U.S. Theocrats Want Public Stoning and Slavery

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-08-24 05:19am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Oh, so people are property now, are they?

Yes. That is one of, if not the most basic assumption in Christian fundamentalism. It's literally a philosophy of "might makes right" or, to use a sci-fi analogy, that androids have no rights no matter how advanced they are. Apologists champion a concept called "absolute sovereignty". The crux of which is that God is within his rights to do whatever he wants to the universe or any of its inhabitants because he made it. He is above good and evil because they're merely aspects of this grand device he owns the patent on.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-24 05:06pm

Why is the Old Testament deeply amoral and anti-human, revelling in bloodshed and cruelty?

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-08-24 05:35pm

Big Orange wrote:Why is the Old Testament deeply amoral and anti-human, revelling in bloodshed and cruelty?

It was written by a warlike set of tribes, living in a harsh environment where resources were particularly scarse and in a time when it was kill or be killed on a tribal scale.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-08-24 05:39pm

Alyeska wrote:Why must you shatter my illussions? I prefer to think the people of this country aren't that stupid.

Because these people scare the hell out of me, and I want them to scare every other sane person in this country, too.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-24 08:12pm

Lord Zentei wrote:
Big Orange wrote:Why is the Old Testament deeply amoral and anti-human, revelling in bloodshed and cruelty?
It was written by a warlike set of tribes, living in a harsh environment where resources were particularly scarse and in a time when it was kill or be killed on a tribal scale.

The Old Testament is the product of a much more brutal age, but I'm still puzzled why some Christians strongly think the depraved actions displayed by God was somehow justified and sanctioned as "right".

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-08-24 08:43pm

I accidentally got a book called 'How to Read a Church' in my last sack o' books, and it discusses a lot of OT symbolism. Reading the short breakdowns makes it really hard to see how anyone can say it's better than humanist morality, like 'Samson totally ruined your door because he wanted a hooker' and 'David had a guy killed to marry his wife'. That's without even getting into the whole Exodus thing - and it's interesting that this book, while quite impartial on many things (contradictions, rationale, etc) doesn't even mention that Pharoah didn't let them go because god controlled his mind.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-24 11:41pm

This is all you need to know about Biblical morality: there is, in all of the Bible, only one moral lesson which is never contradicted anywhere. And that lesson is this: OBEY. You must obey the Lord. Any and all other rules are subject to situational interpretation, thus allowing characters in the Bible to violate them and be forgiven or even venerated. But the Bible's customary waffling and self-contradiction vanishes when the subject of obedience comes up, and it becomes absolutely crystal clear. OBEY.

At its heart, the Bible is manifestly fascist.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-08-24 11:51pm

Big Orange wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:
Big Orange wrote:Why is the Old Testament deeply amoral and anti-human, revelling in bloodshed and cruelty?
It was written by a warlike set of tribes, living in a harsh environment where resources were particularly scarse and in a time when it was kill or be killed on a tribal scale.
The Old Testament is the product of a much more brutal age, but I'm still puzzled why some Christians strongly think the depraved actions displayed by God was somehow justified and sanctioned as "right".

Most Christians regard the Bible as allegorical and avoid the issue that way. Others have not scrutinized the Bible sufficiently for them to be acutely aware of the excesses in it.

As for those who have read it in detail and beleive it to be literal and moral, i.e. fundamentalists, it is my perception that these people generally are lacking in a native sense of ethics and need to be told what to beleive is right. And they gravitate to codes that have unequivocal positions - such as "obey" - whic as Darth Wong points out above is the real message in the Bible.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-25 07:25am

Darth Wong wrote: At its heart, the Bible is manifestly fascist.

Ok, here's a loaded question: do you think Judaism and Christianity are both manifestly fascist? And while there is much talk about "Islamofascism" when many Nazis were staunch Catholics or Lutherans and Judaism is seemingly based on tribal snobbery (ie. being God's "chosen" and labelling non-Jews as "goyim").

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-25 08:21am

Big Orange wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:At its heart, the Bible is manifestly fascist.
Ok, here's a loaded question: do you think Judaism and Christianity are both manifestly fascist? And while there is much talk about "Islamofascism" when many Nazis were staunch Catholics or Lutherans and Judaism is seemingly based on tribal snobbery (ie. being God's "chosen" and labelling non-Jews as "goyim").

Absolutely. Both religions tell you that obedience to the most powerful ruler is the foundation of all morality. When challenged to explain why we should obey God, both Judaism and Christianity wax poetic about how powerful he is, how he is the Lord of Lord, the King of Kings, etc. Nothing there about how he should be obeyed because doing so will result in a more prosperous or free human society.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-25 03:19pm

So Jewish, Christian and Islamic dogma is essentially authoritarian in tone, if they preach pure obedience to an unseen leader instead of preaching human rights and freedom? And what about the tribalism (or racism) practiced by Judaism, Christianity and Islam?

The atrocities of Christian Europeans is very documented, but hardliner Jews and Muslims seem to discriminate as well. In many Muslim countries all non-Muslims were regulated to second or third class citizens and were sternly obliged to pay a special tax, of course there were exceptions, but it seemed like Muslims wanted to give non-Muslims a hard time (and some of them still do). And then there are the unabashedly xenophobic excesses of Zionism (also traditional Jewish communities tended to be insular and snobbish, calling outsiders "goyim").

Why do Abrahamic religions seem to be far more aggressive, expansionist and xenophobic than most other religions (like Paganism, Taoism or Buddhism)? Hinduism was probably more inclusive or tolerant too, but extremism may erupted in recent centuries following the introduction of Islam, Judaism and Christianity to the Indian sub-continent.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2006-08-25 07:53pm

Big Orange wrote:What scares me about EmperorSolo is how God is supposedly good and when he carries out genocide, oversees ethnic clensing and causes horrific natural disasters, he is supposedly carrying out "perfect justice".

He starts off with the assumption that God is good instead of showing that is so. Thus every atrocity must be good, and the apologetics makes sense if you assume that premise.

Of course you could throw him this one

Isaiah : 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lamentations : 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

This of course contradicts with another premise of Solo's, that the Bible is true.

Watch him squirm out of this one. I am willing to bet his reply would just be a repetition of his belief and doesn't really answer the question or, he would just say you are trying to trap him and he doesn't really need to answer.

BTW if you are interested in God's greatest hits (ie his atrocities) I have a word file which summarises a few of them. Doubtless there are others not stated on my file, but its a good starting point.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-08-26 12:23am

mr friendly guy wrote:
Big Orange wrote:What scares me about EmperorSolo is how God is supposedly good and when he carries out genocide, oversees ethnic clensing and causes horrific natural disasters, he is supposedly carrying out "perfect justice".
He starts off with the assumption that God is good instead of showing that is so. Thus every atrocity must be good, and the apologetics makes sense if you assume that premise.

Of course you could throw him this one

Isaiah : 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lamentations : 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

This of course contradicts with another premise of Solo's, that the Bible is true.

Watch him squirm out of this one.

"You're using the wrong translation."

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2006-08-26 07:24am

Paganism is not a single religion. It's a blanket term.

IIRC, Buddhism and Taoism were founded in an orderly era, with an established civil order. The land inhabited by the Israelites was more anarchic, a kill-or-be-killed type of life.

There wasn't even a standard local system of weights and measurements in the old testament, let alone concepts like human rights or the social contract.

When I was much younger, I remember haering a sermon talking about God's right as a sovereign. Years later, when I had started questioning my (now former) religion, I thought about how many people in America came here to get away from horseshit like the Divine Right of Kings.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-28 02:08pm

mr friendly guy wrote: BTW if you are interested in God's greatest hits (ie his atrocities) I have a word file which summarises a few of them. Doubtless there are others not stated on my file, but its a good starting point.

Sorry for being rude, mr friendly guy, but can you provide a link to your word file please.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-28 02:13pm

Setzer wrote:Paganism is not a single religion. It's a blanket term.

IIRC, Buddhism and Taoism were founded in an orderly era, with an established civil order. The land inhabited by the Israelites was more anarchic, a kill-or-be-killed type of life.

Some pagan religions may have carried out grotesque things like the sacrificing virgin girls or small children. And Abrahamic religions like Judaism was the product of it's time and surroundings (a big dust bowl full of scrabbling tribes that killed each other over scant resources). Maybe this stern Abrahamic mentality introduced to Europeans led indirectly to WWI, WWII and the Holocaust.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-08-28 02:26pm

That's a scary read. Stoning the 'nonbelivers'? What do these people want, an Inquisition in every town? And these people see themselves as "good Christians". *Shudders*

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-08-28 08:45pm

Big Orange wrote:Why do Abrahamic religions seem to be far more aggressive, expansionist and xenophobic than most other religions (like Paganism, Taoism or Buddhism)?

I think a common belief here is that it is because Abrahamic religions were founded in a region with little natural resources (seeing as how they had no need for crude) and a habit of being the stomping grounds of the armies of several of the oldest empires in the Eurasian continent.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2006-08-28 11:52pm

Those two guys mentioned in the OP make the circuits of Georgia's colleges IIRC; they get a mention in the school paper whenever they show up. They park their asses on some of the grass outdoors and preach till the cops show up and escort them away; usually by then they've gotten quite the crowd and are putting on a show, with chalkboard and all...

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-08-29 04:58am

What... No Swastika? I'll have to get one of my grandparents uniforms, I'm thinking I'll give him the SS uniform, and I'll be wearing the Comissar Uniform.

Yes folks, I'm sorry to say, I'm half Nazi/Half Commie. I am torn between two equally oppresive methods to genocide and 'world order' that hate each other, it's gotten so bad that I sleep with a knife in both hands, just so neither side gets any funny ideas.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-30 04:09pm

Civil War Man wrote: I think a common belief here is that it is because Abrahamic religions were founded in a region with little natural resources (seeing as how they had no need for crude) and a habit of being the stomping grounds of the armies of several of the oldest empires in the Eurasian continent.

Do you think Europe was much more politically unstable due to Christianity and Judaism?

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-08-30 04:55pm

Big Orange wrote:Do you think Europe was much more politically unstable due to Christianity and Judaism?

During the Dark Ages? Hell yes. Europe was an unrecognizable clusterfuck until the Enlightenment. They've become increasingly more stable as they've moved further away from religious rule.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-08-30 06:43pm

Civil War Man wrote: During the Dark Ages? Hell yes. Europe was an unrecognizable clusterfuck until the Enlightenment. They've become increasingly more stable as they've moved further away from religious rule.

But what about the pan-European, pan-global conflicts during the "Imperial Age" that finally accumulated into the 20th century with WWI and WWII? Although Abrahamic religious beliefs were essentially behind the Holocaust and the Catholic Church was still a powerful political force well into the modern era (arguably even now).