Books that advocate child abuse

[King Kong]

One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

Why are these people advocating physical punishment even when they admit that the child is too young to understand? Practice for when the child gets older and they can break out the belt? What is 'for her own good'?

[brianeyci]

One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

Why are these people advocating physical punishment even when they admit that the child is too young to understand? Practice for when the child gets older and they can break out the belt? What is 'for her own good'?

Obviously it's stress relief. Parenting can be difficult at times, so it is absolutely positively necessary for a child to be beat. This reduces the stress of a parent and therefore the chance of shaken baby syndrome killing the infant. Duh.

As well, when the child grows up, he learns to be a docile little dick who is afraid of life and lashes out at people who try and help him. But hey, by then he'll be old enough to stay out of your way, and it's all about the child tax credit anyway.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Ok... Mea culpa. I read 4months as 4 Years.

HOWEVER... I still believe that a 4 year old can and should be spanked if they are misbehaving. This is partially because of the misbehaving 3-7 year olds that I've seen in and out of my office this day, who could each and every one of them use a trip to the bathroom and a good paddling.

Yeah, so all of those studies showing the exact opposite must be full of shit then. Right

As for a switch? Go outside and pull a small branch off a low tree, about 2ft long and smaller around than your pinky (or a child's thumb). Bring it back to your parent, and turn around (or drop the drawers) so they can give you a switchin. God help you if you try to be cute and bring back a switch that's too small. It doubles the lashes.

Is this "Prove all the redneck stereotypes true" day in West Virginia?

I was 7-8yrs old when I was told to fetch a switch the first time. I was 10 when Mom and Dad started using the leather belt. So yes, I'm biased about spankings, becuase I know they worked on me and my brothers, adn they're working on my nephews when 'Time Out' just doesn't cover it.

And how do you know they're working? What is your control group and how are you accounting for variables?

[Big Phil]

Sorry, I think the best parenting method is mututal respect and explanation. Most children are naturally altruistic, and if you explain to them why they should act a certain way and why that is the right way, many will listen. Personally, I don't like children, but I'm surprisingly good at dealing with the ones I've met thus far.

If a kid still misbehaves, I think that a punishment should be formulated that is nonviolent but nevertheless frustrating for the child. Sitting in a corner, for instance, is not fun, and gives them time to reflect on why they are there.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit... Kids aren't anything except sponges that absorb everything around them, good, bad, or ugly. They're kids, for christ's sake. 4 year olds don't understand morality or ethics. How the fuck do you expect them to know how to behave if you don't teach them how to behave?

If you appeal to a child's "natural altruism," you're fucked. The kid is going to realize pretty damned quick that you're a moron who can be manipulated by pretending that they're really nice and good. When I hear this sort of bullshit from the parents of rotten kids ("Oh, but he's so well-behaved at home!") it makes me think that the parents are nothing but selfish, lazy, cowardly fucks who can't bother to actually be parents, and would rather have their children like them than respect them.

Snip

My dad used a belt on my brother and I until I was about 6 or so - I don't remember exactly what we did to have him get the belt, but I think he realized at some point that we weren't so glad to see him come home from work anymore, as it often meant the belt was coming out.

In my opinion, discipline should take the form of reward/punishment along with attention grabbers. If two kids are fighting tooth and nail, reasoning with them won't stop the fight, but horsecollaring them both and marching them into a corner (and holding them there if need be) will sure as hell get their attention. You don't need to hit the kids, but a completely hands off approach is simply unrealistic in all situations. And quite frankly, I don't accept that it's abuse to grab a kid, hold him/her down, etc., until they calm down.

The reward/punishment is very simple - the kid behaves, they get what they want; the kid misbehaves, they lose something they want. Nanny911 and similar shows demonstrate how to discipline children effectively without striking them.

[Darth Wong]

One question: what kind of a fucking pussy hits his kid with a switch instead of his bare hand? What's the matter, your hand gets too sore if you hit your kid? Can't take the stinging pain?

Here's a principle from the justice system we use on adults: let the punishment fit the crime. The only time I use any kind of physical punishment on the kids such as spanking is when they use violence on each other. Violence is a fair punishment for violence. But to hit a kid for non-violent offenses or (as in the book's example) climbing the stairs? How is that justifiable, when there are so many other ways you can discipline a child?

[Pick]

Sorry, I think the best parenting method is mututal respect and explanation. Most children are naturally altruistic, and if you explain to them why they should act a certain way and why that is the right way, many will listen. Personally, I don't like children, but I'm surprisingly good at dealing with the ones I've met thus far.

If a kid still misbehaves, I think that a punishment should be formulated that is nonviolent but nevertheless frustrating for the child. Sitting in a corner, for instance, is not fun, and gives them time to reflect on why they are there.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit... Kids aren't anything except sponges that absorb everything around them, good, bad, or ugly. They're kids, for christ's sake. 4 year olds don't understand morality or ethics. How the fuck do you expect them to know how to behave if you don't teach them how to behave?

If you appeal to a child's "natural altruism," you're fucked. The kid is going to realize pretty damned quick that you're a moron who can be manipulated by pretending that they're really nice and good. When I hear this sort of bullshit from the parents of rotten kids ("Oh, but he's so well-behaved at home!") it makes me think that the parents are nothing but selfish, lazy, cowardly fucks who can't bother to actually be parents, and would rather have their children like them than respect them.

As I said, you explain to them why a certain behavior is appropriate. After all, if we were trusted "natural altrusism" entirely and it worked, we wouldn't need to punish children at all (and I wouldn't have noted nonviolent punishment later.) What I am saying is that if you explain to a child why a certain behavior is correct and the appropriate context, they will then be in the position to make a better decision. You don't need to whip them for behaving badly the first time --you need to let them know why what they did was wrong. Then if it doesn't work, you continue with my later statement (nonviolent punishment.) My statment was not meant to suggest that they know what do to, instead that they are willing to be taught, precisely as you said (a la sponges.)

[LadyTevar]

Funny how none of these 'studies' started coming out until the late 80s-90s. Why weren't any of these studies done earlier?

Oh... pardon me... one was. I believe his name was Dr. Spock?

But, since I seem to be in the minority here (gee, WV redneck a Minority? say it ain't so!), I'll do you all a favor and ignore this thread from now on. Happy?

[Darth Wong]

Funny how none of these 'studies' started coming out until the late 80s-90s. Why weren't any of these studies done earlier?

You mean, during the era when pediatricians were so fucked up that they believed infants could not feel pain and did not require anesthetic during circumcision? Oh yeah, that's a superior authority.

Oh... pardon me... one was. I believe his name was Dr. Spock?

Why don't you summarize his methods and his conclusions, and explain how they disprove the more recent data regarding the prevalence of social adjustment problems among people who were beaten as children?

But, since I seem to be in the minority here (gee, WV redneck a Minority? say it ain't so!), I'll do you all a favor and ignore this thread from now on. Happy?

It would have been nicer if you had actually presented something resembling a shred of evidence for your position rather than mindless appeals to tradition.

[Big Phil]

snip

Agreed

[Darth Wong]

LadyTevar is apparently ignoring this thread now, but I think it's interesting to examine the mindset of the child abuse apologist. Unless someone is literally beating his child in public, how do you know whether he uses physical punishment? Do you walk up and ask him? Not likely. So the child abuse meme becomes self-perpetuating and self-reinforcing: when they see a bratty kid they assume his parents never use physical punishment on him, without inquiring to see whether this is truly the case. When they see a well-behaved kid they assume that his parents liberally used physical punishment to make him behave. And so every time they see a bratty kid or a well-behaved kid, they believe they are seeing more supporting evidence for their hypothesis.

The funny thing is that, as long as we're talking about personal anecdotes rather than the studies which are pretty much uniformly against the practice, I have observed that the few times I do see someone hitting his kid in public (thus proving beyond any doubt that this person uses physical punishment), the kid is rather bratty.

[The Jester]

Just wish to point out that there are countries out there that have completely banned corporal punishment of children by anyone, including their parents.

[Ritterin Sophia]

(gee, WV redneck a Minority? say it ain't so!)

Bullshit, even in the so called 'urban' areas rednecks abound, yes, I know, but apparently you've never been to Charleston, Montgomery, Elkins, Belington, Millcreek, or any of the other plethora of towns. They're probably the dumbest one's to boot, hell I decided to do a bit of experiment and grew mullet (It was a joke between me and my friends about it), I was derided as a hippy, despite the facts that I eat meat, don't wear tye-dye, am overall anti-drug, member of the NRA, and eat deer meat and deer jerky by over seventy-five percent of people who commented on it. This is from someone from Beverly, Randolph County, West Virginia; my family are a bunch of hypocritical rednecks but I love them just the same. Rednecks are FAR from a minority in West Virginia.

[Simplicius]

The funny thing is that, as long as we're talking about personal anecdotes rather than the studies which are pretty much uniformly against the practice, I have observed that the few times I do see someone hitting his kid in public (thus proving beyond any doubt that this person uses physical punishment), the kid is rather bratty.

Someone who would use physical punishment in public is likely someone who uses it preferentially and liberally, and therefore is likely a poor parent in general. Hence, bratty children.

(snip)

She meant here on the board.

[ArmorPierce]

Bullshit. Anyone who uses a switch to whip their kids is guilty of child abuse, and I don't care how many nuggets of deep-fried country old-time wisdom you choose to hurl my way; it won't change the fact that there is not a shred of evidence that such behaviour leads to better-adjusted children. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Hell, we don't even recommend that people train dogs that way, and people are recommending we hit four month old babies? That's the biggest pile of steaming bullshit I've seen in a long time.

Better-adjusted? Can't say.
Better behaved in public? Hell yes.

And you have studies to prove this steaming pile of bullshit that you're spewing? And to explain damning studies like this? And to explain how the fuck a four-month old child is going to learn anything but fear and anxiety from being struck with a switch by her parents?

Well last time I made my position clear I got dog piled so I'm not going to say much. That article is talking about hitting older kids that are into their adolescence which is again something that I am against for the most part (unless they are acting like a real dick but for that to happen you probably failed at showing them how to act when they were younger) because by then I think they are old enough so that you can use other forms of punishments and they will be able to think about it and reflect on it. Besides, imagine if you were never hit by your parent all your life and then out of no where you get smacked by them when you're 14. That's got to be pretty shocking and I think that I'd start to hate my parent. I do think that 6 months is far too young for physical punishment though.

[RedImperator]

There's a relatively narrow window where a child is old enough to understand the meaning of punishment but not old enough to really understand reason, where suffering mild physical pain as a result of doing something wrong could be an effective deterrent from doing it again without fucking the kid up. Younger than that, they're not going to make the connection between the pain and the action, older than that, the humiliation of being spanked is going to do far more harm than any possible good accomplished by mild discomfort. And any action which inflicts real pain on an older child is going to cross the line into abuse.

I think there's room for spanking in the disciplinary toolbox, but it ought to be a last resort and reserved for a certain age range. Beyond that range it's counterproductive, and before it it's abuse. How anyone could hit an infant with a switch and not hate himself afterwards is totally beyond me.

[ArmorPierce]

and to further elaborate before I get jumped on and people start saying that they hope that I'm castrated and never have kids. I'm not saying that corporal punishment is right or wrong and I really doubt that I would use it on my future kids unless they were acting like real spoiled brats since I would be able to provide them so much more than my parents did to me and they didn't appreciate it. My mother used it on me whenever I got her angry which is just about for anything and I got a beating with a belt. Made me bleed once because she used a tightly woven belt and she'd threaten to hit me with the metal side (don't remember if she ever did). Hispanic mothers for you. Only reason they stopped was because the last time she tried when I was 12 I just over powered her and took the ripped the belt from her hand.

[Darth Wong]

One question I'd have to ask proponents of capital punishment is whether they hit their kids when they're completely calm, or whether they do it in a moment of anger. If you hit your kid in a moment of anger, are you doing it because it is part of a logical child-rearing plan, or because you're angry? If you give yourself a cooldown period and then contemplate the idea of hitting your kid, does it still seem like a good idea?

If you're much more likely to do something when you're angry, it only makes sense that the action is motivated by your emotional state rather than the logical bullshit justifications you make up afterwards in order to explain your actions.

[Ritterin Sophia]

She meant here on the board.

Well, I believe there's a reason why they call it the World-Wide Web.

[Big Orange]

On a personal level I can remember my parents occasionally slapping me more out of temper rather than genuine strictness - my mother slapped me the most, while my dad just chased me around when very angry (threatening to slap me). The rest of the time my mum was firm but fair, while my dad was like a big teddy bear.

[Stark]

What freaks me out about this is that not only does the OP suggest people hit kids with bits of wood, but that there are some kind of regulation length-and-thickness bits of specific wood. Is their a beating stick industry in America? How much forethought do some people put into beating infants?

[Adrian Laguna]

One question I'd have to ask proponents of capital punishment is whether they hit their kids when they're completely calm, or whether they do it in a moment of anger. If you hit your kid in a moment of anger, are you doing it because it is part of a logical child-rearing plan, or because you're angry?

That reminds me, what about the threat of violence? I'm reminded because when my father is angry he is really scary. He yells, raises his fist or open hand in the air, and sometimes voices threats. Note that he has never hit me in anger, and hasn't hit me at all since he quit spankings roughly a decade ago. Still, every time I'm being a dick and it sets him off I can't help but think he finally will really do it. It's a rather unpleasant experience.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Is their a beating stick industry in America? How much forethought do some people put into beating infants?

Well naturally as Americans we are physically wired to be superior in every way to other nations' citizens, so as a general rule of thumb, replace the term 'switch' with tree branch...

Damn Americans and our overachieving ways!

Seriously, it normally just a branch from a bush, and like it's said, Woe to the child who tries to outsmart their parent/guardian by grabbing a smaller 'switch'.

[SAMAS]

One question: what kind of a fucking pussy hits his kid with a switch instead of his bare hand? What's the matter, your hand gets too sore if you hit your kid? Can't take the stinging pain?

Well, the only person in my family who used a switch on us was our grandmother.

Of course, she had to go the whole psychological torture bit on us, and make us go out and cut the switch for her to use.

[Surlethe]

One question I'd have to ask proponents of capital punishment is whether they hit their kids when they're completely calm, or whether they do it in a moment of anger. If you hit your kid in a moment of anger, are you doing it because it is part of a logical child-rearing plan, or because you're angry? If you give yourself a cooldown period and then contemplate the idea of hitting your kid, does it still seem like a good idea?

I can speak from my own experience as a child to answer this, at least partially: when I was in trouble, my parents always sent me to my room for at least five minutes, sometimes as many as twenty or thirty, before arriving to administer punishment. If I misbehaved in public, they either waited until we had returned home before spanking me, or, if my behavior was absolutely atrocious (I think this may have happened once or twice) they removed me to a private location to punish me.

So, as far as I can tell, my parents always gave themselves a cooldown period; I can't recall ever being hit in a moment of anger, so I can only suppose that my parents spanked me as part of the overall child-rearing plan, and thought it was a good idea during and after the cooldown time, while I was sitting in my room nervously awaiting my appointment with doom.

[LordShaithis]

I don't object to a physical "reminder" for a child doing something they know they shouldn't be doing. But it should be done...

A) Calmly.

B) Only after a verbal warning and some manner of "no cartoons" threat.

C) In such a way that nothing hurts a minute after you do it.

D) Infrequently and for relatively dire infractions only.

A slap on the wrist for a young child who really wants to get at that pot of water boiling on the stove and doesn't seem concerned when you tell them it will burn them. A spanking on the ass for a kid who gets caught stealing candy. Things like that.

The thing is, you're not trying to condition the kid through pain like they're some kind of animal. (The only way to do THAT is through a level of pain that I'd consider simple abuse.) You use physical punishment as a last resort, and the very fact that it IS a last resort give it a sort of mystique.

Like I think I got spanked on the ass maybe once as a kid, over a devious child's plan to throw away my report card so my parents couldn't find out about some bad grade I had. I don't recall it being particularly painful. But when it was actually time to go in there and get spanked, I was horrified. Not because I expected some excruciating pain. I mean, I knew my dad wasn't going to brutalize me or something. But between the fact that he had NEVER done it before and the fact that he WAS about to do it now, I knew I had done something worse than ANYTHING else I had ever done.

Now if he were just handing out the same spanking anytime I did anything wrong, it wouldn't have had any effect. It probably would have become a trivial punishment. It just didn't hurt that much. But just by the sheer gravity with which my parents treated the prospect of doing it, it became a sort of nuclear option.

But yeah, punishing an infant that can't "disobey" because they're TOO YOUNG TO UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE is fucking idiocy. They have gates to keep your kid from crawling up the stairs.