of his power is Troi, when there's a ship full of people he was obviously attacking, why assume it works on non-telepathics?

That alas, is the big hole in the mindfucking theory. The only thing is Dowd was trying to scare the Feds away, not kill them all. He only mindfucked Troi because she could read his mind. The Dowd obviously held back since he could've obliterated the Enterprise-D, either by mindfucking or bigass ship, so it wasn't just an attack.

Except he slaughtered the inhabitants of Rana, and did so in a shiplike form. He clearly wasn't attempting to scare them away. Given the effects of three days with antimatter beams, there's no reason to assume it's capable of vastly more(Save for Data's assumption, based purely on reserves).

The only counter point I have to offer for this is that we don't know that the mindfucking only works on telepaths. It was targeted on a telepath, to keep her from reading Dowd's mind, and Dowd was obviously trying to use as minimal force as possible to scare Picard and friends away. Betazeds and humans can mate too.

Appeal To Ignorance Fallacy.

I think you're being fairly looney here. Working from established power(Antimatter weaponry and a starship) will always be a superior theory to extrapolating an observed power(Anti-Troi) to include other types of targets, many more targets, and superior range.

Indeed, because we see that the Dowd attacks the colony with a starship, and not UB3R T3L3P@THY!!, it supports the idea that it simply bombards those it gets angry with with antimatter.

The only problem with your theory is the dialogue, IIRC, strongly implies that he believes he killed all Husnock, everywhere, all of them. If the dialogue is taken at face value, a starship flying around killing Husnock could never be sure he got every single Husnock everywhere.

Unless we know he's telepathic, which he must be to know Troi was in his head, unless I forget his dialogue. Indeed, he might never be sure.. Merely know that he eradicated so much of their civilization that the survivors would starve or die out. Indeed, he was acting out of anger, was he not? No reason to assume he was calmly counting the dead.

As for the Husnock being undefined? How about getting asswhipped by a ship with an observed 400GW antimatter particle cannon? Or do we just pretend that's unproven when we see that's the Dowd's primary attack?

That assumes the Dowd's ship is an accurate duplicate of a Husnock ship. The real Husnock could be far more powerful or far weaker than the Dowd's.

Brian

Yet the Dowd killed them, and the only observed power for killing non-telepaths is the ship/construct. Ergo, it's the most likely result. No reason to assume it's an accurate representation; perhaps that's what those little 'bitch slap' shots were, a replication of Husnock weaponry. He rampd it up when he realized he'd need more to scare the Feds.

IIRC, he only attacked Troi specifically because he feared that she would discover his true form with her empathic abilities, something that none of the others could do. There is no reason to believe he was attempting to drive any other member of the Enterprise's crew out of their minds, and was unable to do so.

Indeed. But there's no reason to assume he is able to target non-telepaths when he's already been hitting them with AM beams. I think pelting a ship with 'jacketed' AM is a little more fierce.

It may have simply been recreating the method of attack the alien originally used to add credence to his deception; all that can be inferred from that attack was that he is capable of generating an antimatter-like beam. This does not prove which method of attack the creature used to exterminate the Husnock; of course, the fact that he was able to do so in the end makes the point rather moot.

And without evidence of another form of attack which can collapse civilizations, we'll stick with the observed.

[Batman]

Um- it was the Husnock who eradicated the colony (including the Douwd's wife). That's what provoked the destruction of the Husnock in the first place.

[SirNitram]

Um- it was the Husnock who eradicated the colony (including the Douwd's wife). That's what provoked the destruction of the Husnock in the first place.

Hrm. I am misremembering part of the episode then. But still, the fundamental central portion remains: All we see of the Dowd's powers is the ability to manifest a starship and the capability to screw with an empath with zero metal defenses(Always annoying to me. She's a receptive empath all her life, yet never finds a way to block out attacks? Surely there's something. Even just a lead-lined helmet.)? Why assume there's more?

[brianeyci]

Except he slaughtered the inhabitants of Rana, and did so in a shiplike form. He clearly wasn't attempting to scare them away. Given the effects of three days with antimatter beams, there's no reason to assume it's capable of vastly more(Save for Data's assumption, based purely on reserves).

It has been a very long time, but I believe you are mistaken. The Husnock slaughtered the inhabitants of Rana. I will post proof from the script if you really want, but this is a major plot point of the episode, that the Husnock bombarded the planet.

The only counter point I have to offer for this is that we don't know that the mindfucking only works on telepaths. It was targeted on a telepath, to keep her from reading Dowd's mind, and Dowd was obviously trying to use as minimal force as possible to scare Picard and friends away. Betazeds and humans can mate too.

Appeal To Ignorance Fallacy.

No it's not. You are the one implicitly claiming that the mindfucking only works on telepaths when you said it was a magic mechanism.

Unless we know he's telepathic, which he must be to know Troi was in his head, unless I forget his dialogue. Indeed, he might never be sure.. Merely know that he eradicated so much of their civilization that the survivors would starve or die out. Indeed, he was acting out of anger, was he not? No reason to assume he was calmly counting the dead.

No, but when he says it, he says it's a really big deal like he killed all the Husnock anywhere, like a genocide rather than killed the Dowd. I don't remember the dialogue either but the implication I believe is quite clear... all Husnock are dead, vanished. "I didn't just kill one Husnock or a million or a billion" or something like that, so he was counting.

Yet the Dowd killed them, and the only observed power for killing non-telepaths is the ship/construct. Ergo, it's the most likely result. No reason to assume it's an accurate representation; perhaps that's what those little 'bitch slap' shots were, a replication of Husnock weaponry. He rampd it up when he realized he'd need more to scare the Feds.

The Dowd ship was not a Husnock ship but something the Dowd made up. The mechanism's unimportant. The only thing that's important is it wasn't Husnock but the Dowds, and made to look like Husnock. That's a major plot point as well.

Indeed. But there's no reason to assume he is able to target non-telepaths when he's already been hitting them with AM beams. I think pelting a ship with 'jacketed' AM is a little more fierce.

Invading somebody's mind like he did Troi's a little more fierce as you put it. As long as there's no evidence to the contrary, he can target humanoid minds, and did it to Troi because she could read his mind, not because of any targeting limitation.

And without evidence of another form of attack which can collapse civilizations, we'll stick with the observed.

It wasn't the Dowd who did it to Rana, it was the Husnock, and an attack that can collapse civilizations is mindfucking, only on a far greater magnitude. I can even provide a mechanism... since it's a transmission, it can obviously be boosted by technology.

Brian