Imps vs the whole Milky Way Galaxy

[SirNitram]

Without evidence of the ability to extend his mindfucking to non-telepaths as a start, you've got nothing, Brian. We see it affect exactly one target.

[brianeyci]

Without evidence of the ability to extend his mindfucking to non-telepaths as a start, you've got nothing, Brian. We see it affect exactly one target.

You're right I have nothing. You have nothing too. We don't see the way the Dowd annihilates the Husnock, and we've got no idea of their defensive or offensive abilities. That is my point.

Although I still think you are ignoring the rebuttal, that the Dowd had good reason not to mindfuck Picard and everybody else, because invading somebody's mind is the ultimate attack and the Dowd was holding back.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Without evidence of the ability to extend his mindfucking to non-telepaths as a start, you've got nothing, Brian. We see it affect exactly one target.

You're right I have nothing. You have nothing too. We don't see the way the Dowd annihilates the Husnock, and we've got no idea of their defensive or offensive abilities. That is my point.

Lie. I have something: The method it used to attack the Enterprise. Do not lie again.

Although I still think you are ignoring the rebuttal, that the Dowd had good reason not to mindfuck Picard and everybody else, because invading somebody's mind is the ultimate attack and the Dowd was holding back.

Brian

I am not ignoring it, I am pointing out that there's no proof to support extrapolate it to civilization-crushing. I realize this whole 'I have proof for my theory and yours is built on fanboy wishing' concept is hard for you, though.

[Batman]

Actually, Nit has the .04 to 400GW particle weapon. We KNOW the Douwd can do this, and if his word is to be trusted he can SOMEHOW eradicate the entire Husnock race. We do NOT know his telepathic attacks work on anyone but Troi (@Nitram:whose mental defenses seem to indeed be noexistant, see 'Violations' and 'Man of the People').

[Darth Wong]

Without actually knowing that the Husnock were capable of, it's pretty much random guessing to extrapolate the Dowd's capabilities from his self-proclamation of having destroyed them. It is implied that they could do something like a BDZ to a planetary surface, but we don't even see that. We only see that the planet's surface is barren and we hear that the fighting went on for much longer than you'd expect if the Husnock had planet-killing power (given such a small colony, the first shot should have completely obliterated it).

[Batman]

Curses! Foiled by my slow typing once again.

[brianeyci]

Without evidence of the ability to extend his mindfucking to non-telepaths as a start, you've got nothing, Brian. We see it affect exactly one target.

You're right I have nothing. You have nothing too. We don't see the way the Dowd annihilates the Husnock, and we've got no idea of their defensive or offensive abilities. That is my point.

Lie. I have something: The method it used to attack the Enterprise. Do not lie again.

Why did you not reply to my point that the ship in orbit was not Husnock, but Dowd? We don't know how powerful the Husnock are. In fact, the Dowd ship varied in firepower IIRC when it attacked the second time around and was far more powerful. So it's not an accurate representation.

The Husnock never attacked the Enterprise-D IIRC. It was always the Dowd's ship. If they did, then I concede to you.

I am not ignoring it, I am pointing out that there's no proof to support extrapolate it to civilization-crushing. I realize this whole 'I have proof for my theory and yours is built on fanboy wishing' concept is hard for you, though.

Why do you extrapolate your one ship to civilization crushing?

Okay fine, let's give it to you. The Dowd ship was an accurate representation of Husnock. Then that would mean the Dowd could field one ship, compared to the entire Husnock fleet. Why assume the Dowd can make more than one ship, just like assuming the power works on more than just telepaths hm? I don't see why your theory is any more superior to the mindfucking.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Actually, Nit has the .04 to 400GW particle weapon. We KNOW the Douwd can do this, and if his word is to be trusted he can SOMEHOW eradicate the entire Husnock race. We do NOT know his telepathic attacks work on anyone but Troi (@Nitram:whose mental defenses seem to indeed be noexistant, see 'Violations' and 'Man of the People').

Means nothing unless we know how powerful the Husnock are (maybe they easily shrug off 400 GW), and even if you make the leap that the Dowd's ship is a Husnock ship (against a major plot point in the movie that the ship was Dowd and not Husnock), there's no proof the Dowd can field more than one of these ships (why try and scare Picard away with one ship when he can do it with a hundred?)

Brian

[Darth Wong]

How much of a civilization could the Husnock have been, if no one had any records of them? I suppose one could argue that the Dowd somehow erased them from the timeline, but if he did that, then his wife would still be alive. Alternatively, one could argue that the Dowd erased the records and memories of the Husnock from every civilization in the region, but if he had such great control over peoples' minds, why couldn't he simply manipulate the minds of the Enterprise crew to make them leave and forget they ever found him?

I suspect the Husnock were a very small civilization. Perhaps they had grown technologically advanced but were xenophobes and had no interest in expansion, hence they remained restricted to a very small area of space, hence no one noticed them. They might have attacked only those who encroached on their small area of the galaxy, hence the colony assault.

[Batman]

Err-when, pray tell, did Nit claim the phantom ship was an accurate representation of what the Husnock could do?
It shows what the Douwd is capable of. Wether it was accurate or not it exhibited that firepower, thus the Douwd can do it.

[Batman]

Actually, Nit has the .04 to 400GW particle weapon. We KNOW the Douwd can do this, and if his word is to be trusted he can SOMEHOW eradicate the entire Husnock race. We do NOT know his telepathic attacks work on anyone but Troi (@Nitram:whose mental defenses seem to indeed be noexistant, see 'Violations' and 'Man of the People').

Means nothing unless we know how powerful the Husnock are (maybe they easily shrug off 400 GW), and even if you make the leap that the Dowd's ship is a Husnock ship (against a major plot point in the movie that the ship was Dowd and not Husnock), there's no proof the Dowd can field more than one of these ships (why try and scare Picard away with one ship when he can do it with a hundred?)
Brian

Yes it means something. It means the Douwd can generate .04 to 400GW particle beams. Your assumption that Douwd telepathy works on everybody and scales up to genocide levels is supported by nothing whatsoever.
Nit has a solid firepower number that serves as a lower limit for Douwd abilities. What have you got?

[brianeyci]

Err-when, pray tell, did Nit claim the phantom ship was an accurate representation of what the Husnock could do?
It shows what the Douwd is capable of. Wether it was accurate or not it exhibited that firepower, thus the Douwd can do it.

Okay let me try this another way.

You have a versus between a Terran Battlecruiser from Starcraft and a Galaxy Class.

What do you say? That the Galaxy Class can defeat a Terran Battlecruiser based on its 40000 TW phasers?

Of course not, you say that there is not enough information to conclude anything which is what I said from my first post.

Brian

[SirNitram]

You're right I have nothing. You have nothing too. We don't see the way the Dowd annihilates the Husnock, and we've got no idea of their defensive or offensive abilities. That is my point.

Lie. I have something: The method it used to attack the Enterprise. Do not lie again.

Why did you not reply to my point that the ship in orbit was not Husnock, but Dowd? We don't know how powerful the Husnock are. In fact, the Dowd ship varied in firepower IIRC when it attacked the second time around and was far more powerful. So it's not an accurate representation.

The Husnock never attacked the Enterprise-D IIRC. It was always the Dowd's ship. If they did, then I concede to you.

I conceded that I was mistaken on the Husnock/Dowd on which is which. The Dowd, however, only ever demonstrated one power which could collapse a civilization: Antimatter blasts.

I am not ignoring it, I am pointing out that there's no proof to support extrapolate it to civilization-crushing. I realize this whole 'I have proof for my theory and yours is built on fanboy wishing' concept is hard for you, though.

Why do you extrapolate your one ship to civilization crushing?

'Cause it's not that hard for a ship capable of firing antimatter and with, and I quote, 'enormous energy reserves', to collapse a civilization. There's no extrapolation: Just taking what's observed.

Okay fine, let's give it to you. The Dowd ship was an accurate representation of Husnock. Then that would mean the Dowd could field one ship, compared to the entire Husnock fleet. Why assume the Dowd can make more than one ship, just like assuming the power works on more than just telepaths hm? I don't see why your theory is any more superior to the mindfucking.

Why this obsession that it must be identical to the Husnock? The 400GW blasts could be vastly more than the Husnock could ever generate. I suppose if you were labouring under the idea that it must be identical in EVERY WAY that this wouldn't make sense, but that's not my proposal.

[SirNitram]

Err-when, pray tell, did Nit claim the phantom ship was an accurate representation of what the Husnock could do?
It shows what the Douwd is capable of. Wether it was accurate or not it exhibited that firepower, thus the Douwd can do it.

Okay let me try this another way.

You have a versus between a Terran Battlecruiser from Starcraft and a Galaxy Class.

What do you say? That the Galaxy Class can defeat a Terran Battlecruiser based on its 40000 TW phasers?

Of course not, you say that there is not enough information to conclude anything which is what I said from my first post.

Brian

You didn't answer the question.

[brianeyci]

I suppose if you were labouring under the idea that it must be identical in EVERY WAY that this wouldn't make sense, but that's not my proposal.

Yes I was, since I did not see why you would set up your theory between an opponent with undefined abilities.

Fine, enormous energy reserves, dialogue. Then there's the dialogue with this.

KEVIN
No. You don't understand the
scope of my crime. I didn't kill
just one Husnock, or a hundred,
or a thousand -- I killed them
all. All! The mothers, the
babies, all the Husnock
everywhere!
(MORE)

STAR TREK: "The Survivors" - REV. 8/3/89 - ACT FIVE 58.

76 CONTINUED: (3)

KEVIN (Cont'd)
Are eleven thousand people worth
fifty billion? Is the love of
a woman worth the destruction of
an entire species... ? This is
the sin I tried so hard to keep
you from learning. This is why
I wanted to chase you from Rana.

Now I do not see how you could not interpret that as killing all Husnock, everywhere. Killing all Husnock everywhere takes a little more than just a very powerful ship flying around, and Trek is part fantasy anyway so I don't have a problem seeing Dowd's power.

If you are dead set for a mechanism, consider this--the Dowd did fuck with Picard and the other's brains, but on a much more subtle level.

GEORDI
(continuing)
Captain, Commander, it's back --
the house! And the trees and the
grass! It happened right in
front of us.

Now, you will say, holograms, replicators, but since when did we see Dowd use holographic technology or replicators (lots of Delta Quadrant species don't have this technology). But we do know the Dowd has telepathic abilities, so it's a better theory that he fucked with Geordi's mind.

Brian

[Batman]

Okay let me try this another way.
You have a versus between a Terran Battlecruiser from Starcraft and a Galaxy Class.
What do you say? That the Galaxy Class can defeat a Terran Battlecruiser based on its 40000 TW phasers?
Brian

As we know for a fact that the Galaxy has 40,000TW phasers and it's heavily implied the person simulating it eradicated the entire population of the Starcraft Human Commonwealth, yes.
We know the Douwd has 400GW firepower.
We presumably know he eradicated the Douwd.
Barring other evidence, (which doesn't exist) yes that means that's enough to eradicate the Husnock.

[Batman]

Um-'all Husnocks, everywhere' means all Husnocks, everwhere. It doesn't even have to mean a single one of them is off the Husnock Homeworld, and comfortably fits with all Husnocks in a single star system. Which CAN be eradicated by a single starship. The intent of that scene was obviously otherwise but if you want to support the claim a single starship with 400GW firepower couldn't have done it, the burden of evidence is on you.

[brianeyci]

You didn't answer the question.

Fine, I misread or didn't see your concession and thought you thought the Husnock ship was a Dowd ship.

You have to admit that basing it all on "enormous energy reserves" is a very big stretch though. It's not even quantified, so how can you quantify a Husnock's defenses? For all we know maybe a Husnock has enormous energy reserves as well (whatever that means). Then that would default to the mindfucking.

As we know for a fact that the Galaxy has 40,000TW phasers and it's heavily implied the person simulating it eradicated the entire population of the Starcraft Human Commonwealth, yes.
We know the Douwd has 400GW firepower.
We presumably know he eradicated the Douwd.
Barring other evidence, (which doesn't exist) yes that means that's enough to eradicate the Husnock.

That assumes he used the firepower to annihilate the Husnock, and not the mindfucking. The other evidence is there, in that Geordi, Picard, and the others saw the colony destroyed in front of their eyes then reappear. If that is not mindfucking then I don't know what it is. I do not see the hard on for a technological solution, when Trek is part fantasy and has gods like the Organians.

The only bad part about my theory is Data was there. But Data is not infalliable, and was mindfucked in TNG Masks.

The intent of that scene was obviously otherwise but if you want to support the claim a single starship with 400GW firepower couldn't have done it, the burden of evidence is on you.

I cannot prove a negative Batman. I can only ask for a definiton of the Husnock's abilities. Right now it's based on the shaky Data dialogue of "enormous energy reserves."

Brian

[Patrick Degan]

To return to the actual topic at hand:

The only reason Organia was strategically important to the Federation and the Klingons was due to their dependence upon star-hopping strategies to control key sectors and open invasion routes. The Empire's speed-advantage with hyperdrive negates this entirely. There is no reason the Empire would take any remote interest in Organia, nor for the Organians to really care whether the Federation and the Klingons are getting stomped or not. Their non-intervention in all subsequent wars demonstrates that the Organians have no real interest in playing the galactic police game.

The Cytherians have only manifested some sort of technology-based stargate capability to bring people to their world. The fact that they've never bothered to leave their own planet indicates a possible lack in significant military technologies. In any case, it's hard to see what Cytheria could really offer the Empire to make it worth an expeditionary force deployment; likewise, there's no evidence that the Cytherians are interested in playing the galactic police game either as their total absence in the Dominion War indicates.

We don't really know if the Douwd have a planet or not, and the one we've seen, Kevin Uxbridge, only struck another race from an act of grief-driven madness. Otherwise he's shown no interests in the affairs of the galaxy either and probably would not care one jot if the Death Star was blowing apart Federation planets for target practise.

In short, the Trek superbeings appear to be a total non-factor in the political and military affairs of the galaxy, and their planets such as they are offer no particular advantages for conquest and occupation.

[SirNitram]

You didn't answer the question.

Fine, I misread or didn't see your concession and thought you thought the Husnock ship was a Dowd ship.

You have to admit that basing it all on "enormous energy reserves" is a very big stretch though. It's not even quantified, so how can you quantify a Husnock's defenses? For all we know maybe a Husnock has enormous energy reserves as well (whatever that means). Then that would default to the mindfucking.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy.

I become quite tired of pointing this out, so I will say it again.

THIS IS AN APPEAL TO IGNORANCE FALLACY. There is no data supporting your wanktastic extrapolation of mindfucking from 'Hurt Troi' to 'SLAUGHTER CIVILIZATION'.

[SirNitram]

Now I do not see how you could not interpret that as killing all Husnock, everywhere. Killing all Husnock everywhere takes a little more than just a very powerful ship flying around, and Trek is part fantasy anyway so I don't have a problem seeing Dowd's power.

He generates a fucking starship on a whim in my theory; that's plenty of fucking power. I merely work within logical and evidence, you insipid little wanker.

Of course, you labour under the typical stupidity of assuming all dialogue must be error-free. That he must be omniscient. Prove it or shut up.

If you are dead set for a mechanism, consider this--the Dowd did fuck with Picard and the other's brains, but on a much more subtle level.

Now, you will say, holograms, replicators, but since when did we see Dowd use holographic technology or replicators (lots of Delta Quadrant species don't have this technology). But we do know the Dowd has telepathic abilities, so it's a better theory that he fucked with Geordi's mind.

Brian

No, I will say: Illusion. Or manifesting them like he did the ship.

So go the fuck away until you have evidence supporting any of your claims. You are committing the textbook fallacies of this wank-out: Pretend he's omniscient(HE COULD NEVER MISS A SINGLE HUSNOCK!), pretend that the observed is undefined, and the undefined is observed(Your kookoo idea that his telepathic slaughter is a good theory), and finally, stamp your feet and try and whine that I declare everything holograms, by dredging up past debates.

[brianeyci]

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy.

I become quite tired of pointing this out, so I will say it again.

THIS IS AN APPEAL TO IGNORANCE FALLACY. There is no data supporting your wanktastic extrapolation of mindfucking from 'Hurt Troi' to 'SLAUGHTER CIVILIZATION'.

Fine, you made me redownload the TNG scripts. You wanted proof of mindfucking of someone other than Troi? You have it with the little Geordi dialogue snippet. It's not an appeal to ignorance to point out that your "enormous energy reserves" is an undefined quantity and therefore useless. You just know it's hyperbole SN, so I don't know why you're using it. Even if it was enormous, it'd have to be an order of magnitude or better for one ship to wipe out all the Dowd assuming the Husnock have many of those ships.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy.

I become quite tired of pointing this out, so I will say it again.

THIS IS AN APPEAL TO IGNORANCE FALLACY. There is no data supporting your wanktastic extrapolation of mindfucking from 'Hurt Troi' to 'SLAUGHTER CIVILIZATION'.

Fine, you made me redownload the TNG scripts. You wanted proof of mindfucking of someone other than Troi? You have it with the little Geordi dialogue snippet. It's not an appeal to ignorance to point out that your "enormous energy reserves" is an undefined quantity and therefore useless. You just know it's hyperbole SN, so I don't know why you're using it. Even if it was enormous, it'd have to be an order of magnitude or better for one ship to wipe out all the Dowd assuming the Husnock have many of those ships.

Brian

Why assume they have many, you utter dolt? They were an unknown power tucked into the Federation's colonization areas. They couldn't be large.

[Batman]

As we know for a fact that the Galaxy has 40,000TW phasers and it's heavily implied the person simulating it eradicated the entire population of the Starcraft Human Commonwealth, yes.
We know the Douwd has 400GW firepower.
We presumably know he eradicated the Douwd.
Barring other evidence, (which doesn't exist) yes that means that's enough to eradicate the Husnock.

That assumes he used the firepower to annihilate the Husnock, and not the mindfucking.

With evidence of the mindfucking being it works on Troi.

The other evidence is there, in that Geordi, Picard, and the others saw the colony destroyed in front of their eyes then reappear. If that is not mindfucking then I don't know what it is. I do not see the hard on for a technological solution, when Trek is part fantasy and has gods like the Organians.

Do you have evidence for this being able to kill an entire species? No? Then the Husnock fell to 400GW firepower.

The intent of that scene was obviously otherwise but if you want to support the claim a single starship with 400GW firepower couldn't have done it, the burden of evidence is on you.

I cannot prove a negative Batman. I can only ask for a definiton of the Husnock's abilities. Right now it's based on the shaky Data dialogue of "enormous energy reserves."

No it's not. The Husnocks ability is defined by them being anihilated by a Douwd whose best demonstrated ability is 400GW worth of firepower.

[brianeyci]

Of course, you labour under the typical stupidity of assuming all dialogue must be error-free. That he must be omniscient. Prove it or shut up.

That is funny coming from you, since your entire argument relies on the "enormous energy reserves" coming from Data.

Anyway I concede, since I do not much care whether the Dowd can or cannot kill the Husnock with mindfucking or a ship flying around.

But maybe you should watch the episode (since you made a mistake earlier about the Dowd killing the colony I assume it's been a long time) and tell me honestly with a straight face that he flew around with a ship killing everything. I think this is just a difference in debating style. It is very obvious to me with no ambiguity in intent that the Dowd are supposed to have killed the beings with some magic power, and not their ship flying around.

Brian