Cairber wrote:A couple of books on chid raising have been brought to my attention because they, without a doubt, advocate child abuse. One such books is To Train Up a Child (Pearl). This book states:
"One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree. "
Other books like this are the "Babywise" series by Ezzo, which give parents advice such as "flicking the cheek" of a 6 month old who refuses to stop playing with their food in their heightchair. If they don't, you are to slap their hand and put them to bed or in their crib without food. His books are full of other examples.
Is it a violation of first amendment rights to ban these books from bookstores? would I be no better than a book burner to fight to get these books off shelves?
Do you think any form of hitting your kids is abuse? No matter what object you do it (or your hand) with or how lightly? I met a parent who thought that. I also worked with an EMT who told me, that spanking is acceptable illegal, most parents will feel bad about though.
Darth Wong wrote:One question: what kind of a fucking pussy hits his kid with a switch instead of his bare hand? What's the matter, your hand gets too sore if you hit your kid? Can't take the stinging pain?
Here's a principle from the justice system we use on adults: let the punishment fit the crime. The only time I use any kind of physical punishment on the kids such as spanking is when they use violence on each other. Violence is a fair punishment for violence. But to hit a kid for non-violent offenses or (as in the book's example) climbing the stairs? How is that justifiable, when there are so many other ways you can discipline a child?
I used to actually think that parents could hit you as hard as they wanted when I was a kid, that discipline was discipline, found out later they can't.
Darth Wong wrote:LadyTevar is apparently ignoring this thread now, but I think it's interesting to examine the mindset of the child abuse apologist. Unless someone is literally beating his child in public, how do you know whether he uses physical punishment? Do you walk up and ask him? Not likely. So the child abuse meme becomes self-perpetuating and self-reinforcing: when they see a bratty kid they assume his parents never use physical punishment on him, without inquiring to see whether this is truly the case. When they see a well-behaved kid they assume that his parents liberally used physical punishment to make him behave. And so every time they see a bratty kid or a well-behaved kid, they believe they are seeing more supporting evidence for their hypothesis.
The funny thing is that, as long as we're talking about personal anecdotes rather than the studies which are pretty much uniformly against the practice, I have observed that the few times I do see someone hitting his kid in public (thus proving beyond any doubt that this person uses physical punishment), the kid is rather bratty.
I once saw a kid in a store kicking his mother in the shin for not getting him what he wanted? I guess you might hit him back, as per your violence for violence policy.
I recall only one instance of getting hit as a child. There was a sick dog in the vicinity - staggering, drooling, growling - and me, being 4 or 5, was focused on "Doggy! Pet doggy!". I certainly wasn't listening to mom's frantic calls for me to come in the house. Mom, like a good parent, ran out, placed herself between me and the Potentially Dire Threat, and when she still couldn't get my attention/obedience, delivered an open-handed smack on the butt. Which got my attention then. Shocked the crap out me, in fact. But I stopped fighting her and she was able to drag me into the house and into safety.
I'd say that's probably an appropriate use of corporal punishment - this wasn't a situation where we could take a half hour to rationalize what was going on. There was a direct physical threat in the area. Mostly, she did it to break my focus and get my attention - which it did. Didn't leave a mark on me. That fact I had been so seldom (or never) hit before merely reinforced that this was NOT a typical situation and it was time for me to stop arguing.
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Mum smacked me and my sister as a kid, but only as a last resort - I can only actually remember the event once, but it certainly happened more than that. Dad was really against it, and in any case neither of them really needed to do it. They both had the dominant position - we were never really in doubt as to who was boss, despite our tantrums.
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Cairber wrote:A couple of books on chid raising have been brought to my attention because they, without a doubt, advocate child abuse. One such books is To Train Up a Child (Pearl). This book states:
"One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree. "
Other books like this are the "Babywise" series by Ezzo, which give parents advice such as "flicking the cheek" of a 6 month old who refuses to stop playing with their food in their heightchair. If they don't, you are to slap their hand and put them to bed or in their crib without food. His books are full of other examples.
Is it a violation of first amendment rights to ban these books from bookstores? would I be no better than a book burner to fight to get these books off shelves?
Do you think any form of hitting your kids is abuse? No matter what object you do it (or your hand) with or how lightly? I met a parent who thought that. I also worked with an EMT who told me, that spanking is acceptable illegal, most parents will feel bad about though.
I wouldn't say that I think every form of hitting is abuse. I can remember being slapped for talking back to my mother once, and i definitely agree that I deserved it. I, however, do believe that it is abuse to hit an infant in any way, shape or form (as well as witholding food from them- it is so important to feed on demand until 6 months of age).
I'm not sure where I stand on the issue once the child is 4 or 5. LIke darth said, there are so many studies showing how it negatively affects kids into their youth/teen/adult years. On the other hand, every parent I know claims that they didn't want to spank but ended up 'having' to. I really want to avoid that and use timeouts and other gentle discipline techniques. I guess I just fear being unsuccessful.
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Each person is entitled to thier opinon of what they think effective discipline is. I personally will never hit my children if I ever have any. Raising children includes teaching them how to behave. Anyone who advocates coporal punishment should at least phrase it correctly. Just replace "I spank, I slap, I use a switch...etc" with "I hit my child."
Its an accurate statement of what one is doing to their child. Because as far as I can tell, pretty much any form of corporal punishment involves an impact of some kind. Whether its with the hand or an implement of some kind. If a person can say comfortably that they hit their kids as discipline, then by all means...continue.
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My neice's parents will generally give her a hard slap on the hand if she's being particularily unruly.
I myself will very lightly tap her with a stern look on my face, which stops her misbehaving and makes her cry (I believe this is because she views me more as a friend than a parental figure).
I think either approach is good to let her know right from wrong, though I think any use of canes, rods, etc. is borderline abuse and would never think of doing it. Though I myself have been on the business end of a slipper or too back when I was a kid. My parents now admit they were wrong to discipline me that way, but back then it seemed like the right thing.
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My parents used to make me go outside and choose the "switch" that was to be used on me. I bled a few times. It had no bearing on my behavior. I was a troublemaker throughout elementary, middle, and part of high school. From the study that Mike posted a link to, maybe my depression was caused from being physically punished. I have been on antidepressants for more than 10 years.
I forgot to mention that I believe that it is time for me to discontinue the use of antidepressants, but my parents think otherwise. As long as I live in their house, I will take them.
Holy hell, reading this thread's sent chills down my spine. I always thought my parents were a bit harsh with the ordinary slapping for infractions, but LT is actually saying you should go beat your kid with a fucking branch off a tree?! That's mad. Being hit with a hand hurt enough (and I still feel were unjustified in several cases), but a paddle or branch? I can imagine myself in the far past being scared shitless over something like that. My parents being prepared to use a primitive tool to hit me with rather than just skin is one of the creepiest things I've ever considered.
That's so fucked up, really. Jesus.
As for the problem children, scallies and such, I think that violence would make me feel better, sure, but I don't think it would fix their problems. Their problems are more likely from inconsistent raising. If they're given a good routine, verbal warnings and the like, I think that'd be preferable to "do what I say, live in fear of doing bad things or I'll hit you with a stick".
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If I ever were to beat a hypothetical child of mine, it would be for some major infraction, and if I had done my job as a parent, the mere experience of being hit would be the real punishment, rather than the pain itself. Any corporal penalization should be so infrequent that it holds real significance to the child, and should never leave lasting damage. Most children don't actively seek such a reaction from parents, and will usually shape up afterwards.
Needless to say, using any form of weapon is absolutely unacceptable.
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Do you think any form of hitting your kids is abuse? No matter what object you do it (or your hand) with or how lightly? I met a parent who thought that. I also worked with an EMT who told me, that spanking is acceptable illegal, most parents will feel bad about though.
I feel that any form of physical "correction" is abuse and do not spank either of my two children. We use the "naughty chair" method and have found it superior to spanking.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Indeed, if you can properly discipline your child without spanking at all, you're probably a better parent for it. I would guess that good parents never even come across a situation where they might consider corporal punishment.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
wolveraptor wrote:Indeed, if you can properly discipline your child without spanking at all, you're probably a better parent for it. I would guess that good parents never even come across a situation where they might consider corporal punishment.
I used to spank but I was doing it out of anger and was hurting my son so we switched to the "naughty chair" method. We noticed a marked increase in good behaviour after the switch.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
