Imps vs the whole Milky Way Galaxy

[SirNitram]

Of course, you labour under the typical stupidity of assuming all dialogue must be error-free. That he must be omniscient. Prove it or shut up.

That is funny coming from you, since your entire argument relies on the "enormous energy reserves" coming from Data.

No, it doesn't, you pathetic cretin. It relies on the fact we see how the Dowd can attack.

Anyway I concede, since I do not much care whether the Dowd can or cannot kill the Husnock with mindfucking or a ship flying around.

Sure. That's why you spent the last page regurgitating the lies of a dozen Trektards before you.

But maybe you should watch the episode (since you made a mistake earlier about the Dowd killing the colony I assume it's been a long time) and tell me honestly with a straight face that he flew around with a ship killing everything. I think this is just a difference in debating style. It is very obvious to me with no ambiguity in intent that the Dowd are supposed to have killed the beings with some magic power, and not their ship flying around.

Brian

Of course it is. You've decided what you want, and you are therefore ironclad. I came in with only the evidence, and then assembled a theory that fits that. But please. Pretend that declaring you know the author's intent, and then that author's intent is a viable 'debating style'. It's amusing.

[Batman]

Brian you're arguing writer's intent. By now you should KNOW how people on this board feel about writer's intent.

[brianeyci]

Sure. That's why you spent the last page regurgitating the lies of a dozen Trektards before you.

Maybe so, but maybe I just had an hour to kill. Maybe I don't really care since I don't see conclusive evidence either way, as I said in my first post, and was just trying to understand how you came up with the badass ship theory.

Anyway you win SN, and are obviously a better debater. As for me coming in with preconceptions, yes, but the preconception was based on us not seeing any visual evidence of the Husnock's extermination.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Sure. That's why you spent the last page regurgitating the lies of a dozen Trektards before you.

Maybe so, but maybe I just had an hour to kill. Maybe I don't really care since I don't see conclusive evidence either way, as I said in my first post, and was just trying to understand how you came up with the badass ship theory.

Well of course you don't see conclusive evidence: You hate the conclusion the onscreen, undeniable, conclusive evidence shows. Ergo you blot it out.

Anyway you win SN, and are obviously a better debater. As for me coming in with preconceptions, yes, but the preconception was based on us not seeing any visual evidence of the Husnock's extermination.

Brian

So you magic'd up a more powerful solution because you wanted one. It's nothing to do with me being a 'better debator', but everything to do with coming to my conclusion from facts, not wishes.

[vivftp]

Well there's this bit which the Douwd said just before the bit brian posted earlier:

KEVIN
Yes! I saw her broken body. I
went insane! My hatred exploded
and in an instant of grief I
destroyed the Husnock!


If we're to believe he generated a ship to go around and kill 50 billion people from a spacefaring civilization, then "an instant" hardly seems like an appropriate term since such an act would doubtless take a very long time - especially if he's only using 400GW worth of firepower.

The dialogue to me seems like he just snapped and destroyed the Husnock. If this were a ship going around killing everything, we know he had the power to stop it at any time, so unless this instant of grief he spoke of was more in the area of hours or more (at least), I don't see how the dialogue fits with that interpretation.


BTW, anyone want parts of the episode to review? I can snip some sections if need be.

[SirNitram]

Well there's this bit which the Douwd said just before the bit brian posted earlier:

KEVIN
Yes! I saw her broken body. I
went insane! My hatred exploded
and in an instant of grief I
destroyed the Husnock!


If we're to believe he generated a ship to go around and kill 50 billion people from a spacefaring civilization, then "an instant" hardly seems like an appropriate term since such an act would doubtless take a very long time - especially if he's only using 400GW worth of firepower.

The dialogue to me seems like he just snapped and destroyed the Husnock. If this were a ship going around killing everything, we know he had the power to stop it at any time, so unless this instant of grief he spoke of was more in the area of hours or more (at least), I don't see how the dialogue fits with that interpretation.


BTW, anyone want parts of the episode to review? I can snip some sections if need be.

Yes, of course it suggests that to you. You want an all-power Dowd. You don't want to sit back and think; you don't want to analyze the data before us.

You want a potential explanation that even pretends Dowd is being accurate when he says 'An instant', instead of reviewing it critically? The ship was created in an 'instant'(He seemed able to wink it into existance easily enough), with orders to hunt down and lay waste to the Husnock homeworld. Once created, the events were unstoppably in motion; thus he destroyed them in an instant.

Of course, we could stop treating dialogue as fucking infallible.

[vivftp]

Yes, of course it suggests that to you. You want an all-power Dowd. You don't want to sit back and think; you don't want to analyze the data before us.

You want a potential explanation that even pretends Dowd is being accurate when he says 'An instant', instead of reviewing it critically? The ship was created in an 'instant'(He seemed able to wink it into existance easily enough), with orders to hunt down and lay waste to the Husnock homeworld. Once created, the events were unstoppably in motion; thus he destroyed them in an instant.

Of course, we could stop treating dialogue as fucking infallible.

Well aren't you a cheery ray of sunshine

When did I say I want an all-powerful Douwd? We have a bit of dialogue on the matter at hand which indicates it was a quick action (destroying the Husnock).

If he created a ship in an instant, why was it then unstoppable? He had full control over the ship attacking the Enterprise, playing chasing games and all. He even made it so the Enterprise could destroy the ship as soon as the ship destroyed the house on the planet.

You want to look at it critically, then stop ignoring pretty much the only little bit of evidence we have describing these events.

[SirNitram]

Well aren't you a cheery ray of sunshine

If your days started with a naked redhead, and ended with a naked redhead, you too could be bouncy and happy. What's sad is that you probably think I've got my panties in a bunch.

When did I say I want an all-powerful Douwd? We have a bit of dialogue on the matter at hand which indicates it was a quick action (destroying the Husnock).

No, we don't. We have emotional declarations filled with grief with no evidence to show how he could have possibly done any of this.

If he created a ship in an instant, why was it then unstoppable? He had full control over the ship attacking the Enterprise, playing chasing games and all. He even made it so the Enterprise could destroy the ship as soon as the ship destroyed the house on the planet.

A limit on how far away he can be and still have control of it, perhaps? Or is your need for his powers to be godlike too deep for you to comprehend such a thing, that he might not be able to control it perfectly from potentially lightyears away.

You want to look at it critically, then stop ignoring pretty much the only little bit of evidence we have describing these events.

Man, you idiots lie poorly. The only evidence we have is the ship/construct he can make. You pretend emotional testimony is unrefutable evidence.. Pathetic!

[vivftp]

No, we don't. We have emotional declarations filled with grief with no evidence to show how he could have possibly done any of this.

Well if you're going to cherry pick which dialogue you want to accept then why believe there were even Husnock in the first place? If the man is telling you he did it in an instant then on what authority do you so casually dismiss it? Why is that dismissable when other things aren't?

A limit on how far away he can be and still have control of it, perhaps? Or is your need for his powers to be godlike too deep for you to comprehend such a thing, that he might not be able to control it perfectly from potentially lightyears away.

I see, so he can materialize a starship with specific orders in some random system where the Husnock come from, but he can't simply tell it to stop? Riiiiiight.

Man, you idiots lie poorly. The only evidence we have is the ship/construct he can make. You pretend emotional testimony is unrefutable evidence.. Pathetic!

Once again, if you want to randomly toss out dialogue and pick and choose what you want to accept then why believe anything of his story at all? Just toss the whole bloody thing out.

So there are no Husnock
He likely killed the people on Rana

Sound absurd? Well duh, but that's the road you travel when you pick and choose what you want to hear.

[SirNitram]

No, we don't. We have emotional declarations filled with grief with no evidence to show how he could have possibly done any of this.

Well if you're going to cherry pick which dialogue you want to accept then why believe there were even Husnock in the first place? If the man is telling you he did it in an instant then on what authority do you so casually dismiss it? Why is that dismissable when other things aren't?

One is an analysis from a ship's sensors, quantifying what we see on screen. One is an emotional outburst by an unstable individual. That you can't see the difference is pitiful, but not my problem.

A limit on how far away he can be and still have control of it, perhaps? Or is your need for his powers to be godlike too deep for you to comprehend such a thing, that he might not be able to control it perfectly from potentially lightyears away.

I see, so he can materialize a starship with specific orders in some random system where the Husnock come from, but he can't simply tell it to stop? Riiiiiight.

Actually, I presumed he could materialize it above him, and give it orders, and not have FTL comms built into his brain.

But you can pretend this is ridiculous, because you prefer no-limits fallacies better. That's okay. It just proves, again, you're a troll.

Man, you idiots lie poorly. The only evidence we have is the ship/construct he can make. You pretend emotional testimony is unrefutable evidence.. Pathetic!

Once again, if you want to randomly toss out dialogue and pick and choose what you want to accept then why believe anything of his story at all? Just toss the whole bloody thing out.

Nothing random about my decision that I do not have to take his use of the word 'instantly' as literal. You openly lying about what I did? Not earning you points.

So there are no Husnock
He likely killed the people on Rana

Sound absurd? Well duh, but that's the road you travel when you pick and choose what you want to hear.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Alright, Troll. If you have nothing but fallacies, leave the thread.

[vivftp]

One is an analysis from a ship's sensors, quantifying what we see on screen. One is an emotional outburst by an unstable individual. That you can't see the difference is pitiful, but not my problem.

Everything else he said to Crusher and Picard in Trois quarters could just as easily be an emotional outburst, so why are you inclined to believe everything there and not this one bit of dialogue?

And yes, one is quantifying one thing he's done. But then again destroying an entire spacefaring species and attacking a single starship are 2 different goals, so why are you assuming the exact same methods were employed in both cases? Oh that's right, because the possibility of him being capable of something else (even if we can't quantify it) is so absurd you have to immediately toss it out the window.

Your conclusion on how he dealt with the Husnock is nothing more than guesswork - it has no solid evidence behind it. At least accept it for what it is.

Actually, I presumed he could materialize it above him, and give it orders, and not have FTL comms built into his brain.

But you can pretend this is ridiculous, because you prefer no-limits fallacies better. That's okay. It just proves, again, you're a troll.

I see, so when the ship was leading the Enterprise out of the system at warp, continuously matching its speed, how exactly did he communicate with it to get it back if there wasn't some form of FTL communication? Or did he supposedly pre-plan everything for it to eventually return assuming the Enterprise stopped giving chase?

Whew, good thing he apparently programmed it for all sorts of eventualities

Nothing random about my decision that I do not have to take his use of the word 'instantly' as literal. You openly lying about what I did? Not earning you points.

Oh no you don't have to take his word that it was instant.

So then, what are you basing your analysis off of? Yes, that's right, everything he says. So once again why is everything else he says accurate and this is not? Reason being because it clashes with your theory.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Alright, Troll. If you have nothing but fallacies, leave the thread.

I've said my piece. I don't see how your theory about how the Douwd dealt with the Husnock is anything more than guesswork. It relies on discrediting an important bit of dialogue, or at least making even more assumptions to make it work (sending the ship off and not being able to communicate with it).

If we're just going to go around in a circle, then we can end it here.

[Darth Wong]

Well there's this bit which the Douwd said just before the bit brian posted earlier:

KEVIN
Yes! I saw her broken body. I
went insane! My hatred exploded
and in an instant of grief I
destroyed the Husnock!

Since he doesn't even vaguely indicate how this was done or what "an instant of grief" means to a noncorporeal being such as him, I don't see what this proves.

If we're to believe he generated a ship to go around and kill 50 billion people from a spacefaring civilization, then "an instant" hardly seems like an appropriate term since such an act would doubtless take a very long time - especially if he's only using 400GW worth of firepower.

If you have some particular method of quantifying "an instant", then by all means, let me know.

The dialogue to me seems like he just snapped and destroyed the Husnock. If this were a ship going around killing everything, we know he had the power to stop it at any time, so unless this instant of grief he spoke of was more in the area of hours or more (at least), I don't see how the dialogue fits with that interpretation.

I wouldn't expect it to be a ship. I'd expect that if he can create a ship which is presumably a facsimile of the Husnock ship, he could probably just hurl whatever energy reserves he possesses at the Husnock homeworld. If we assume that he was being literal and we also assume "an instant" means a few minutes or seconds, it would suggest that he hit the Husnock homeworld with BDZ-level energy over that timeframe. Since the Husnock homeworld was presumably close by (the attack being most likely a reaction to perceived encroachment on their territory), for all we know a huge bolt of energy just came out of his head and flew toward the Husnock homeworld. In any case, there's no particular reason to assume he would be running around trying to save the galaxy from Imperial invaders, or that he could demonstrate any greater range and energy output than he (presumably) did against the Husnock.

[vivftp]

I wouldn't expect it to be a ship. I'd expect that if he can create a ship which is presumably a facsimile of the Husnock ship, he could probably just hurl whatever energy reserves he possesses at the Husnock homeworld. If we assume that he was being literal and we also assume "an instant" means a few minutes or seconds, it would suggest that he hit the Husnock homeworld with BDZ-level energy over that timeframe. Since the Husnock homeworld was presumably close by (the attack being most likely a reaction to perceived encroachment on their territory), for all we know a huge bolt of energy just came out of his head and flew toward the Husnock homeworld. In any case, there's no particular reason to assume he would be running around trying to save the galaxy from Imperial invaders, or that he could demonstrate any greater range and energy output than he (presumably) did against the Husnock.

I have no problem with that analysis, since it at least more closely matches the "instant of grief" bit. And I've always taken the word "instant" in this sense to mean a short period of time (as opposed to a longer one, of course).

I was mainly questioning SNs theory on how a single ship is going to go around firing 400GW and be able to kill 50 billion members of a spacefaring race in anything that could be called an "instant".

[SirNitram]

One is an analysis from a ship's sensors, quantifying what we see on screen. One is an emotional outburst by an unstable individual. That you can't see the difference is pitiful, but not my problem.

Everything else he said to Crusher and Picard in Trois quarters could just as easily be an emotional outburst, so why are you inclined to believe everything there and not this one bit of dialogue?

Quantified readouts from a sensor could 'just as easily' be an emotional outburst as the grief-induced confession?

You're fucking off your nut, kid.

And yes, one is quantifying one thing he's done. But then again destroying an entire spacefaring species and attacking a single starship are 2 different goals, so why are you assuming the exact same methods were employed in both cases? Oh that's right, because the possibility of him being capable of something else (even if we can't quantify it) is so absurd you have to immediately toss it out the window.

No, I merely analyzed evidence, found no methods save a 'Make telepath's head hurt' and 'conjure up starship'. That's called evidence. It's called analyzation. It's called honesty.

Your conclusion on how he dealt with the Husnock is nothing more than guesswork - it has no solid evidence behind it. At least accept it for what it is.

Liar. My position has evidence in that it's underlying assumptions.. The how.. are supported by the episode. Yours as supported by.. Your claims that an emotional outburst should be considered literal.

Actually, I presumed he could materialize it above him, and give it orders, and not have FTL comms built into his brain.

But you can pretend this is ridiculous, because you prefer no-limits fallacies better. That's okay. It just proves, again, you're a troll.

I see, so when the ship was leading the Enterprise out of the system at warp, continuously matching its speed, how exactly did he communicate with it to get it back if there wasn't some form of FTL communication? Or did he supposedly pre-plan everything for it to eventually return assuming the Enterprise stopped giving chase?

Presumably, if you're actually upset over xenocide(He seemed to be), you take a little more time in ordering your constructs around the second chance. Like remembering to tell it to spook the E-D.

Whew, good thing he apparently programmed it for all sorts of eventualities

You can actually try being honest anytime now. It'd work better than these pathetic attempts to condescend while being an idiot.

Nothing random about my decision that I do not have to take his use of the word 'instantly' as literal. You openly lying about what I did? Not earning you points.

Oh no you don't have to take his word that it was instant.

Oh, this shall be amusing, how you try and twist other events to support your preferred conclusion.

So then, what are you basing your analysis off of? Yes, that's right, everything he says. So once again why is everything else he says accurate and this is not? Reason being because it clashes with your theory.

Liiiiiiar. I am assuming he crushed alot of Husnock because we never see them again and he's overcome with grief. I just don't interprerate everything as literal.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Alright, Troll. If you have nothing but fallacies, leave the thread.

I've said my piece. I don't see how your theory about how the Douwd dealt with the Husnock is anything more than guesswork. It relies on discrediting an important bit of dialogue, or at least making even more assumptions to make it work (sending the ship off and not being able to communicate with it).

Of course you don't see how: You're a Grade A Trektard, who will take any scrap of dialogue that supports your pre-determined conclusion, and hold it up as infallible, regardless of the circumstances or evidence. You're a liar and a troll, and I'll be quite glad when you finally, even if only to yourself, admit this.

If we're just going to go around in a circle, then we can end it here.

Yes. We can. You can admit you're a lying, dishonest little wretch who will cling to this fallacy-encrusted theory no matter what the evidence.

[OmegaGuy]

I say they could take every race there, some of the more uber races (like the 'Gods of the Week' in TOS) might be able to resist them, but those races usually just stick to one planet or system, so they could simply avoid those systems, or sign a treaty with them, or something.

[Ted C]

I was thinking the Cytherians from the Nth Degree,

The Cytherians obviously have substantial interstellar transportation capabilities, but its limits aren't known. There's no way to determine if they have power generation, weaponry, or other technology that even matches the Federation. We've no reason to think they could fight off the Empire.

and the Organians,

Also beings of unknown limits. Stopping a Federation fleet from fighting a Klingon fleet doesn't necessarily translate into the ability to repel an invasion from an organization of the Empire's size.

and that Dowd from the survivors (if they tried to conquer his planet)

Apart from the ability to create an illusory ship capable of defeating the Enterprise, we really have no idea what the Dowd can do. We have nothing but his word that the Husnock even attacked the colony, let alone that he killed 50 billion of them with a thought.

Honestly, we don't know much at all about that episode except that the Dowd got what he appeared to want: the Enterprise left him alone on Rana IV. Seriously, why are we accepting the word of a self-confessed being of "disguises and false surroundings" at face value?

and "God" from the Justice TNG episode (if they tried to conquer his planet, and actually doesn't he control many stars, he wanted the colonists gone from where the enterprise left them),

The Edo "God" appeared to be a threat to the Enterprise, but beyond its ability to scare the pee out of Picard, we don't know what it could do.

and god from the galactic core, there's a few planets I think the Imps couldn't take at least.

The "God" from the Galactic Core appeared to die after being hit by one Federation photon torpedo and a few Klingon disruptor blasts: I don't think it's going to put up much of a fight against the Empire.

[Shrykull]

Without evidence of the ability to extend his mindfucking to non-telepaths as a start, you've got nothing, Brian. We see it affect exactly one target.

So, you will assume that it must be done telepathically even though we don't know how he killed the Husnock? All we can say is we don't know how he did it.

[SirNitram]

Without evidence of the ability to extend his mindfucking to non-telepaths as a start, you've got nothing, Brian. We see it affect exactly one target.

So, you will assume that it must be done telepathically even though we don't know how he killed the Husnock? All we can say is we don't know how he did it.

I think you misread. We have no reason to assume he attacked the Husnock telepathically. We know his main method to inflict lethal damage is 'jacketed positrons and anti-protons', AKA, an antimatter beam weapon. Ergo, my theory is that he used this. This is supported because 1) We know he can generate a ship/construct that does it, and 2) Antimatter is really nasty on densely populated planets.

[Lord Poe]

Where were all these god-like beings during the Dominion War? Where were they when V'Ger came calling? Or the Borg? What would make the Empire so unique that Q would do a spit-take when they entered the galaxy, and race to the aid of the humans?

[Shrykull]

Where were all these god-like beings during the Dominion War? Where were they when V'Ger came calling? Or the Borg? What would make the Empire so unique that Q would do a spit-take when they entered the galaxy, and race to the aid of the humans?

I didn't say anything about them helping the feds, just defending themselves, say against a fleet of ISD's and the DS when they come knocking at thier doors.

[Bounty]

I think you misread. We have no reason to assume he attacked the Husnock telepathically.

Insufficient reason to be certain, but not no reason. He has shown the ability to perform telepathic attacks, albeit non-lethal and over short range. He has himself stated that he could "destroy them with a thought" - a vague enough statement to be hyperbolic but at least clearly implying that his attack wouldn't involve replicating a ship and shooting their homeworld. And then there's the "instant of grief" quote that doesn't quite fit with a conventionl attack that would logically take hours or even days, depending on how scattered the Husnock worlds are.

I hope you can at least see why the audience would be let to believe the attack was telepathic, even if your analysis indicates a different method?

I have always been taught that the statement of an individual directly involved in the events holds more weight then the interpreted physical evidence as long as that evidence doesn't directly contradict the witness, which it doesn't.

You dismiss Uxbridge's testimony and you're not neccesarily wrong to do so, since he's hardly impartial and under great emotional stress; by doing so the reasonable conclusion is that a telepathic attack is unproven and the only displayed method of attack is his antimatter weapon.

I accept Uxbridge testimony unless it can be disproven and conclude that hsi attack was telepathic. Based on circumstantial evidence? Yes. Proveable beyond reasonable doubt? No. Useable in a debate? Hardly. I accept that. But, while flimsy, the theory is not something pulled out of thin air.

[Darth Wong]

Where were all these god-like beings during the Dominion War? Where were they when V'Ger came calling? Or the Borg? What would make the Empire so unique that Q would do a spit-take when they entered the galaxy, and race to the aid of the humans?

I didn't say anything about them helping the feds, just defending themselves, say against a fleet of ISD's and the DS when they come knocking at thier doors.

I see you chose to simply ignore my post about how preposterous it is to assume that the Imps would come and brutalize the inhabitants of every single planet in the galaxy when they did not do so even in their home galaxy.

[SirNitram]

I think you misread. We have no reason to assume he attacked the Husnock telepathically.

Insufficient reason to be certain, but not no reason. He has shown the ability to perform telepathic attacks, albeit non-lethal and over short range. He has himself stated that he could "destroy them with a thought" - a vague enough statement to be hyperbolic but at least clearly implying that his attack wouldn't involve replicating a ship and shooting their homeworld. And then there's the "instant of grief" quote that doesn't quite fit with a conventionl attack that would logically take hours or even days, depending on how scattered the Husnock worlds are.

Appeals to Ignorance and Hyperbole, all of them. We see precisely one method of lethal attack he is capable of. That is the only one supported by evidence. Period.

I hope you can at least see why the audience would be let to believe the attack was telepathic, even if your analysis indicates a different method?

I can see why you would think that: You want a mythic power behind it. The guy can incarnate a ship with apparently zero effort, and it's a match for the E-D. That's more than enough capability for anyone sane.

I have always been taught that the statement of an individual directly involved in the events holds more weight then the interpreted physical evidence as long as that evidence doesn't directly contradict the witness, which it doesn't.

Then you've been taught a load of bullshit. Individuals directly involved are prone to hypbole and exclamations of grief, like the Dowd.

You dismiss Uxbridge's testimony and you're not neccesarily wrong to do so, since he's hardly impartial and under great emotional stress; by doing so the reasonable conclusion is that a telepathic attack is unproven and the only displayed method of attack is his antimatter weapon.

Well, that's because that's what we see. That's the evidence before us. That's called logic, son.

I accept Uxbridge testimony unless it can be disproven and conclude that hsi attack was telepathic. Based on circumstantial evidence? Yes. Proveable beyond reasonable doubt? No. Useable in a debate? Hardly. I accept that. But, while flimsy, the theory is not something pulled out of thin air.

No, it's pulled out of your pre-existing wishes and desires, as opposed to logic.

[Bounty]

You want a mythic power behind it. The guy can incarnate a ship with apparently zero effort, and it's a match for the E-D. That's more than enough capability for anyone sane.

*I* am the one who wants "more capability"? You are the one who wants to give him the ability to wipe out fifty billion people of a BDZ-capable race through raw firepower. I object to this because it's *far* more then what we've seen Uxbridge do. He wasn't able to recreate more then a patch of grass around his house, he couldn't sustain his fake wife, his fake ship *at maximum power* only scorched the hull of the E-D - does that sound even remotely sufficient to kill of an entire spacefaring race in the span of a few weeks?

I do not wnat his power to be "mythic", either. Telepathy in Trek, even offensive telepathy, is a biological ability that's been understood to some extent and has quantifiable limits.

[Darth Wong]

True, I wouldn't necessarily rule out the "psionic attack" idea, although it does beg the question of why someone of such vast telepathic power couldn't simply create illusions and fool the crew into thinking they never saw a damned thing. That would seem to be a much less clumsy way of solving the problem than what he ended up doing.