Bulets able to kill jedi?

[Noble Ire]

If my expirience playing Battlefront 2 is any indication, the Jedi are completely unable to defend against any ranged attack directed at their legs, and that four good shots in the kneecap from a blaster rifle is enough to kill them.

but seriousley, I have seen nothing to suggest that light sabers vaporize metal completely. also, nothing can block a .45-70 Gov't.

You really ought to read through the thread before you post.

As others have pointed out in detail, lightsabers seem to possess certain "solid" properties that could either slow a projectile's momentum enough for it to be destroyed or rendered useless, or deflect it outright. And even if they didn't, if besieged by a relatively limited number of shots, a Jedi could simply intercept them with the Force.

[Major Maxillary]

You really ought to read through the thread before you post.

Yeah, I really should.

[Cykeisme]

Addressing an earlier quote:

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. But it seems easier to assume from the passage that the flechette weapons were just very effective weapons than trying to make the leap that the jedi in question was not very good at combat and that she was not good at fighting against opponents armed with only lasers or blasters.

I'm surprised no one mentioned that Maks Leem really isn't very good at combat, for a Jedi. She's something of a pacifist.

She felt slow. Out of shape. Now, in the crystal clarity of battle, it seemed clear to her that her hatred for the war had manifested itself in a dull subconscious resistance to the whole idea of fighting. She had trained, of course she had. But not enough—not enough for this new scenario, in which the Jedi had been debased, falling from their true calling as peacekeepers to something very close to mercenaries.

She had not trained enough for this new scenario of the Clone Wars! It's hardly any wonder at all she didn't handle flechettes as easily as more combat-savvy frontline Jedi, such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, who constantly brave the worst the CIS has to throw at Jedi.

[Darth Fanboy]

Addressing an earlier quote:

I'm surprised no one mentioned that Maks Leem really isn't very good at combat, for a Jedi. She's something of a pacifist.

IIRC it was mentioned, she is a Jedi Master however, and although not as proficient at combat as other Jedi that doesn't make her incompetent

She had not trained enough for this new scenario of the Clone Wars! It's hardly any wonder at all she didn't handle flechettes as easily as more combat-savvy frontline Jedi, such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, who constantly brave the worst the CIS has to throw at Jedi.

Yes, she didn't handle this scenario well. The fact that it IS a scenario means that the weapons were being used on a wider scale due to their effectiveness, and not just against Jedi who weren't as powerful.

You really like to compare her to Obi Wan, who is arguably one of the most powerful Jedi in the entire order during this time, obviously she isn't going to be up to snuff compared to him, barely any Jedi save for those on the council or Anakin are going to be able to do so.

[Kurgan]

I'll repeat my earlier thought:

All the Jedi suck in combat except for Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, and Luke (of course).

When you get to the EU of course, anything is possible. Suddenly you have no-name characters beating everyone (often through cheating, but still).

[Noble Ire]

I'll repeat my earlier thought:

All the Jedi suck in combat except for Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, and Luke (of course).

When you get to the EU of course, anything is possible. Suddenly you have no-name characters beating everyone (often through cheating, but still).

Aside from the fact that your assertion is patently untrue (a vast majority of Jedi portrayed in the EU, at least in the OR, are rather ineffective in combat), why do you think that it would make sense that, in an organization of tens of thousands of telepathic telekinetics, only half a dozen of them could actually fight? If that was the case, the idea of exclusively Jedi leading the GAR would have made even less sense than it actually does.

[Darth Fanboy]

If that was the case, the idea of exclusively Jedi leading the GAR would have made even less sense than it actually does.

I agree with your statements, but I must admit that one need not be a proficient fighter in order to be a good general/commander. The Jedi may have been considered the best leaders for their knowledge and other command-related abilities as much as their combat proficiency.

[Noble Ire]

If that was the case, the idea of exclusively Jedi leading the GAR would have made even less sense than it actually does.

I agree with your statements, but I must admit that one need not be a proficient fighter in order to be a good general/commander. The Jedi may have been considered the best leaders for their knowledge and other command-related abilities as much as their combat proficiency.

That would make sense if not for the fact that most Jedi who fought in the war actually entered engaged in personal combat to some extent, as fighter pilots, inflitrators, support personnel, and front-line commanders. Indeed, aside from a few Jedi who served just as instructors, advisors, and diplomats, I can't really think of any Jedi who participated in the war and didn't directly see action (and as far as I know, there were no Jedi who served as admirals or warship captains, either).

[Cykeisme]

Addressing an earlier quote:

I'm surprised no one mentioned that Maks Leem really isn't very good at combat, for a Jedi. She's something of a pacifist.

IIRC it was mentioned, she is a Jedi Master however, and although not as proficient at combat as other Jedi that doesn't make her incompetent

You know, admittedly, it's kind of silly that I'm reading Dark Rendezvous even as this thread progresses.. and I'm reading it at a rather plodding place, at that.

Whatever the case, did you forget that Whie, a Padawan, telekinetically deflected a stream of flechettes, or did you decide that it wasn't important to this discussion?

 Back on the main level, Whie leapt off the balcony railing with a loud cry, hoping to distract the assassin droid aiming a flechette launcher at Scout. The droid turned, the gun's throaty chatter roared out, and a hail of razor-sharp tracers came keening through the air at Whie. He twisted, using the Force to deflect the stream of metal up into the ceiling.

So Maks Leem is a self-admitted pacifist. She is a Jedi Master, but has not taken a command rank in the Grand Army, typically staying within the temple walls. Not that it's a bad thing; Jedi are not soldiers, and many Jedi are not combatants. However, we're discussing combat here. She's lax on combat training, and by your own admission, is not as proficient at combat as other Jedi.. including Padawan Whie.
This doesn't make her incompetent? Hmm, it is a rather qualitative term, I suppose. But personally, I'd say yeah, as much as I like her characterization, she is incompetent when it comes to fighting.

She had not trained enough for this new scenario of the Clone Wars! It's hardly any wonder at all she didn't handle flechettes as easily as more combat-savvy frontline Jedi, such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, who constantly brave the worst the CIS has to throw at Jedi.

Yes, she didn't handle this scenario well. The fact that it IS a scenario means that the weapons were being used on a wider scale due to their effectiveness, and not just against Jedi who weren't as powerful.

You really like to compare her to Obi Wan, who is arguably one of the most powerful Jedi in the entire order during this time, obviously she isn't going to be up to snuff compared to him, barely any Jedi save for those on the council or Anakin are going to be able to do so.

You're right, perhaps the fact that a Padawan could telekinetically deflect flechettes is more pertinent. Is there a point to continuing any longer?

[Darth Fanboy]

Whatever the case, did you forget that Whie, a Padawan, telekinetically deflected a stream of flechettes, or did you decide that it wasn't important to this discussion?

I have agreed with you before that there are Jedi who can handle such weaponry. But because it isn't effective against one Jedi doesn't make it less effective against others. It goes back to what I said earlier, why would they even bring the launchers along if they weren't going to be effective? Because they had been proven effective, just because Whie (who happens to be an incredibly gifted Padawan), Obi Wan, and other Jedi have been able to handle the weapon before doesn't rule it out entirely.

Also, if you recall earlier in the discussion, I talk about how the more launchers there are the better. Whie goes up against one Assassin droid while Maks Leem is facing two. I'm not saying Whie would have fared better or worse against two assassin droids, but it would change the predicament much more. Lets also not forget that when I talk about these weapons earlier in this thread, I mention that there needs to be enough to overwhelm the target JEdi, and that one or two I have already admitted might not be enough for one jedi, and especially not enough for a combat proficient jedi like Anakin or Obi Wan.

So Maks Leem is a self-admitted pacifist. She is a Jedi Master, but has not taken a command rank in the Grand Army, typically staying within the temple walls. Not that it's a bad thing; Jedi are not soldiers, and many Jedi are not combatants. However, we're discussing combat here. She's lax on combat training, and by your own admission, is not as proficient at combat as other Jedi.. including Padawan Whie.
This doesn't make her incompetent? Hmm, it is a rather qualitative term, I suppose. But personally, I'd say yeah, as much as I like her characterization, she is incompetent when it comes to fighting.

So a Jedi Master with years of lightsaber training is incompetent when it comes to fighting? YEs it is her nature to be a pacifist, as a Jedi and as a Gran, but all Padawans and Apprentices go through certain training and trials for years that puts them ahead of the curve, I can't imagine a Jedi MAster neglecting those skills so badly. Lets put that aside however and assume she can't really fight all that well. There is no reason to assume she cannot deflect blaster bolts as well as the average Jedi, which means that the flechettes come into play for both damaging effect and for the effect you mentioned earlier, a weapon that cannot be easily turned or deflected.

You're right, perhaps the fact that a Padawan could telekinetically deflect flechettes is more pertinent. Is there a point to continuing any longer?

You've already admitted as much that Flechettes and grenades are effective anti-jedi weapons in that they can't be turned back as easily as a blaster bolt. And i've already admitted as much that it takes a shitload of them to have any sort of effect especially when a skilled jedi is the target. Is there anything left we need to argue other than technicalities?

EDIT:

Reworded to improve coherency

[Kurgan]

I'll repeat my earlier thought:

All the Jedi suck in combat except for Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, and Luke (of course).

When you get to the EU of course, anything is possible. Suddenly you have no-name characters beating everyone (often through cheating, but still).

Aside from the fact that your assertion is patently untrue (a vast majority of Jedi portrayed in the EU, at least in the OR, are rather ineffective in combat), why do you think that it would make sense that, in an organization of tens of thousands of telepathic telekinetics, only half a dozen of them could actually fight? If that was the case, the idea of exclusively Jedi leading the GAR would have made even less sense than it actually does.

It's just my sarcastic hunch that seems to handily explain why the rest of the Jedi seem like such pushovers (I could have just said "character shields" though). Was that a typo or were you agreeing with me?

As for EU Jedi being awesome I'm thinking of various characters created by Timothy Zahn, KJA and those from the Jedi Knight series. I don't mean that they didn't fight, I just mean that for some reason the skill disparity between these main character Jedi and the rest of the 10,000 seems an incredibly wide gulf. I should probably have added Qui Gon Jinn to that list as well.

[Cykeisme]

Oh okay, I thought the point you were making was that Jedi were unable to stop flechettes from striking them, which is obviously untrue based on what Obi-Wan and Whie did.
Earlier on you seemed to be making the point that flechettes were harder to stop than blaster bolts. Patently not the case, seeing as how TK walls can be used against flechettes, whereas a blaster can fire at 750rpm and the Jedi has only his thin blade as defense.

I meant that they can easily defend themselves against both kinetic impactors and blaster bolts. Likewise, sufficient massed fire of either can overwhelm them. Hence, I earlier stated that the key difference is that blaster bolts can be reflected at their firers, whereas kinetic projectiles cannot.

"Technicalities"? I'll grant that.



Also, Maks Leem is certainly not typical of Jedi combat capabilities. She was taken aback by the flechette launchers to the point that she didn't even consider attempting to use a tekinetic defense.
Meanwhile, Jai Maruk was only hit by one flechette (his right hip), while Whie, Scout and Yoda were hit by none.. nor was Kenobi, facing Durge. While Yoda is are obviously at the top of the pile, I'd expect combat-experienced Knights and Masters to be able to exceed Whie's feats.
I'd also submit that Noble Ire is right. Jedi that serve as Generals in the Grand Army are good at fighting. It seems to be what they do.

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh okay, I thought the point you were making was that Jedi were unable to stop flechettes from striking them, which is obviously untrue based on what Obi-Wan and Whie did.
Earlier on you seemed to be making the point that flechettes were harder to stop than blaster bolts. Patently not the case, seeing as how TK walls can be used against flechettes, whereas a blaster can fire at 750rpm and the Jedi has only his thin blade as defense.

I do not think Jedi are unable to stop flechette rounds, but where I am disagreing with you is their level of effectiveness. If they aren't effective anti-Jedi weapons, then why are a pack of assassin droids armed with intel from Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress ringing them to a fight where they know that at some point YODA will get involved?

I meant that they can easily defend themselves against both kinetic impactors and blaster bolts. Likewise, sufficient massed fire of either can overwhelm them. Hence, I earlier stated that the key difference is that blaster bolts can be reflected at their firers, whereas kinetic projectiles cannot.

Its easier to scatter fire from a flechette launcher, since it comes out in a buckshot like spread. With fire coming from multiple angles it would take someone incredibly talented to handle that. Every instance you have of a Jedi easily dealing with massed projectiles was where they come from but one source.

"Technicalities"? I'll grant that.
Also, Maks Leem is certainly not typical of Jedi combat capabilities. She was taken aback by the flechette launchers to the point that she didn't even consider attempting to use a tekinetic defense.

Have you considered that a TK defense wasn't practical? If she uses TK to handle one stream of razors she leaves herself vulnerable to the others, you yourself says she isn't the most powerful of all Jedi, and I don't think that the average JEdi Knight or Master has that kind of strength with the force to TK away two angles worth of flechette spreads long enough and maintain an effective defense against a pair of high-end assassin droids.

You haven't done a very good job of proving that she is a below average fighter. All you've pointed out is that she is a pacificst at heart and was ill-prepared for the flechette launchers. You bring up Whie's defense as an example, but he was only up against one droid and nowhere near as overwhelmed as Maks Leem, who was taking fire from two different ways. Also you speak of Whie as a mere Padawan, when it is well noted in the book that he is exceptionally talented with the Force.

Meanwhile, Jai Maruk was only hit by one flechette (his right hip), while Whie, Scout and Yoda were hit by none.
. nor was Kenobi, facing Durge. While Yoda is are obviously at the top of the pile, I'd expect combat-experienced Knights and Masters to be able to exceed Whie's feats.

Then why field those weapons at all? I've already said it, but they knew they were going into a fight against Yoda and still chose to include those weapons as part of their armament. The fact that they were able to do damage to Jai Maruk instead of having their blaster bolts reflected back at them is a testament to their effectiveness. I think Yoda would have dealt with them, because i'm sure he was underestimated in his strength. But the launchers were brought because of a reputation for effectiveness against Jedi.

I'd also submit that Noble Ire is right. Jedi that serve as Generals in the Grand Army are good at fighting. It seems to be what they do.

The first words I spoke to Noble Ire in my reply to him were "I agree with your stements,". The rest of statement was only an acknowledgement of the fact that one need not be the best fighter in order to be a good general.

(and as far as I know, there were no Jedi who served as admirals or warship captains, either).

During the battle of Rendili, Saesee Tinn was in charge of the Republic capital ships, at Praesitlyn Anakin Skywalker and Nejaa Halcyon had command of their own capital ships prior to their landing on the planet. Although you are right in that they never held the rank of Admiral or Captain as far as I can tell.

[Cykeisme]

Its easier to scatter fire from a flechette launcher, since it comes out in a buckshot like spread. With fire coming from multiple angles it would take someone incredibly talented to handle that. Every instance you have of a Jedi easily dealing with massed projectiles was where they come from but one source.

Blaster fire coming from multiple droids at multiple angles does the same thing to a Jedi! That's what hapens at Geonosis. A blaster rifle can fire at 750rpm, over twelve shots a second. A slugthrower doesn't exceed that significantly, if at all. Yes, lots of flechettes coming from lots of directions will get a Jedi, but same thing with blasters.

Then why field those weapons at all? I've already said it, but they knew they were going into a fight against Yoda and still chose to include those weapons as part of their armament. The fact that they were able to do damage to Jai Maruk instead of having their blaster bolts reflected back at them is a testament to their effectiveness.

That's my point. Jedi are equally capable of preventing themselves of coming to harm from flechettes as from blaster bolts. The difference is reflection vs stopping the projectiles! That's why the novel had that line about "heard Jedi were good at deflecting blaster bolts." Massed blaster fire will take down a Jedi as well as massed flechettes, but you'll be losing droids as soon as you start firing.

You are not more likely to hit a Jedi with a flechette weapon than with a blaster. That isn't why flechettes are used.

To paraphrase yet again, you use flechettes if you don't want your own units getting scrapped by their own weapon fire.

Flechettes = deflected elsewhere
Blaster bolts = possibly reflected at attackers

[Darth Fanboy]

Blaster fire coming from multiple droids at multiple angles does the same thing to a Jedi! That's what hapens at Geonosis. A blaster rifle can fire at 750rpm, over twelve shots a second. A slugthrower doesn't exceed that significantly, if at all. Yes, lots of flechettes coming from lots of directions will get a Jedi, but same thing with blasters.

Correct me if i'm wrong but you seem to be ignoring the scattering effect of the Flechette rounds.

That's my point. Jedi are equally capable of preventing themselves of coming to harm from flechettes as from blaster bolts. The difference is reflection vs stopping the projectiles! That's why the novel had that line about "heard Jedi were good at deflecting blaster bolts." Massed blaster fire will take down a Jedi as well as massed flechettes, but you'll be losing droids as soon as you start firing.

Don't forget that it is more of a strain to use TK to deflect flechettes than it is to use a lightsaber to block blaster bolts.

You are not more likely to hit a Jedi with a flechette weapon than with a blaster. That isn't why flechettes are used.

To paraphrase yet again, you use flechettes if you don't want your own units getting scrapped by their own weapon fire.

Flechettes = deflected elsewhere
Blaster bolts = possibly reflected at attackers

Again, you seem to be ignoring the scattering effect.

An example from EGWT has a flechette pistol as having an optimum range of 100 meters, but these weapons are being used much closer than that. You're trying to tell me that a Jedi can just as easily handle a cloud of razors heading at them as easily as a blaster bolt that, although it is being fired at 750rpm, is being fired in a straight line?

We're also talking about Jedi, who as we saw in TPM can move at incredible speeds. The Flechette launchers provides a more generous aim against those speedy jedi. A blaster rifle does not if said Jedi is moving fast enough, especially given the leaping ability many possess.

[Cykeisme]

Don't forget that it is more of a strain to use TK to deflect flechettes than it is to use a lightsaber to block blaster bolts.

I don't know, the flechettes seem to be very small and light. Deflecting them along a vector more or less perpendicular to their line of travel won't take much effort.. likely far less less than telekinetically striking groups of battle droids so hard that they fall apart. It doesn't really matter whether they're fired in clouds or not, when it comes to TK.

You're trying to tell me that a Jedi can just as easily handle a cloud of razors heading at them as easily as a blaster bolt that, although it is being fired at 750rpm, is being fired in a straight line?

A blaster bolt being fired at 750rpm? One blaster bolt.. being fired at 750rpm. That makes no sense.

[Darth Wong]

The idea that a 750rpm repeating weapon (leaving aside the fact that repeaters in SW actually repeat much faster than that) would have precisely aligned bolts is truly ridiculous. Weapons like that have a random spread pattern, which is an inevitable side-effect of recoil and inaccuracy. You can't treat a stream of high-rpm shots as a "straight line".

[Darth Fanboy]

I don't know, the flechettes seem to be very small and light. Deflecting them along a vector more or less perpendicular to their line of travel won't take much effort.. likely far less less than telekinetically striking groups of battle droids so hard that they fall apart. It doesn't really matter whether they're fired in clouds or not, when it comes to TK.

Easy to say if its one shot coming at a predictable angle while the Jedi wasn't already focusing on something else. And any jedi that can coordinate his telekinesis to the point where he/she can handle multiple clouds of tiny razorblades coming at them while staying aware enough to keep themselves out of danger is going to be very damn powerful to begin with.

snip

My mistake on the "straight line" thing.

My question (and i am seriously asking this) is then is the spread pattern on those weapons going to be as spread as would some like a flechette round, or buckshot from a shotgun? In a firefight against an opponent such as a Jedi, where someone wielding a firearm will get a limited opportunity of shots, i'll go with the weapon that has the more generous aim.

Since each blaster bolt is being fired separately, that means that the bolts obviously aren't going to be reaching simultaneously, thus a Jedi moving at high speeds is going to have an easier time getting out of the way of one shot, but is the delay (albeit a short one) between each bolt going to be close enough to make up for the fact that only one bolt at a time is being fired (albeit very fast)?