are space combat sim games a dead genre?

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2006-08-30 09:08am

When I was younger, It seemed like they were everywhere. The Star Wars: X-wing series , the Wing Commander series. Now it seems like they've just kind of died off. The newest space combat sim I can remember playing (not including fanmade stuff like the FS source code project) is Freespace 2. The newest one I can remember hearing about is Freelancer, and that barely even counts.

What happened? Why did companies just stop making this genre? IIRC they sold fairly well.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-08-30 09:23am

They didn't sell that well, which was the issue.

Neither FS2, nor Iwar2 were large commercial hits, FS2 since Interplay decided to market the forgetable Klingon Academy instead of FS2, Iwar2 for reasons unknown.

Freelancer was a moderate sucess from what I hear, not large enough to justify further work.

Post by **Edi** » 2006-08-30 09:48am

It also has more to do with fucked up storylines than anything else. TIE Fighter came out in, what, 1994 or 1995? X-Wing and the early Wing Commanders predate that significantly.

Wing Commander 3 had a really crappy plot, WC4 was, all things considered, interesting plot-wise, but WC: Prophecy was a complete fiasco. Freespace 1 was great, and so was FS2, but that one was shafted by shitty marketing. AFAIK, IWar was always more of a niche game and difficult for people who have been used to the atmospheric flight model.

In the same period since then, there have been how many highly successful WW2 and other combat flight sims? The problem is that space combat sims tend to be poorly marketed and have absolutely shitty plots. Just remaking the first two Wing Commander games and their expansion packs would probably be highly profitable, because they had fucking kick-as plots, an interesting enemy and easy gameplay.

The same could be said of the Freespace series, so that one would be welcome for a remake as well. As long as they put enough focus on having good writing for the plot and everything else on par, things should go well if they bother to market it. But so long as the only things they produce are WC:P style shit or something that is just "meh" to "maybe", they can forget about success.

Edi

Post by **Edi** » 2006-08-30 09:50am

I should also add that as long as they make mission crafting and campaign tools available and easy to use, they can get a shitload of bang for buck, since good games tend to encourage user contribution, thus extending their shelf-life considerably.

Edi

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-08-30 09:55am

Edi wrote:I should also add that as long as they make mission crafting and campaign tools available and easy to use, they can get a shitload of bang for buck, since good games tend to encourage user contribution, thus extending their shelf-life considerably.

Edi

Which you could say takes the wind out of making any other game, with FS2 still going strong years later and people showing no signs of giving up on it.

Ravencrow · Post by **Ravencrow** » 2006-08-30 10:34am

Edi wrote:In the same period since then, there have been how many highly successful WW2 and other combat flight sims? The problem is that space combat sims tend to be poorly marketed and have absolutely shitty plots. Just remaking the first two Wing Commander games and their expansion packs would probably be highly profitable, because they had fucking kick-as plots, an interesting enemy and easy gameplay.

Just a shot in the dark here. But might the lack of space sims be due to a lack of imagination on the part of game makers?

There are so many WW2 games and combat flight sims based in the real world, because it's easy to look around you and create a scenario. Plus, if they run out of ideas, it's a matter of flipping through a history book and making a what-if scenario.

As for space flight sims, I'm guessing space sims would require one to build the environment and storyline from scratch. One would probably require more imagination and creative power to create a good space flight sim compared to the common combat flight sims where resources are abundant.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2006-08-30 10:57am

Darksider wrote:What happened? Why did companies just stop making this genre? IIRC they sold fairly well.

The problem is that eventually they stopped selling well. There were various problems that have been mentioned. Space combat games tend to require relatively complex control systems (tar getting, energy management, and orders, for example) and typically the user needs to have a decent joystick. (Nevermind that control schemes have been getting simpler and more effective in games like FreeSpace.)

Game publishers seem to want developers to make games with simple control schemes and mouse-and-keyboard controls, so that the games can reach a larger audience. So space combat games are seen as riskier. And FS2 didn't sell well, which makes them seem even riskier in the eyes of the publishers (self-fulfilling prophecy here since it's the publisher's fault that FS2 didn't sell well).

LucasArts has been focusing on other game series such as Rogue Squadron and Jedi Starfighter. X-Wing Alliance was a disappointment across the board: graphics needed work (what's up with those explosions? It's like they made them bad on purpose), multiplayer regressed (more customizable than XvT but also more boring and simplistic), storyline was a disappointment, etc.

I'd like to see more space combat games, though. They're my favorite gaming genre.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-08-30 11:24am

Theres one just out at the moment called DarkStar One, it seems to be in the same vein as Freelancer, so I may well get it considering how much I enjoyed Freelancer itself.

Post by **Edi** » 2006-08-30 11:54am

Ace Pace wrote:
Edi wrote:I should also add that as long as they make mission crafting and campaign tools available and easy to use, they can get a shitload of bang for buck, since good games tend to encourage user contribution, thus extending their shelf-life considerably.

Edi
Which you could say takes the wind out of making any other game, with FS2 still going strong years later and people showing no signs of giving up on it.

The reason nobody is giving up on it is that there really are no better alternatives around that I know of.

Edi

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-08-30 06:46pm

Yeah - FS2 only just got out before the shutdown, where almost all major releases are 'safe' genre products. The only game like Xwing etc that's been released in ages is the average Darkstar One, unless you count the X-games.

And really FS2 is a good example of why they're not made: it's good, it's got an updated version... and there are hardly Call of Duty-shaking numbers of people playing it. Easier to make money by releasing Medal of Honour: Explosion than trying to resurrect a genre.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2006-08-30 07:15pm

Yeah - FS2 only just got out before the shutdown, where almost all major releases are 'safe' genre products. The only game like Xwing etc that's been released in ages is the average Darkstar One, unless you count the X-games.

The shut down?

For some reason, I've noticed that since 2002, the computer games to hit the mass market in the genres that I prefer (simulation, business, city building) have, as a rule, not been particularly imaginative or enjoyable compared to how they used to be (with some exceptions, such as Chris Sawyer's Locomotion, Sim City 4 and The Sims 2). Was there some kind of industry-wide change that occured a few years ago, or what?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-08-30 07:36pm

Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. I couldn't give an exact date, but the change from the 80's-ish interesting, new relatively independent games of the 90s to the 'safe investment' games of 2000ish+ hasn't really been a good thing. But I guess there's easy money in RTSes and FPSes etc, so churning out Call of Duty: Patriot and Madden 2008 is more attractive than something riskier and more interesting. I don't know if it's officially recognised, but it's common fodder for discussion.

The niche sims have either become waaay niche (Flash really enjoyed things like Capitalism, but that sort of thing is either gone or instant bargain bin material now) or blanded-down for a wider audience. It's a shame, really - PC gaming used to be great for the more cerebral gamer, but as flash has become more of a seller than substance, that's changed.

montypython · Post by **montypython** » 2006-08-30 08:29pm

I just wish that a 3d equivalent of Rules of Engagement 2 would come out...

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2006-08-30 11:47pm

If it's not a dead genre, then it's on life support and the next of kin are considering pulling the plug. It's really frustrating for me too, because, like Mad, it's my favorite gaming genre. I enjoyed X2: The Threat, and X3: Reunion, but I don't really consider them space combat, because combat doesn't occur all that frequently. Freelancer was good, but it lacked some depth. I still have my Tie Fighter Collector's Edition CD-Rom and I'm going to try to get it going with DosBox one of these days. If any game deserves a remake with the latest graphics and sound technology, it's Tie Fighter, IMHO one of the best games ever, regardless of genre. I also plan to check out this DarkStar One game.

One thing about X3: it had some beautiful graphics. Maybe some talented modders can come up with a Tie Fighter or FS2 total conversion for it...

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-08-31 01:18am

It used to be that ALL Gamers were niche-gamers of some sort. Look at the trends of hot games. Back in the day, we kicked butt with X-COM, conquered stuff with Civ, flew the crap out of some Furballs in WC2, enjoyed running for our lives in System Shock and so on.

None of those would sell now, when people play Clickcraft: Korea Wars, Halo: Gamepad-Playability Evolved and the ever-popular RepetitionStrike.

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2006-08-31 03:18am

Kinda noticed that one as well. It used to be that I played all the hits because they were more cerebral stuff that I wanted to play. These days, it seems that most of my games are nieche titles even tho they are roughly the same genres as earlier.

More specific to space combat, I see that DSO is being mentioned. It is exactly a "maybe" game that Edi mentions. It won't revive the genre - its plot is tired and cliched (at least from what I saw in the demo), the gameplay is a trowback to too far back and overall it lacks soul, for lack of a better word, very similar to WC5 and X-Wing Alliance. It's too bad that Iwar2 scared off too many people with its physics since that is one game in the genre that came together excellently. Freelancer (and Starlancer), on the other hand, was a much better mass market attempt and with no more activity on the brand we see where that went.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2006-08-31 02:07pm

There's been a few genres that have more or less died, the point and click adventure is another. I remember playing the Lucasarts adventures and the Sierra Gabriel Knight ones. The last really great point and click was the European game, the Longest Journey.

Darkstar One isn't a bad game, but its got as many cons as it has pros. Freelancer at least felt like a living universe in some ways with each system having a fair number of planets/bases or even battleships.

There's too many FPS's, and I really think one other thing that hasn't helped is games like The Sims where there are expansion packs every week or so, or the latest update of sports games.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-08-31 07:56pm

Nephtys wrote:None of those would sell now, when people play Clickcraft: Korea Wars, Halo: Gamepad-Playability Evolved and the ever-popular RepetitionStrike.

You also forgot WoW-style MMORPGs. "Pay once to buy the game, pay a second time to play the game."

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-09-02 08:43pm

Space sims aren't dead. I hesitate to say they will die. However, they are hibernating. The market is largely pushing the concept of "simpler is better" and isn't focusing on the concept of making indepth quality space sims. Its not a good market strategy at the moment. When this might change is completely unknown.

Basicaly space sims are going to only get periodic releases by companies that want to temporarily delve into the genre.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-09-02 08:46pm

Alyeska wrote:Space sims aren't dead. I hesitate to say they will die. However, they are hibernating. The market is largely pushing the concept of "simpler is better" and isn't focusing on the concept of making indepth quality space sims. Its not a good market strategy at the moment. When this might change is completely unknown.

Basicaly space sims are going to only get periodic releases by companies that want to temporarily delve into the genre.

Mediocre console sims are still pretty common. I'm talking about the 'plays like Starfox or Rogue Squadron' type styled games. They usually aren't BAD, but just aren't so good.

Kids these days don't like awesome configs that use all your keyboard keys, and arming switches and other such coolness.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-09-02 09:30pm

Apparently Volition wants to make Freespace 3. The problem is they have become a console company. I fear any FS3 would be dumbed down. Story would be good but at the cost of loosing the gameplay we love.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-09-02 11:57pm

Alyeska wrote:Apparently Volition wants to make Freespace 3. The problem is they have become a console company. I fear any FS3 would be dumbed down. Story would be good but at the cost of loosing the gameplay we love.

It's more that Volition while being the devs, does not hold the license to produce freespace. The license was up for grabs I think in 2005, and Derek Smart nearly got it then, but since then, it's been very quiet.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2006-09-03 12:03am

And that's why I hope more developers follow the Kerberos example, and keep hold of their own IP rights. Here's to bitch-slapping the more leech-like publishers out there.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2006-09-03 12:17am

Speaking of Freespace, is Amazon my only hope of picking up a copy of this game? (Lost my origional long ago)

Back on topic however, we all know sooner or later some suit at Lucasarts is going to say "How about those X-wing games? Lets make another one of those."

And you know on that day that I will weep tears of joy... as long as someone even vaugly competant handles it.

Heck a graphic/sound updated X-wing VS Tie Fighter for $60? Sign me up! I miss those space-flight days.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2006-09-03 12:19am

Mr Bean wrote:Speaking of Freespace, is Amazon my only hope of picking up a copy of this game? (Lost my origional long ago)

I swear I post about this every few weeks.

No, FS2/FS1 nowdays are available free of charge, thanks to the FS2 EULA, the SCP and ports.

To aquire FS2/FS1 follow the following directions and say thanks.

download the torrent from here....Direct link 1.92GB torrent, now don't rush off and think thats it, unfortunatly, its not.

Patch A and patch B. It's painful since you just come in when the community is about to release totally new versions, but its only 3DLs in the end. After you get all that, unzip in the proper order(torrent, A,B) into some dictionary and working game. Configure the launcher and viola.

This gives you the following peices:
-Installer
-Freespace 2 full install
-Freespace 2 Cutscenes
-Freespace 1 Cutscenes
-Launcher 5.3
-3.6.8 Beta MediaVPs
-CVS Builds 4/25 which new loadout system
-DerelictSCP MOD (which Voices)
-FS_port 3.0.3 MOD
-Transcend Mod
-Awakenings 3.0 (which voices) and Destiny of Peace 3.0 campaigns inside fs_port 3.0.3 mod.
-Low-end 3D Shockwaves
-HTL Apollo for FS_port
-HTL Ursa
-HTL Moloch
-Lighspeed Nebula Pack

-3.6.8 Zeta MediaVPs
-May 17th CVS Build, Kara 4/29 CVS Build
-InfernoR1 Mod
-Sol: A History Mod
-HTL Elysium

-Launcher 5.4.1-pre
-3.6.8 Zeta MediaVPs and mp-170 fixs
-CVS Build 3.6.9 RC6
-CPR Valkyrie (high textures) for fs_port
-CPR Angel (high textures) for fs_port
-The "Freespace 2 Campaing not playable add-on for mods"

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

are space combat sim games a dead genre?

are space combat sim games a dead genre?

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