Idiocy at the Battle of Yavin

[Counciler]

Umm.... why did the Death Star NOT launch a larger compliment of fighters when:

(1) The Rebel Fighters were obviously on approach..
(2) The Rebel's plan was discovered by Chief Bast (He could have launched [more] fighters himself.. couldnt he?)
(3) When Darth Vader went out there... Why would you send such an important figure out there into battle with only TWO escorts?!?
(4) When they realized that the Turbolasers were not working.
(5) When they were beginning the attack in the first place. Set up the backup defenses BEFORE attacking. Besides.. you knew that the DS was designed against fleets, not starfighters.

now I know that Tarkin was arrogant. I know that the Empire did "not consider a small one man fighter to be any threat". And I know that They DID send fighters out there.

But my question is why didn't one of the lower ranking officers command more fighters to be launched? If Tarkin has to approve menial defense procedures such as a TIE squadron laungh.. that could be a serious crutch on the Empires Chain of Command abord the DS.

Also... despite the fact that they did not consider the fighters to be a threat, they DID know that a TIE cannot go toe to toe with an X-Wing. So why not send out the 3:1 ratio that they commonly employ in such situations?

What are your thoughts?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

But my question is why didn't one of the lower ranking officers command more fighters to be launched? If Tarkin has to approve menial defense procedures such as a TIE squadron laungh.. that could be a serious crutch on the Empires Chain of Command abord the DS.

Tarkin could have very well issued a direct order to keep TIE Fighter response to a minimum, which would be a testament to the arrogance he had that day.

Also... despite the fact that they did not consider the fighters to be a threat, they DID know that a TIE cannot go toe to toe with an X-Wing. So why not send out the 3:1 ratio that they commonly employ in such situations?

What evidence do you have that support that assertion? As far as I can tell, TIE Fighters and X-Wings are both comparable starfighters where pilot skill and the Force are the primary factors that determines the victors.

[Vympel]

Umm.... why did the Death Star NOT launch a larger compliment of fighters when:

(1) The Rebel Fighters were obviously on approach.

Because they didn't expect the Rebels to attempt such an attack and didn't see the point. This is stated as so in the movie and is repeated in the novelization. They didn't even have the surface guns ready until just before the Rebels attacked, as they expected a defence centred around Yavin, not an offensive against the Death Star (ANH novel).

(3) When Darth Vader went out there... Why would you send such an important figure out there into battle with only TWO escorts?!?

Becuase he's the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy.

(4) When they realized that the Turbolasers were not working.

Darth Vader already gave that order.

Also... despite the fact that they did not consider the fighters to be a threat, they DID know that a TIE cannot go toe to toe with an X-Wing.

Since when is that the case? A TIE Fighter is quite a match for an X-Wing. TIEs give as good as they get- random EU overemphasis on elite Rebel squadrons versus nameless Imperial hamburgers aside.

[Lazarus]

Also... despite the fact that they did not consider the fighters to be a threat, they DID know that a TIE cannot go toe to toe with an X-Wing.

As far as I'm aware the only information that puts TIEs as being less capable starfighters than X-Wings is from the aptly named X-Wing novel series, and associated literature.

I see where you're coming from; 'arrogance' is a pretty poor explanation for this, its usually the kind of plot device used in SG-1 etc to explain why supposedly superior foes can be easily defeated. I'm sure much of the US military could be classed as 'arrogant' when engaging the inferior forces they often tackle, but that doesn't mean they cast aside tactics and procedure because they think they can easily win.

[Master of Ossus]

Umm.... why did the Death Star NOT launch a larger compliment of fighters when:

(1) The Rebel Fighters were obviously on approach..

Tarkin didn't consider the fighters a significant threat.

(2) The Rebel's plan was discovered by Chief Bast (He could have launched [more] fighters himself.. couldnt he?)

Bast was on Tarkin's staff, and Tarkin told him not to even prepare his personal ship.

(3) When Darth Vader went out there... Why would you send such an important figure out there into battle with only TWO escorts?!?

Because Vader only had command of Black Squadron during the Battle, which was the only Imperial squadron to engage the Alliance fighters (and only because Vader was commanding them and not Tarkin).

(4) When they realized that the Turbolasers were not working.

They turned the turbolasers off so as to avoid friendly fire against their own starfighters. That's why Gold Squadron began looking for Imperial fighters only after the turbolasers stopped firing.

(5) When they were beginning the attack in the first place. Set up the backup defenses BEFORE attacking. Besides.. you knew that the DS was designed against fleets, not starfighters.

The DS designers didn't consider starfighters to be a threat, and the Imperials assumed that the defense of Yavin would be centered around Yavin. This is stated in the novelization.

now I know that Tarkin was arrogant. I know that the Empire did "not consider a small one man fighter to be any threat". And I know that They DID send fighters out there.

But my question is why didn't one of the lower ranking officers command more fighters to be launched?

Vader did just that--he launched the fighters that he commanded.

If Tarkin has to approve menial defense procedures such as a TIE squadron laungh.. that could be a serious crutch on the Empires Chain of Command abord the DS.

Tarkin specifically instructed them not to prepare their own small craft. Only Vader was in a position to understand what was going on and had command of starfighters ready to launch. Remember that Tarkin was the only officer briefed by Chief Bast.

Also... despite the fact that they did not consider the fighters to be a threat, they DID know that a TIE cannot go toe to toe with an X-Wing. So why not send out the 3:1 ratio that they commonly employ in such situations?

What are your thoughts?

Since when is this true? Furthermore, Black Squadron was the only TIE squadron that Vader had command over, and it nearly wiped out the entire Rebel force by itself.

[RedImperator]

The fuckup is entirely Tarkin's. He was the only one with authority to lauch fighters, and it would have cost him nothing to do so. Black Squadron nearly wiped out the Rebel attack on its own, and it would have only taken a handful more to finish the job. There's no excuse for not acting.

[Gil Hamilton]

Plus, you get the distinct impression that Vader didn't bother to inform anyone that he was taking his fighters out ahead of time. It wasn't like the Imperial game plan called for sending Vader out with only a light escort, that was all Vader's idea.

[Counciler]

Ok, I get it now. And the TIE vs. X-Wing... I wasnt sure of that fact, but apparantly, I was wrong. I remember reading that the TIEs do not have shileds, but I do NOT remember reading that the X-Wings DO have shields. So I guess they do go toe to toe.

The fact that only ONE man has the authority to command a launch of TIE fighters aboard a 900km Battlestation with thousands of fighters at it's disposal.... that is just stupid. But the fact that he ordered them NOT to launch? WTF?!?!? What the hell kind of naval commander is he? ... Oh wait... he WASNT. He was a govorner or something, right? Grand Moff is like a regional director.. not a military rank. <--- Not sure about this)

Well props to Vader for his insight to what was happening. And btw, I had absolutely no idea that he could only command Black Squadron.

Well the fact that Tarkin directly ordered everybody to keep the fighters in the hangars, shows that was easily the biggest military blunder of the GE. But thats the point of the whole scene... isnt it?



Any other Empire fu**-ups that we know about? ... Besides those shown in the movies.

[Batman]

Ok, I get it now. And the TIE vs. X-Wing... I wasnt sure of that fact, but apparantly, I was wrong. I remember reading that the TIEs do not have shileds, but I do NOT remember reading that the X-Wings DO have shields. So I guess they do go toe to toe.

MOST TIEs don't have shields, X-Wings definitely do. As we see in ANH the shields are of limited endurance and TIEs can compensate for that with higher maneuverability.
And they DO go toe to toe in the bloody movie. If TIEs are so inferior why did Luke of all people need Wedge to save his bacon?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Some of the standard TIE Fighter models do have shields, there's at least one slow-mo video clip from ANH, when Han and Luke mount the Falcon's quad guns, that we see a number of shots being absorbed by an incoming TIE before it explodes.

I was actually Googling for it when I came across this instead, where Mike breaks down the fighters destroyed in ANH and concludes that the X-Wing is not tougher than a TIE. He also notes that there are many occaisons where shields must have come into play.

[Counciler]

Ok, I get it now. And the TIE vs. X-Wing... I wasnt sure of that fact, but apparantly, I was wrong. I remember reading that the TIEs do not have shileds, but I do NOT remember reading that the X-Wings DO have shields. So I guess they do go toe to toe.

MOST TIEs don't have shields, X-Wings definitely do. As we see in ANH the shields are of limited endurance and TIEs can compensate for that with higher maneuverability.
And they DO go toe to toe in the bloody movie. If TIEs are so inferior why did Luke of all people need Wedge to save his bacon?

And they DO go toe to toe in the bloody movie

..... I just said that. Re-read the post.

If TIEs are so inferior why did Luke of all people need Wedge to save his bacon?

Again... the post you just quoted was me telling everybody that my assumption that the TIEs were inferior was WRONG.

DARTH GARDEN GNOME: Checked out your site, reading it now. And I wondered about the MF shots not killing the TIEs... guess that explains it.

[Master of Ossus]

Ok, I get it now. And the TIE vs. X-Wing... I wasnt sure of that fact, but apparantly, I was wrong. I remember reading that the TIEs do not have shileds, but I do NOT remember reading that the X-Wings DO have shields. So I guess they do go toe to toe.

First of all, some TIE models do have shields. But it's not clear to me that the X-wings' shields are a huge advantage. TIE's in the films generally destroy X-wings with a single hit, and the X-wings only tend to survive when only glancing hits are scored (eg., Luke's engine, Wedge's damaged fighter, etc.). Shields probably do contribute to X-wing survivability, but not by nearly so much as is depicted in the games and X-wing novels in which a single Alliance starfighter can easily go head-to-head with a TIE and not worry about it.

The fact that only ONE man has the authority to command a launch of TIE fighters aboard a 900km Battlestation with thousands of fighters at it's disposal.... that is just stupid. But the fact that he ordered them NOT to launch? WTF?!?!? What the hell kind of naval commander is he? ... Oh wait... he WASNT. He was a govorner or something, right? Grand Moff is like a regional director.. not a military rank. <--- Not sure about this)

It's a government position and not a military one, yes.

Well props to Vader for his insight to what was happening. And btw, I had absolutely no idea that he could only command Black Squadron.

He may have had command over other groups, but only Black squadron engaged the Alliance fighters.

[Counciler]

He may have had command over other groups, but only Black squadron engaged the Alliance fighters.

Hmmm.... if that were true, I wonder why he only launched BS.... thats something to marinate on for a while....

[Soontir C'boath]

He may have had command over other groups, but only Black squadron engaged the Alliance fighters.

Hmmm.... if that were true, I wonder why he only launched BS.... thats something to marinate on for a while....

Remember that the only rebel fighters that were left were a Y-Wing, Wedge, and Luke. Black squadron cleaned them up nicely alone.

The better question should be, were there any other pilots of BS(not counting Vader's wingmen) left and if there were, why didn't they detect the Falcon? Edit: And for that matter even a sensor officer notifying Vader or his wingmen of the incoming Falcon on their position would've done well too.

[Darth Tanner]

I think its a much bigger issue that Tarkin expected the Death Star to be able to both destroy the rebel moon and deal with all rebel craft that were fleeing the area. He can be understood for not appreciating the threat two dozen fighters would poze against a moon but expecting the rebels not to flee (which as it happens they don't anyway) is stupid. If you were on a hidden moon armed with two dozen old fighters and realised the empire had found you then running away is obviously your first choice.

Intercepting fleeing vessels would almost certantly need the deployment of large numbers of Ties and larger patrol craft.

Oh and it always sttuck me as odd that Ties were not supposed to have shields, surely they would need them for protection from radiation, be it from space or from engine wash or weapon detonations. I know they wear full flight suites but that dosnt strike me as being much protection from radiation.

[Noble Ire]

He may have had command over other groups, but only Black squadron engaged the Alliance fighters.

Hmmm.... if that were true, I wonder why he only launched BS.... thats something to marinate on for a while....

Remember that the only rebel fighters that were left were a Y-Wing, Wedge, and Luke. Black squadron cleaned them up nicely alone.

Actually, four other X-Wings also survived the battle, and simply were not seen fleeing the Death Star because they were engaged elsewhere above its surface. Nevertheless, Black Squadron alone was able to destroy two thirds of the Rebel force.

[Counciler]

They were fighting on the surface when it blew up? Wow.... now thats courage. Course they may not have known it WAS blowing up.... But what about the radio transmission "Your all clear kid now lets blow this thing and go home!" Didn't they hear that? Wedge and Y-Wing did....

Bah.. im confusing myself, lol.

DARTH TANNER: Excellent point... Why would tarkin think that a battlestation could catch up with fleeing transports? Unless he thought his fighters could deal with the mess.... which brings us full circle back to 'Why didnt he launch them'

Wait... knowing that the transports would simply set up another colony elsewhere... he may have had some standby fleets not shown in the movies waiting for the transports on the far side of the planet. Does anybody know if there were any support fleets in the Yavin system?

[Batman]

Where do those other 4 X-Wings come from? The only ones seen IIRC in the movie are indeed Rogues 2, 5, a lone Y-Wing and the Falcon.

[Noble Ire]

They were fighting on the surface when it blew up? Wow.... now thats courage. Course they may not have known it WAS blowing up.... But what about the radio transmission "Your all clear kid now lets blow this thing and go home!" Didn't they hear that? Wedge and Y-Wing did....

You misunderstood. I meant that they were engaged against elements of Black Squadron on areas elsewhere above the Death Star during the trench run, and then fell back when Luke acknowledged that he had hit the reactor port. The pilots escaped in time.

Wait... knowing that the transports would simply set up another colony elsewhere... he may have had some standby fleets not shown in the movies waiting for the transports on the far side of the planet. Does anybody know if there were any support fleets in the Yavin system?

Evidently, the Death Star gathered a small escort force consisting of a Nebulon-B frigate and a pair of Corellian corvettes on its journey to Yavin IV. Since they were not in evidence during the battle, they were likely held in resrve to chase down any vessels that escaped the Death Star's TIE fighters and the explosion of the moon itself.

Where do those other 4 X-Wings come from? The only ones seen IIRC in the movie are indeed Rogues 2, 5, a lone Y-Wing and the Falcon.

Apparently, various X-Wing pilots from later sources have surviving the battle on their resumes, so to speak. It does make sense; IIRC, the novelization mentions a force of fighters being dispatched to fight away from the trench as a diversion, explaining their different exit vector after the battle.

[Ritterin Sophia]

He may have had command over other groups, but only Black squadron engaged the Alliance fighters.

He had control of the 501st, but they were MAINLY ground assault troops.

[Batman]

Great. Now I have to rewatch ANH to see how many fighters actually get killed on-screen.
Thanks a bunch, Couciler.

[Patrick Degan]

This subject has been hashed over before.

The only reason why the Rebels won was because Luke used the Force to guide his torpedo shot. Had he not done so, his two torpedoes would have missed just as Red Leader's missed and Yavin-D would be a ragged band of asteroids. The Rebel fighters clearly were not affecting the Death Star's progress to firing point nor reducing its offensive capability in the slightest measure. Furthermore, TIE fighters appeared on the scene before Vader launched with his two wingmen to intercept the "several fighters" which had "broken off from the main group".

[Counciler]

Hmmm... ok. Well this thread pretty much answered my question. Thanks.

[RedImperator]

This subject has been hashed over before.

The only reason why the Rebels won was because Luke used the Force to guide his torpedo shot. Had he not done so, his two torpedoes would have missed just as Red Leader's missed and Yavin-D would be a ragged band of asteroids. The Rebel fighters clearly were not affecting the Death Star's progress to firing point nor reducing its offensive capability in the slightest measure. Furthermore, TIE fighters appeared on the scene before Vader launched with his two wingmen to intercept the "several fighters" which had "broken off from the main group".

Neither Dodonna nor Bast thought it was impossible for a normal human to make that shot--Dodonna wasn't planning on having a Force sensitive pilot in his attack force, and Bast didn't know there was a Force sensitve pilot in the attack force when he warned Tarkin. It would have been trivial for Tarkin to overwhelm the incoming Rebels and make absolutely certain there was no way, Luke Skywalker or not, that the Death Star could have been harmed.

Tarkin's command came under attack. Tarkin did not deploy all the defenses available to him. Tarkin's command was destroyed, billions of Imperial personnel were killed, and the Rebellion scored a tremendous propaganda victory. How this was anything but an unforgivable fuckup on Tarkin's part is beyond me.

It's not as if nobody knew about the exhaust port--Dodonna found it in a few hours, so the Empire had to know about it as well. It's not as if nobody thought the port could be hit--Dodonna did, and even if you write off his assessment as pure desparation, Bast obviously thought the same thing. It's not as if Tarkin's attention was elsewhere--he had 30 minutes with nothing to do except watch the clock. It's not as if he didn't have more resources at his disposal--by the official sources, he had thousands of TIE fighters on hand, a hundred of which could have overwhelmed the Rebels before they got anywhere near the exhaust port, almost all of which sat parked in their hangars as the Death Star blew up around them.

[RThurmont]

Was Vader's squadron actually called Black Squadron? If so, it makes the "increase the black representation on the committee" redub from the recent Vader Sessions parody that much funnier.

At that though, aren't Imperial squadrons usually given the names of Greek letters, i.e. Alpha, Delta, Mu, Sigma, etc?