Vorlons at the Battle of Endor

[beyond hope]

Luke is Vader's son though, and all of Vader's thoughts since the Battle of Yavin have been bent on finding him and turning him to the Dark Side. There's a connection there that a commando team of teeps wouldn't have. Whether teeps could conceal themselves from a Dark Lord of the Sith with psi blocks is a lot more questionable: given the already miniscule chance the Vorlons have here it's probably not worth the argument. As to the codes, I was assuming since this was a force sub that the situation would be equivalent and they would have the codes to sneak through: deep scans would be able to get that information from whoever had it.

[Ender]

Luke is Vader's son though, and all of Vader's thoughts since the Battle of Yavin have been bent on finding him and turning him to the Dark Side. There's a connection there that a commando team of teeps wouldn't have. Whether teeps could conceal themselves from a Dark Lord of the Sith with psi blocks is a lot more questionable: given the already miniscule chance the Vorlons have here it's probably not worth the argument. As to the codes, I was assuming since this was a force sub that the situation would be equivalent

Wong made a point about this on the first page thereabouts: If it is a true force sub then the Vorlons have none of the intellegence or whatever the Rebels had.

and they would have the codes to sneak through: deep scans would be able to get that information from whoever had it.

Since when does telepathy work on computers? The codes were in a computer that the bothans stole and cracked.

[Captain Kruger]

I make a motion that SyntaxVorlon should be kicked in the head.

A rude response, you say? I say that a Militant Fiver like this deserves nothing less. He twists facts and invents shit out of mid-air just to try to give his precious Vorlon Love-Gods a victory. Now I happened to dig Kosh, he was one of the coolest sci-fi characters ever, but if his race's warships don't have the firepower or endurance to take on an Imperial fleet then that's just tough shit.

200 gigatons, Syntax. That's over 300 times the firepower necessary to cripple a Shadow ship in ONE TURBOLASER BOLT. (per "Into the Fire") Dig it or fuck off. And don't give me any crap about Vorlon ships being hundreds of times tougher than their Shadow counterparts...if that were the case, they'd have just rolled over the Shadows as easily as the Minbari rolled over the Humans.

Oh, by the way, need I mention that 200 gigatons is an EXTREMELY low end figure? This is the figure for the 12 heavy guns on an Old Republic TRANSPORT SHIP. An ISD is twice the length of that vessel and is a dedicated battleship. It also only has six heavy guns to the older ship's 12 (can you say BIGGER GUNS?).

Syntax, if you don't like being treated this rudely, I suggest you learn to debate properly. At this point, you're no better than Trekkies who think the Federation could beat the Empire through the power of technobabble.

[SyntaxVorlon]

Any Transport, vorlon or tyderium, would have made it to the surface, in that case, because the weapons would have had to be so low power as to not superheat the air on firing.

I have not been inventing things, I have been using www.bab-onthe.net, go there yourself if you like. In the ep. Interludes and Examinations, the Vorlon destroyer proves itself to have the ability to put out 40k of TW.
The Shadow ship gets hit with 250000 TJ in a fraction of a second, I translated that to watts by assuming that it was a quarter second, it may have been less than that, I was using a low end for its armor.

Kruger, you can quite frankly fuck off for all I care, I have not resorted to cursing others(to now of course).

The series proves that modified telepaths can interface with computers, an energy being would be infinitely able to do this as it could simply "touch" the i/o port. You have conceded that the shield is not planet wide, thus a single transport could jump in many klicks away and, with the steath technology available to the Vorlons travel through the jungle at low altitudes, land and allow its passengers, teeps or vorlons to get into the facility, much easier for vorlons who don't have to even worry about walls in Wong's opinion. You say that the facility would be protected from transports and personnel, you forget that this is a jungle not a big field, an entire tribe of Ewoks made it close enough to the facility and set traps in the brush without so much as a thought from the guards.

What exactly was this comm ship, a full ISD or a corellian corvette? What ship is it that vorlons so obviously cannot destroy here?

If I am substituting the Vorlons for the Rebels, then they would have taken over all operations, including relations with the Bothans and other species.

If ISDs are as powerful as producing 8 million terawatts each, then the Vorlons would not be a problem at all, because vorlons are realistically less powerful than that. But really if the ISD is that powerful why not push all its power into shields and hyperspace into a star or a planet? No need for a death star at all. Thus there would be no death star 2 and the vorlons would have won by default!
-Vorlon bows-
-If your brain has not been turned to soup by this logic then feel free to start cursing and being tiresomely uncivil-

[His Divine Shadow]

Vorlon fighters are superior to imp fighters, both have zero shields, but IMPs use pulse cannons, beams beat pulse cannons in long range combat, EVERY TIME.

Nope, that just depends on how fast the bolt is going, which goes faster the farther away the target is BTW, and bolt delivers it's energies faster making it more efficient.
plus it's cooler.

[His Divine Shadow]

I have not been inventing things, I have been using www.bab-onthe.net, go there yourself if you like. In the ep. Interludes and Examinations, the Vorlon destroyer proves itself to have the ability to put out 40k of TW.

Well, 40.000TJ = 10megatons

The Shadow ship gets hit with 250000 TJ in a fraction of a second, I translated that to watts by assuming that it was a quarter second, it may have been less than that, I was using a low end for its armor.

250.000 TJ = 60megatons

What exactly was this comm ship, a full ISD or a corellian corvette? What ship is it that vorlons so obviously cannot destroy here?

If ISDs are as powerful as producing 8 million terawatts each, then the Vorlons would not be a problem at all, because vorlons are realistically less powerful than that.

ISD's aren't as realistical though, their reactors might produce something like 1e24w thats 1,000,000,000,000 TJ / second.

[Ender]

Any Transport, vorlon or tyderium, would have made it to the surface, in that case, because the weapons would have had to be so low power as to not superheat the air on firing.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I have not been inventing things, I have been using www.bab-onthe.net, go there yourself if you like.

There is no such site as www.bab-onthe.net, so I assume you mean http://www.babtech-onthe.net/
I do go there, often. The difference between the two of us is that I understand it.

In the ep. Interludes and Examinations, the Vorlon destroyer proves itself to have the ability to put out 40k of TW.
The Shadow ship gets hit with 250000 TJ in a fraction of a second, I translated that to watts by assuming that it was a quarter second, it may have been less than that, I was using a low end for its armor.

Great.
A single laser cannon on an Acclamator throws out 376200 terawatts, adjusting for the firing time for conversion. This means that an antifighter weapon on a transport 10x weaker then an ISD has more power then both of the weapons you gave combined.

The series proves that modified telepaths can interface with computers,

When.

an energy being would be infinitely able to do this as it could simply "touch" the i/o port.

If you apply eneregy to the control board, you will fry out the board but you will not shut down the shield. Plus you deliberatly ignored every point I made about this tactic.

You have conceded that the shield is not planet wide, thus a single transport could jump in many klicks away

Yes, because a giant rift in space time won't be noticed.

and, with the steath technology available to the Vorlons travel through the jungle at low altitudes,

Your stealthy approach was totally given away by your arrival.

land and allow its passengers, teeps or vorlons to get into the facility,

I want to see how these guys are going to walk through the shield.

much easier for vorlons who don't have to even worry about walls in Wong's opinion.

Wong's opinion and mine differ here then, because I want proof that the thickenss of the wall they are trying to go through does not matter.

You say that the facility would be protected from transports and personnel, you forget that this is a jungle not a big field, an entire tribe of Ewoks made it close enough to the facility and set traps in the brush without so much as a thought from the guards.

I don't think you understand this. The shield covered part of the ground (a 50 kilck radius based on the Hoth shield). The ewoks were already inside the shield, the ewoks knew how to avoid the scouts, and most importantly, the sensors were not designed to register the ewoks as threats anymore then a racoon would arouse suspision in a watch stander.

THe Vorlon's have to get down to the planet, get to the shield barrier, find a way through the shield, then cross some 50 kilometers of partoled forest and not get picked up by the sensors, break in, and disable the shields.

And remember, the Empire knows they are coming.

What exactly was this comm ship, a full ISD or a corellian corvette? What ship is it that vorlons so obviously cannot destroy here?

A modified ISD.

If I am substituting the Vorlons for the Rebels, then they would have taken over all operations, including relations with the Bothans and other species.

OK, since you are pretty much changing the setting here on a whim throughout the thread, explicitly state what the Vorlons have to work with.

If ISDs are as powerful as producing 8 million terawatts each, then the Vorlons would not be a problem at all, because vorlons are realistically less powerful than that. But really if the ISD is that powerful why not push all its power into shields and hyperspace into a star or a planet? No need for a death star at all. Thus there would be no death star 2 and the vorlons would have won by default!

You really have no concept of the power involved in things, do you?

-Vorlon bows-
-If your brain has not been turned to soup by this logic then feel free to start cursing and being tiresomely uncivil-

There was not a shred of logic in your post.

[macman]

I picked the Vorlons based on a couple of ideas.....

The Vorlons being first ones are at least as old as the Empire so I would thing they could have equal tech in general....

We saw in the Movie :In the Beginning" the effect of opening a jump point close to a group of ships..I would think that the same technique would work on the Imperials

Since we saw Vorlons moving thru space in their native form they may be able to get thru the shield

It took almost the whole output of B5 plus some help from another first one to kill a Vorlon..they are hard to kill and I think they would prove a challenge to the Imperials (especially if they were in there pure energy form....

It is possible since they were trying to guide the younger races they wew holding back on their fire power...

Now before the flames start this was why I voted for the Vorlons..I am uncertain of the relative power ratings of the Vorlons so I was looking at other factors

[His Divine Shadow]

I picked the Vorlons based on a couple of ideas.....

The Vorlons being first ones are at least as old as the Empire so I would thing they could have equal tech in general....

Well age doesn't matter and the Vorlons are WAY older, they just come from another universe with different rules.

We saw in the Movie :In the Beginning" the effect of opening a jump point close to a group of ships..I would think that the same technique would work on the Imperials

It'd work as in hitting them, I doubt it would hurt them, shields would absorb the energy burst.

Since we saw Vorlons moving thru space in their native form they may be able to get thru the shield

But how exactly? Just getting through the shield means being greeted by thousands of turbolasers.

It took almost the whole output of B5 plus some help from another first one to kill a Vorlon..they are hard to kill and I think they would prove a challenge to the Imperials (especially if they were in there pure energy form....

It wasn't the whole output, it wasn't anything near it, there's only that much energy you could have channeled through that room without blowing the station up, that much energy released into the air through electricity and onto the vorlon itself would have created a shockwave due to flash heating and blown it sky-high or something.
And JMS says Vorlons are not pure energy, the visuals would agree with that.

It is possible since they were trying to guide the younger races they wew holding back on their fire power...

They where, but nothing says there where many magnitudes of difference, it might have twice or thrice the difference going from the AoG material, also those kind of ships tooks hundreds of years to grow BTW.

[Sea Skimmer]

I picked the Vorlons based on a couple of ideas.....

The Vorlons being first ones are at least as old as the Empire so I would thing they could have equal tech in general....

That's a very stupid assumption and a groundless one. You'll be lucky if others don't flame for it.

[Ender]

I picked the Vorlons based on a couple of ideas.....

The Vorlons being first ones are at least as old as the Empire so I would thing they could have equal tech in general....

That idea doesn't hold much water. First off, their demonstrated capabilites don't match it. Secondly, Egypt is alot older then the USA, but that does not mean that they have similar military capabilities.

And incidently, the Vorlons have been in space far longer.

We saw in the Movie :In the Beginning" the effect of opening a jump point close to a group of ships..I would think that the same technique would work on the Imperials

The Bonehead technique has more energy to it then a jump point opening. Adam Warlock, a hard core fiver (talk to conner or someone for more detaisl as mudslinging is irrelevent to the post) put the Bonehead at 12 teratons of energy released. Even before you factor in the amount of actual energy from that that the ISD would get hit with it is insufficient to down the shields.

Since we saw Vorlons moving thru space in their native form they may be able to get thru the shield

The ability to hang out in a vaccuum does not translate at all.

It took almost the whole output of B5 plus some help from another first one to kill a Vorlon..they are hard to kill and I think they would prove a challenge to the Imperials (especially if they were in there pure energy form....

I really want to see one of them withstand a multi MT device like a Thermal detanator.

It is possible since they were trying to guide the younger races they wew holding back on their fire power...

Even if their real ships are 100 times more powerful, they don't match the Imperials.

Now before the flames start this was why I voted for the Vorlons..I am uncertain of the relative power ratings of the Vorlons so I was looking at other factors[/quote]

[macman]

I picked the Vorlons based on a couple of ideas.....

The Vorlons being first ones are at least as old as the Empire so I would thing they could have equal tech in general....

That's a very stupid assumption and a groundless one. You'll be lucky if others don't flame for it.

I might get flamed for it but since we don't know the full power of the Vorlons I didn't feel it was groundless.......Your dealing with creatures of pure energy which I don't remember ever seeing in Star Wars (I could be wrong) so who knows how things would turn out....

Excuse me will I go get my flame proof underwear....

[His Divine Shadow]

They are not pure energy.

[macman]

They are not pure energy.

They appeared as energy in 2 shows..one when He left his Encounter suit to rescue Sherdian and in the espiode where they killed Kosh's replacement..they certainly appeared to be energy

[beyond hope]

Luke is Vader's son though, and all of Vader's thoughts since the Battle of Yavin have been bent on finding him and turning him to the Dark Side. There's a connection there that a commando team of teeps wouldn't have. Whether teeps could conceal themselves from a Dark Lord of the Sith with psi blocks is a lot more questionable: given the already miniscule chance the Vorlons have here it's probably not worth the argument. As to the codes, I was assuming since this was a force sub that the situation would be equivalent

Wong made a point about this on the first page thereabouts: If it is a true force sub then the Vorlons have none of the intellegence or whatever the Rebels had.

and they would have the codes to sneak through: deep scans would be able to get that information from whoever had it.

Since when does telepathy work on computers? The codes were in a computer that the bothans stole and cracked.

Conceded.

[Ender]

They are not pure energy.

They appeared as energy in 2 shows..one when He left his Encounter suit to rescue Sherdian and in the espiode where they killed Kosh's replacement..they certainly appeared to be energy

There is also a physical part. This is how Kosh was poisoned (as you can't poison energy) and confirmed by JMS.

The physical part is also what makes me doubt that they can pass through any material regardless of thickness.

[macman]

They are not pure energy.

They appeared as energy in 2 shows..one when He left his Encounter suit to rescue Sherdian and in the espiode where they killed Kosh's replacement..they certainly appeared to be energy

There is also a physical part. This is how Kosh was poisoned (as you can't poison energy) and confirmed by JMS.

The physical part is also what makes me doubt that they can pass through any material regardless of thickness.

True..plus of course an energy shield is not a wall and is designed to prevent energy from passing thru..so I guess in this case the first ones finish last

[Ender]

True..plus of course an energy shield is not a wall and is designed to prevent energy from passing thru..so I guess in this case the first ones finish last

More or less. You can pass through a shield, provided you are grounded, moving slowly, and can withstand the energy. Stormie & clonetrooper armor and Droid chassis are all some kind of conductor which spreads out the energy itself and lets them pass through the heat that suppossedly results from the atmosphere's interaction (ref AOTC VD). Since Vorlons float, they aren't grounded, and the teeps don't have armor, so they are stuck on the otherside.

[Coalition]

The only way I can see the Vorlons 'winning; in this scenario, is to open jump points inside the hollow space next to the Death Star Reactor. From there, they fire every single weapon they can at the reactor, or the control tower to destroy it and make the reactor go out of control.

After that, they get to meet Lorien as their ships get vaporized when the reactor explodes, unless they can open jump points one minute part.

Other than that, the Vorlons become target practice for the Imperial fleet, and the Rebels arrive soon after, and start yelling, "We told them to wait, but did they listen, NO THEY DIDN'T!"

[consequences]

But the explosions of the Vorlon fleet might provide distractions for the Imperial crews staring at the fireworks, and give the Rebels a brief tactical advantage. This is presuming the Vorlons were a force addition, and not a force substitution.

[Ender]

The only way I can see the Vorlons 'winning; in this scenario, is to open jump points inside the hollow space next to the Death Star Reactor. From there, they fire every single weapon they can at the reactor, or the control tower to destroy it and make the reactor go out of control.

*sigh*
Provide a single sliver of proof that a jump popint can bypass shields.

Other then that we are in agreement.

[Captain Kruger]

Any Transport, vorlon or tyderium, would have made it to the surface, in that case, because the weapons would have had to be so low power as to not superheat the air on firing.

Turbolasers are plasma-type bolts contained within magnetic fields. That means the energy is contained until the magnetic field dissipates, whether through impact or through the "flak-burst" mode we saw in Ep 5. There has never been any evidence that any of the bolt's energy leaks through the magnetic field as it travels and that's the only way it would superheat the air. I invite you to show either canon or uncontradicted offical evidence to the contrary.

In the ep. Interludes and Examinations, the Vorlon destroyer proves itself to have the ability to put out 40k of TW.

And you came to this conclusion how? I notice you don't offer one shred of evidence. Also, you haven't specified if you're talking about the overall power output of the ship or that of its main gun. Until you say otherwise, I'll be generous and assume you're talking about the main gun.

These are the ways you can prove your statement for a Vorlon destroyer's 40-petawatt power output:

1. It was said on the show that it was 40 petawatts.
2. It was said on the show that a similar-sized vessel of a race with a similar level of technology put out 40 petawatts. (This method is still open to debate as similar technology does not always mean exact same power generation methods.)
3. You go the Mike Wong route. In other words, show that when the Vorlon ship's main gun was used, the resulting damage/destruction proves, via the scientific method, that the MINIMUM amount of energy required for the results was 40 petawatts.

In any event, going through these motions wouldn't help your argument a bit. A 1-kiloton bomb releases 4.186 terajoules of energy. That means that when one of those 200-gigaton turbolaser bolts hits you, that's 837,200 petajoules in your face. How long would it take the aforementioned Vorlon weapon to deliver that much juice? 5 HOURS AND 48 MINUTES!!!! Just shy of 6 hours of constant bombardment on the same spot of the same target to equal the energy of one TL bolt from a Clone War-era TRANSPORT SHIP! That is far beyond pathetic. A WW1 Sopwith Camel would likely have a better chance against a modern combat aircraft.

I have not been inventing things, I have been using www.bab-onthe.net, go there yourself if you like.

Been there, done that. News flash: Babtech on the Net is NOT canon. The TV show is. And the TV show demonstrates a Shadow vessel getting its ass kicked by PART of a shockwave of a bomb that is 0.003% as powerful as a single TL bolt from a damned Republic transport ship. And you seriously think anyone in the SW universe should be impressed by First Ones?

The Shadow ship gets hit with 250000 TJ in a fraction of a second, I translated that to watts by assuming that it was a quarter second, it may have been less than that, I was using a low end for its armor.

600 megatons = 2,511,600 terajoules/250,000 = 1/10 of a second. Okay, fair enough math. Now then, let's be very generous to the Bug Boys and say they absorbed the full shockwave of the bomb in order to get ripped up in "Into the Fire". Since the bomb released its energy in all directions, at MOST the Shadow got hit with 50% of the energy. (Again, being VERY generous; 25-35% would be more realistic.) 50% would be 1,255,800 terajoules.

Is this impressive? Not by Imperial standards. 666 of those Gayim (sp?) mines would be required to match the aforementioned SINGLE TL bolt. One shot, one kill = DEAD BUG. And don't tell me the Vorlons are hundreds of times tougher, otherwise the Shadows wouldn't be their "mortal enemy" - they'd be casual target practice.

And what is this about "low end" armor estimates?

Kruger, you can quite frankly fuck off for all I care, I have not resorted to cursing others(to now of course).

I prefer to have intelligent debates with all parties. However, the two things I have no tolerance for are 1) blatantly willful stupidity/ignorance and 2) twisting of facts to get to the conclusion you want rather than the truth. You're 100% guilty of the second. Judgment is still out on the first. Your tactics in this thread have been identical to those of the Trekkie dipshits that inspired Wong to create this site in the first place.

The series proves that modified telepaths can interface with computers, an energy being would be infinitely able to do this as it could simply "touch" the i/o port.

We saw modified Human telepaths implanted with wire jacks in the backs of their necks, presumably to interface with Shadow technology. We saw NOTHING of how energy beings would perform the same interface. Try offering some proof of the "infinite ability to do this" rather than just creationist-style intuition.

You have conceded that the shield is not planet wide, thus a single transport could jump in many klicks away and, with the steath technology available to the Vorlons travel through the jungle at low altitudes, land and allow its passengers, teeps or vorlons to get into the facility, much easier for vorlons who don't have to even worry about walls in Wong's opinion. You say that the facility would be protected from transports and personnel, you forget that this is a jungle not a big field, an entire tribe of Ewoks made it close enough to the facility and set traps in the brush without so much as a thought from the guards.

The Vorlons may be able to pull some interesting tricks on the ground. However, is this relevant? No, because completion of the mission requires the destruction of the DS from above, and the Vorlon fleet would be lucky to survive 60 seconds against the Endor fleet according to every single canon source. Forget the DS gun, who the hell even needs it?

Also, we have no idea what Vader would have sensed from the Tyderium had it been full of Vorlons. This is the Force vs. Vorlon psionics...a difficult situation to figure out the particulars of. I suppose the Vorlons could have sent a bunch of their telepathic Human servants instead.

What exactly was this comm ship, a full ISD or a corellian corvette? What ship is it that vorlons so obviously cannot destroy here?

I have no idea - I never heard about a dedicated comm ship before reading this thread. Regardless of what type it is, I seriously doubt that the deficit in firepower would allow even a Vorlon dreadnought to take down a Corellian corvette.

If I am substituting the Vorlons for the Rebels, then they would have taken over all operations, including relations with the Bothans and other species.

Whatever. Once they get to Endor, their fleet still dies quicker than the Humans did at the Battle of the Line.

If ISDs are as powerful as producing 8 million terawatts each, then the Vorlons would not be a problem at all, because vorlons are realistically less powerful than that. But really if the ISD is that powerful why not push all its power into shields and hyperspace into a star or a planet? No need for a death star at all. Thus there would be no death star 2 and the vorlons would have won by default!

8 million terawatts wouldn't do jack diddly shit towards having a Death Star effect on a planet. Now you're displaying total ignorance of the power required to perform feats of destruction. The dino-killer asteroid was equivalent to about 100 million megatons IIRC. That's a 418.6 billion terajoule release. Hmm...I can't help noticing that the planet is still here.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Be ... hStar.html

Feel free to check for yourself if you haven't already.

-Vorlon bows-

Yes, feel free to take a bow. You have put on quite a show, after all.

-If your brain has not been turned to soup by this logic then feel free to start cursing and being tiresomely uncivil-

Aw, how cute...the I'm More Civil Therefore I'm Right defense. How could my brain be turned to soup by the logic where no logic exists?

[Darth Wong]

Any Transport, vorlon or tyderium, would have made it to the surface, in that case, because the weapons would have had to be so low power as to not superheat the air on firing.

How is this going to let it get through the shield? I don't know what you've heard elsewhere, but this shield was globe-encircling. See the ROTJ novelization (and ask why the fuck they needed the shield deactivated to land on the moon).

In the ep. Interludes and Examinations, the Vorlon destroyer proves itself to have the ability to put out 40k of TW.
The Shadow ship gets hit with 250000 TJ in a fraction of a second ...

You're supposed to explain where that figure came from in somewhat more detail than merely citing an episode name. After seeing some of the incredibly bogus numbers games played by the likes of Adam Warlock (my favourite being his "neutron beam is green, therefore exawatt range" idea), we have learned to take B5 numbers with more than a grain of salt.

Besides, 250,000 TJ is a 60 megaton blast. If a Vorlon destroyer puts out 60 megaton blasts with its lone gun and an ISD puts out 200 gigaton blasts with each of its eight heavy turrets, guess who wins.

Kruger, you can quite frankly fuck off for all I care, I have not resorted to cursing others(to now of course).

Please look up "style over substance fallacy". It is all too easy for some asshole to dismiss an argument based solely on the appearance of a swear word, but it's totally childish and irrational.

The series proves that modified telepaths can interface with computers, an energy being would be infinitely able to do this as it could simply "touch" the i/o port.

You are assuming that Vorlons are pure energy even though they can be poisoned, and you are assuming that they can duplicate any arbitrary communications protocol. Justify these assumptions.

You have conceded that the shield is not planet wide, thus a single transport could jump in many klicks away and, with the steath technology available to the Vorlons travel through the jungle at low altitudes, land and allow its passengers, teeps or vorlons to get into the facility, much easier for vorlons who don't have to even worry about walls in Wong's opinion.

Don't fucking put words in my mouths, you little asshole. They don't have to worry about walls because the "last" of them after their bodies get blasted is ephemeral. But you conveniently forgot the part about how they're piss-weak in that state, and apart from being able to knock a few guys around, they really have never been shown to be capable of anything. How much DAMAGE did Casper do to the B5 walls on his way out?

As for the shield not being planet-wide, you're wrong. Read the ROTJ novelization.

You say that the facility would be protected from transports and personnel, you forget that this is a jungle not a big field, an entire tribe of Ewoks made it close enough to the facility and set traps in the brush without so much as a thought from the guards.

Because the stormies knew about them and didn't care. They would not react the same way to a starship making planet-fall.

What exactly was this comm ship, a full ISD or a corellian corvette? What ship is it that vorlons so obviously cannot destroy here?

By your own numbers, a Vorlon destroyer has less firepower than one of Slave-1's missiles. It couldn't destroy a frigate, much less a major vessel.

If I am substituting the Vorlons for the Rebels, then they would have taken over all operations, including relations with the Bothans and other species.

None of whom would have helped them. The Rebellion was an attempt to gain freedom from tyranny, rather than adopting a new tyranny.

If ISDs are as powerful as producing 8 million terawatts each, then the Vorlons would not be a problem at all, because vorlons are realistically less powerful than that. But really if the ISD is that powerful why not push all its power into shields and hyperspace into a star or a planet? No need for a death star at all. Thus there would be no death star 2 and the vorlons would have won by default!

You're an idiot. You think 8 million TW would destroy a planet. Please learn to do basic math.

-Vorlon bows-
-If your brain has not been turned to soup by this logic then feel free to start cursing and being tiresomely uncivil-

What "logic?" All I see is ignorant bullshit, misrepresentations, sophistry ... the usual Rabid Fiver stuff.

[Ender]

To be fair, his reference for Vorlon firepower comes from the work done at babtech.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/vorlons/warships.html

It's right under the pic of the transport entering the hanger bay.

[SyntaxVorlon]

Wong, I'm saying that according to Base Delta Zero an ISD can decimate a planet. And using a hyperdrive to slam a large enough mass into a planet would have nearly the same effect. Also if you used the energy ratings given in the TL commetaries, they you find the Death Star to put out at least 2.4x10^32 Tera Watts(Kruger, this is also called TW, as opposed to PW which would be PetaWatts) multiply that by 2 and divide by the average firepower of half of the empire's navy, then you would get the number of ships they have, and assuming the average ship is an ISD then they would have an ISD population ranging in the millions of trillions, more than enough to patrol and control a galaxy of 100 billion stars, what possible use would a Death Star be?

Vorlons are not piss weak in an energy state, the only thing that can kill a vorlon is another vorlon or another firstone, nothing the security personnel could do could stop one vorlon.
I was not dismissing his argument soly on the appearance of a swear word, I was later, using data to refute his points, which were few.
The first Vorlon vs Shadow battle in the series would not have held up to reference standards, therefore I used the episode name so you could look up information on that episode if you so choose, you did not.
Shield does encircle the planet, shield does not encircle the planet, shield does encircle the planet, please will someone make this clear.(And if you really say that the PShield was in the book I believe you)

Ender, please show that a jumppoint cannot open inside a shielded ship. A SW shield is not in any way based in hSpace, so a jump point could form within it, you say yourself that an object going through said shield must be grounded, thus meaning that said shield is based in particle fields or electro-magnetics.

Jump points close, vorlon ships have the ability to change their appearence at will.

Sea skimmer, you called someones arguments stupid then predicted they would be flamed. Who do you think will win the world series?