Those reference stuff I promised (was Re: 'Nam)

[RayCav of ASVS]

From John A. Garraty's The American Nation

Page 824:

"Some men," he (LBJ) said, "want power so they can strut around to 'Hail to the Chief;.. . . I wanted it to use it."

The man who wants all the power to strut around is a despot; the man who wants all the power period, is an even worse depot.

Sensing the public mood, he pushed hard for Kennedy's programs.

Pretty much says it right there.

Early in his career he had voted against a bill making lynching a federal crime and had opposed bills out lawing state poll taxes and establishing the federal Fair Employment Practices Comission. But after he became important in national affiar s he consistently champoined racidal equaility. "Civil rights are going to have to wear sneakers to keep up with me," he now boasted.

Yes, he was important to civil rights, but looks like he merely changed his opinion to be more inline with public opinion, to ensure his popularity.

Page 825:

"Early in 1964 Kennedy's tax cut was passed and the resulting economic stimulus caused a boom of major dimentions. A few months later, an expanded version of another Kennedy measure became law, the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

More of Kennedy's legislation being passed off under LBJ.


Also, I would like to request to keep the Kennedy/LBJ debate under this thread, and spare the 'Nam thread for just that - 'Nam.[/i]

[Virgil Caine]

Alright, second time a post gets erased when I try to submit it. That's getting annoying.

The man who wants all the power to strut around is a despot; the man who wants all the power period, is an even worse depot.

You're reading into that what you want to hear. It could also be read to indicate that Johnson wanted to use the presidency for getting things done--unlike Kennedy, who was unpopular to the degree where his re-election in 1964 was questionable and who refrained from addressing controversial issues.

Pretty much says it right there.

That's one book's opinion. Again I suggest that you read Robert Caro's biographies of LBJ before deciding arbitrarily that he just stole from the president before him and had no original ideas save 'despotic' ones. The book Generations of Americans: A History of the United States differentiates between Kennedy and Johnson legislation, and seperates completely the 1964 party plank--Johnson legislation--from the New Frontier of four years earlier.

looks like he merely changed his opinion to be more inline with public opinion, to ensure his popularity

Whether or not that was true in the 1960s, it wasn't true in the late 1950s. But Johnson held on to his ideas then, too:

As majority leader...his skilled leadership was largely responsible for passage of the civil-rights bills of 1957 and 1960--the first in the 20th century (1)

And in 1964, he jeopardized a great many electoral votes by sticking to his guns:

In New Orleans, a gutsy Johnson displayed his commitment to civil rights...Johnson's open voicing of sentiments like this contributed heavily to his losses inthe traditionally Democratic "solid south." (2 -- page 947)

And as for Kennedy's record:

Kennedy...proceeded gingerly to redeem his promises [election rhetoric concerning civil rights] ... political concerns stayed the president's hand...bold moves for racial justice would have to wait. (2 -- page 943)

His association with the movement was described as "reluctant." And, The Kennedys proved ultra-wary about the political associates of Martin Luther King, Jr. Fearful of embarassing revelations that some of the King's advisers had communist affiliations, Robert Kennedy [ordered King's phones wiretapped] (2 -- page 943)

More of Kennedy's legislation being passed off under LBJ.

I'm not willing to concede that point, because none of my sources speak strongly one way or the other. However, I do believe the following:
1. It's doubtful that Kennedy would have taken such a firm stance on Civil Rights; see as above
2. There's no reason to believe that Kennedy would have been successful in passing legislation, either--he didn't have firm control over Congress or public opinion, and he didn't have the strength Johnson did.

-Virgil

1. Johnson, Lyndon Baines. Author unknown; Encyclopedia Britannica; 1994 ed.
2. The American Pageant. David Kennedy, Thomas Bailey, and Lizabeth Cohen. 1998. Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston, MA.
3. Generations of Americans: A History of the United States. Polakoff et. al. 1976. St Martin's Press. New York, NY.