The economics of Wh40k

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

gravity wrote: Yes it is, one "super soldier" per *planet* (on average), where each plant has up to several hundred billion people, is *not* efficient no matter how much fanboy spin you put on it.
And? Do you realize just how damn difficult it is for a Space Marine to be created?
No it's not, religious opression and wasteful beaureaucray add up to a system where the potential of billions of people is almost completely wasted, and where innovation is almost completely stifled.
Or an innovator gets smashed by the chaos forces.
1 million planets, not 1 billion. And the constant warfare is at least partly their own fault; if they would learn to ally with the Eldar
That's a damn sight harder than you make it sound considering the Eldar are a punch of stuck-up arrogant pricks (anyone have that quote from the captured Eldar Ranger?) who don't give a good god-damn about any race but their own (hell one of their most revered leaders intentionally wiped out an entire sentient race, and a huge number of orks just to preserve one Eldar world).
and other potentially friendly races,
Like who? The only one of the 'major' races in 40K that is even remotely friendly are the Tau, and the Tau are dead set on expanding their own empire, including encroaching on the IoM.
rather than being culturally bigoted against them (this does apply both ways),
Not exactly easy considering that these people have been doing a good job at killing their people for centuries at the least (Tau) or Millenia in some cases.
they would be in a much more stable external situation, and if they dumped the religous dogma for a more scientific and rational approach to combatting Chaos influence, and to maintaing social order, they would probably have much greater internal stability.
You do realize that the belief in the Emperor is one of the things holding the damn place toghether right? And the Imperium devotes plenty of resources to maintaining order.
Skelron
Jedi Master
Posts: 1431
Joined: 2002-07-04 10:48pm
Location: The Web Way...

Post by Skelron »

gravity wrote: Yes it is, one "super soldier" per *planet* (on average), where each plant has up to several hundred billion people, is *not* efficient no matter how much fanboy spin you put on it.
A.) They do not recruit from every world... but wait thats inefficent right, if they recruited from every world for the Space MArines then it would be better? Correct, nope sorry the Inquistion does a similar thing to this, examaning all worldsfor Psycics, and the Inquistion is as efficent an organisation as exists... yet it can take a Generation for a black ark to cycle through it's worlds.... if they difd this with Marines it'd be as long and tying up resources, better to stick to a handful of worlds, that coincidently are proven to provide the needed qualties. (Or in the Spacewolves case insure your world provides those qualities...) Added is that the number of Marine Number's is kept artificially low, once bitten twice shy, when half the Super Soldiers go off and join the great enemy you kind of want a security against it happening again.

No it's not, religious opression and wasteful beaureaucray add up to a system where the potential of billions of people is almost completely wasted, and where innovation is almost completely stifled.
Reliogous oppresion, oh you mean the Emporer worship, yes in a way, except for a religious dictatorship it's quite open almost every world has it's different take on the faith, and as long as they fall within specfic boundry's (Such as the emporer has two arms not four, thats a clear sign of Genestealer taint) you'll find it's not so bad. And the fact that a Governer has unparralled self government. As long as they keep the Imperium laws, on such things as tithes, support for a Crusade, eradicating Xenos and Chaos Taints. and keeping the Psycker population under control a Governer has a great deal of freedom.
when you are talking about a Billion planet empire that has to tell with constant warfare, and internal problems that have to be dealt with for the sake of humanity....
1 million planets, not 1 billion. And the constant warfare is at least partly their own fault;
You may be correct, still the fact stands that this is a nit pick, a Million or a Billion doesn't really change my argument much so can we move past this point?
if they would learn to ally with the Eldar and other potentially friendly races, rather than being culturally bigoted against them (this does apply both ways), they would be in a much more stable external situation,
LOFLMAO Friendly species the Eldar yes thats right I'd see the Eldar as a friendly species!... You do know what the Eldar world for Humans means don't you? 'Mon-Keigh' = is the name Eldar use for Humans, it refers to a previous time when an unknown species held the Eldar as Slaves. This Brutal Barbaric race was wiped out, possibly by the Eldar when they rebelled, or possibly by an outside force that in the process of doing this freed the Eldar. When the Eldar use the term in for humans they are saying not only that Humanity is a similar species in mentallity to this one, but that they deserve the same fate.

The Eldar also view the creation of Ghaskall thraka and his Armageddon campaigns as a success because they saved a I think it was a Thousand, or ten Thousand Eldar, at the cost of millions of humans, small fry to them. This is the species you think the Imperium would be more efficent if they allied with them!!!!
and if they dumped the religous dogma for a more scientific and rational approach to combatting Chaos influence, and to maintaing social order, they would probably have much greater internal stability.
WHAT THE FUCK Rational approach to Chaos!!! What they should get a team of scientists together to stiudy the fundamental laws behind Chaos! Chaos has a few simple rules. The weak should not know about it, for in knowing they become tempted and will fall into it's power. ANY Human not strong willed enough sensibly avoids knowing anything more about Chaos than They go splat when I shoot them... not because of fear of the Imperium but more because it is at the cost of their being, Knowladge breeds Chaos. The Faith in the Emporer is THE ONLY THING holding the Humanity together, the sacriface of the lesser Psychics keeps the Astromecian going without which Warp travel would be next to impossible.
many go willingly to their deaths because of their faith.

The Faith in the Empoerer keeps the Soldiers fighting, keeps them sane at times. Despite this boards love of science in 40K there is such things as forbidden knowledge, the Emporer is a threat to Chaos why do you think even it's Dremon Princes hate and fear him!!! In the far future only the Emporer provides hope, Science would not because the weapons of Chaos are not Science, it's true weapon's are fear, and in Chaos's case the more you know the more you fear. apart from anything else Chaos is not Rational, so a Rational study is doomed to fail.
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
Skelron
Jedi Master
Posts: 1431
Joined: 2002-07-04 10:48pm
Location: The Web Way...

Post by Skelron »

PS, Sorry for ranting a bit, had to get it out my system, some of the What The fuck type comments may have been overboard... regretted them almost instantly after I pressed send.... DOH
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
Skelron
Jedi Master
Posts: 1431
Joined: 2002-07-04 10:48pm
Location: The Web Way...

Post by Skelron »

SylasGaunt wrote:
gravity wrote: That's a damn sight harder than you make it sound considering the Eldar are a punch of stuck-up arrogant pricks (anyone have that quote from the captured Eldar Ranger?) who don't give a good god-damn about any race but their own (hell one of their most revered leaders intentionally wiped out an entire sentient race, and a huge number of orks just to preserve one Eldar world).
.
The quote is something like this. (not word for word my Eldar Codex is my Flat in Nottinghma it's X-Mas Hols so I'm at home in Middlesbrough... strangely enough I can't go cjheck it out but this is pretty close I think.

'Eldred Ulthuren is the greatest of us, it was he that tried to warn your Emporer of the Treacherly of Horus but in his Arogance your Emporer ignored him, and almost doomed us all. For a Thousand years he has led us, even your own people have felt his subtle manipulations, although you did not realise it. It was he that led to us to kill the Ork warlord to prevent the Death of 10,000 Eldar and instead raise the one you call Ghaskall Thraka, WHo cares if Millions of your people died, better them than one Eldar.' As noted the exact wording and numbers may be out, but the essential gist is there, I think the noted arrogance of the Eldar Ranger, and the Thraka bit as well.
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
User avatar
starfury
Jedi Master
Posts: 1297
Joined: 2002-07-03 08:28pm
Location: aboard the ISD II Broadsword

Post by starfury »

didn't the eldar often ally with Chaos and their Dark cousins, the Dark eldar as well, no wonder the imperium fear and distrust them.
"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"-Joseph Stalin

"No plan survives contact with the enemy"-Helmuth Von Moltke

"Women prefer stories about one person dying slowly. Men prefer stories of many people dying quickly."-Niles from Frasier.
User avatar
2000AD
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6666
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:32pm
Location: Leeds, wishing i was still in Newcastle

Post by 2000AD »

starfury wrote:didn't the eldar often ally with Chaos and their Dark cousins, the Dark eldar as well, no wonder the imperium fear and distrust them.
To quote one of my friends "Are you smoking Crack?"

The Eldar would never ally with Chaos. Chaos is the ultimate enemy of the Eldar. They have the Spirit stones so that their souls are protected from the Chaos Gods.
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers Guild Sluggite Pawn of Chaos WYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sig EBC-Honorary Geordie
Hammerman! Hammer!
Enforcer Talen
Warlock
Posts: 10285
Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Enforcer Talen »

it was my impression that every group in war40k were genocidal maniacs.
Image
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
User avatar
Typhonis 1
Rabid Monkey Scientist
Posts: 5791
Joined: 2002-07-06 12:07am
Location: deep within a secret cloning lab hidden in the brotherhood of the monkey thread

Post by Typhonis 1 »

Well not ALL groups ratlings arent that bad :P
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,

I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
Enforcer Talen
Warlock
Posts: 10285
Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Enforcer Talen »

ratlings? I dont even remember the name. are they the imperium snipers? they still work for a regime that annhilates planets for thinking outside the religious box.
Image
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
Skelron
Jedi Master
Posts: 1431
Joined: 2002-07-04 10:48pm
Location: The Web Way...

Post by Skelron »

and the Eldar an't maniacs, no they are very calculating in their Genocide's....
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
Skelron
Jedi Master
Posts: 1431
Joined: 2002-07-04 10:48pm
Location: The Web Way...

Post by Skelron »

Enforcer Talen wrote:ratlings? I dont even remember the name. are they the imperium snipers? they still work for a regime that annhilates planets for thinking outside the religious box.
Halflings/Hobit's in space. Descended from humans in specific conditions, if they the Imperium defends them from the Galaxy ofcourse they work for them!
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
Enforcer Talen
Warlock
Posts: 10285
Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Enforcer Talen »

Skelron wrote:and the Eldar an't maniacs, no they are very calculating in their Genocide's....
so are the imperium. only heretics apply :roll:
Image
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Enforcer Talen wrote:it was my impression that every group in war40k were genocidal maniacs.
Well the Tau are the only ones I can think of who don't exterminate other races.. at least not in the fluff I've seen. Of course the Tau have their own agendas and are most definitely expansionist so it's not like their goody two-shoes themselves (though they are compared to everyone else ;) )
User avatar
Typhonis 1
Rabid Monkey Scientist
Posts: 5791
Joined: 2002-07-06 12:07am
Location: deep within a secret cloning lab hidden in the brotherhood of the monkey thread

Post by Typhonis 1 »

They only serve in support and sniper roles Ratlings do I mean
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,

I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Typhonis 1 wrote:They only serve in support and sniper roles Ratlings do I mean
Best cooks in the galaxy :)
Tatterdemalion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 348
Joined: 2002-07-25 10:52pm
Location: Sheffield UK

Post by Tatterdemalion »

What about the Jokaero? They seem pretty nice, in an idely-design-a-weapon-capable-of-destroying-entire-civilisations-between-bananas kind of way.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Enforcer Talen wrote:it was my impression that every group in war40k were genocidal maniacs.
[C'tan]But it's fun....

*Obliterates small civillisation*[/C'tan]
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
consequences
Homicidal Maniac
Posts: 6964
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:06pm

Post by consequences »

Originally posted by Enforcer Talen:
it was my impression that every group in war40k were genocidal maniacs.
You'd be a genocidal bastard if you lived in the 40k universe, or you'd be obliterated by the civilisations that were. Playing nice only works if you have overwhelming superiority, or every one else plays nice too. If not, then the biggest bastard wins.
Image
User avatar
white_rabbit
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2002-09-30 09:04pm

Post by white_rabbit »

IIRC, the Tau blasted a planet full of orks to hell..

so they aint nice and sparkly, no matter what propaganda they produce!
consequences
Homicidal Maniac
Posts: 6964
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:06pm

Post by consequences »

Yeah, but do orks qualify as sentient? That whole klingon question again.
Image
Enforcer Talen
Warlock
Posts: 10285
Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Enforcer Talen »

sentient? yes. they have language skills at the least.

smart? not really.
Image
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
User avatar
starfury
Jedi Master
Posts: 1297
Joined: 2002-07-03 08:28pm
Location: aboard the ISD II Broadsword

Post by starfury »

one site called them a more evolved form of fungus or plant :twisted:
"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"-Joseph Stalin

"No plan survives contact with the enemy"-Helmuth Von Moltke

"Women prefer stories about one person dying slowly. Men prefer stories of many people dying quickly."-Niles from Frasier.
Enforcer Talen
Warlock
Posts: 10285
Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Enforcer Talen »

from what I've read, they are. does it matter? they are still capable of language and the intelligence that is required for it.
Image
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
User avatar
white_rabbit
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2002-09-30 09:04pm

Post by white_rabbit »

Enforcer Talen wrote:from what I've read, they are. does it matter? they are still capable of language and the intelligence that is required for it.
Add to this the small matter of building Roks and gargants..

The Orks are clearly sentient, but the various breeds of orks are focused specifically on various paths of life.

a bit like the Eldar.

Meks..building shit
Orks..hitting shit
Grots...getting hit, and helping build shit
snots....shit
Squigs...getting eaten, eating, being hair, or stepping on shit
Docs...hurting/ "improving" shit
weemadando
SMAKIBBFB
Posts: 19195
Joined: 2002-07-28 12:30pm
Contact:

Post by weemadando »

consequences wrote:Yeah, but do orks qualify as sentient? That whole klingon question again.
Orks are a horde mind. Not a hive mind, a horde mind.

Collectively as a a WAAAAGH band they tally up to human level intellect.
Post Reply