Elitism... is it Bad? Good? Ugly?

[Stofsk]

I mean the same one where Peter Parker grasped easily on the level of Octavius the theories behind his project...was by no mean an idiot, and is presented as an intelligent college student?

"Intelligent college student"? Might be.

No, is.

He's still a colledge student. He doesn't have any fucking credentials.

Doesn't matter. Spiderman has always been gifted with innate intelligence - he constructed webshooters and other devices using his own capabilities.

Spider-Man's "nerd" persona Peter Parker is actually one of the superheroes who does have a grasp of science - however, does he even care about it?

Given he's a science teacher at a high school? Not only does he care about it but he wishes to promote it to the younger generation.

He's saving the world from a scientist with his wank mutant powers, not his intellect.

His 'wank mutant powers' actually came as a result of a science experiment. Spiderman isn't some freak of nature - he got his powers through an accident of science, whether it be atomic science as in the original 1960's origin, or genetic engineering in the reimagined movies and 'Ultimate' alternate universe comic. He then uses his powers - and his intellect - to fight crime. Spiderman's first villains were cunning and intelligent, and he could only defeat them by outwitting them - using his own intellect.

The technology in Ocatvius' experiment wasn't presented as evil no matter how hard you want to try to say that it was

In the end, only the outcome mattered. The thermonuclear synthesis was presented as a Pandora's box which should not be opened, or else,

Because the experiment was flawed and Peter Parker could fucking tell that.

'The end is the only outcome that mattered' is bullshit. If it were true, we'd always skip to the last five minutes of any movie or play, or the last chapter of a book, or text. And even there you're fucked, because Otto had a change of heart at the end.

Otto Octavius didn't start out evil

Common theme. Little supervillains with intellect start out as inherently evil. Which doesn't change the fact they're presented as EVIL.

Wow. It's a common theme is it? That bad guys are bad, and do bad things? Shit, I didn't know that Stas. Thanks for telling me.

And one of the first superheroes was Batman - a forensic scientist and a detective who wasn't a dumbass.

Oh, got me. Point taken. Actually, Batman is indeed not a dumbass, one of the smartest characters from the whole "superhero" mansion. And he's also a normal human, not some sort of freak. Another one which comes to mind is X-men's Xavier...

Excuse me? Not some sort of freak? He's a normal human?

Batman is about as abnormal as you can get without going into supernatural powers. He's obsessed, physically trained in a variety of disciplines, some of them mystical, and he inherited his billion dollar empire. He isn't 'normal' by any stretch of the imagination.

Peter Parker on the other hand has normal, everyday problems plague him in the form of rent, keeping down a job, girls - this is in addition to his superhero problems and abilities.

It's interesting you comment favourably on Batman being a normal human and not a freak, and then end by complimenting Xavier as well... who is a freak - or rather, a mutant. I would have simply used the word mutant, but you're the one who used both words in conjunction earlier to describe Spiderman.

Tell me some issues where someone "knocks out" Hitler before the War started.

Why is that significant?

Perhaps I lack knowledge here. But it was June (or July?) 1939. And was anyone knocking Hitler out in comics?

Don't fucking roll your eyes at me like you're cute. Here's the picture of Captain America #1:



That whole period was rife with nationalistic "American superheroes defeat the Nazis and Japs" comics. YOUR point, which I was rebutting, was that a scientist was shown as a supervillain - you didn't provide a reference by the way - rather than the obvious real-world villains of Hitler and his Nazis. Except this was not the case, as I've just shown: Hitler was portrayed as a villain to be defeated by superheroes.

Actually Superman has a superior intellect too

Wasn't accented until lately, and generally isn't accented even now. What people want to see are superpowers, not intellect.

It was 'accented' all the fucking time, as early back as the Silver Age (thanks Degan).

Your rant is bogus.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

This is the same kind of attitude that makes people in the US think Science is a 'close minded elite institution', that are self-serving and soforth. I really don't think it's simple envy over success in some cases. An Ph.D typically makes less than a McDonald's manager. So what is it?

From what I have read of the US, a lot seems to have to do with politics and religeon, a 'them and us' attitude. In NZ, from my experience, a lot has to do with if said qualified person is perceived to be an arsehole or not, if they are smart enough to be a doctor or scientist, then good for them.

[K. A. Pital]

Ghost Rider

He grasped Otto's experiment well enough to tell him what was fucking wrong with it...

A college student grasps a thermonuclear synthesis experiment well enough to tell a known expert his flaws? You don't even see a problem with that attitude? If you don't, I concede. Parker used his intellect. Although the notion of a colledge student having a better understanding of the theory than an expert is ridiculous. As well as the fact that this theory obviously had to be rigorously tested by the scientific community before even trying to implement it in such sort of a grandeur experiment. It's flaws, if it had any, would be found by experts. Not by some colledge smartass.
Stofsk

Not only does he care about it but he wishes to promote it to the younger generation.

I meant the movie. He's not a teacher there, but rather a student, who is noting "flaws" in a theory of an expert.

Spiderman's first villains were cunning and intelligent, and he could only defeat them by outwitting them

The villain in the first movie struck me as kind of psycho.

Because the experiment was flawed and Peter Parker could fucking tell that.

That's exactly the problem. Scientists devise grandeur faulty experiments, where a teenager smartass can see flaws and then save the world from evil. And you didn't even care that Octavius' limbs A.I. was shown as a sentient machine with an evil will.

And even there you're fucked, because Otto had a change of heart at the end.

Oh... so, how is this relevant? It means that Otto was not the villain? Who was then? Evil machine - another luddism-reeking idea?

It's a common theme is it? That bad guys are bad, and do bad things?

NO. It's a common theme that intellectual villains do not start off as inherently bad. Only some brute-force villains like daemons, "forces of nature" and alike start out as inherently evil, destructive forces. The "mad scientist" stereotype usually starts out as good and gradually succumbs to evil in his quest for a scientific breakthrough.

Batman is about as abnormal as you can get without going into supernatural powers.

I meant precisely that Batman does not have supernatural powers or any sort of mutations that give him increased power, agility, or alike. Yes, he's trained, obsessive, et cetera. He's still a human. Not a "superhuman" or "spiderhuman".

then end by complimenting Xavier as well... who is a freak - or rather, a mutant.

Yes, X-men's Xavier IS a mutant. That doesn't change the fact that he's one of the smarter "heroes" out there.

Don't fucking roll your eyes at me like you're cute. Here's the picture of Captain America #1

I see. You fail to produce a per-War comic, which would cause me to concede, and instead try to show that "whole period was rife with nationalistic comics" - the whole World War II period - and the first supervillain came before that.

YOUR point, which I was rebutting, was that a scientist was shown as a supervillain - you didn't provide a reference by the way - rather than the obvious real-world villains of Hitler and his Nazis. Except this was not the case, as I've just shown: Hitler was portrayed as a villain to be defeated by superheroes.

Hitler was shown as a villain multiple times when he already started the war. The first supervillain, however, came before that, and he was not related to Hitler. And yes, my fault for not providing a reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Humanite

It was 'accented' all the fucking time, as early back as the Silver Age (thanks Degan).

Conceeded on Superman's science skills.

[Ghost Rider]

Ghost Rider

He grasped Otto's experiment well enough to tell him what was fucking wrong with it...

A college student grasps a thermonuclear synthesis experiment well enough to tell a known expert his flaws? You don't even see a problem with that attitude? If you don't, I concede. Parker used his intellect. Although the notion of a colledge student having a better understanding of the theory than an expert is ridiculous. As well as the fact that this theory obviously had to be rigorously tested by the scientific community before even trying to implement it in such sort of a grandeur experiment. It's flaws, if it had any, would be found by experts. Not by some colledge smartass.

And guess what dumbass?

OTTO AGREED WITH THE SENTIMENT. He would've brushed off experts the same way he did Peter given to him, this was everything, and there was no flaws...and for the first part there weren't.

Peter's entire problem was COULD HE CONTROL IT(Another thing you're conviently excluding because it makes the entire sentiment look in a whole different light), not whether or not would it fucking work or not.

And guess what dumbass?

I guess he fucking COULDN'T. This was demonstrated explicitly in the movies...oh wait, I'm guessing it kinda trumps the whole thought was Peter's concerns valid or not.

So ultimately your rant is that in a movie instead of going into a 20 man peer counsil they reduced the story to that Peter expressing concerns on control. Care to show how this was somehow shown as Peter going "You're a moron old man?"

Oh wait, that's why you made shit up and have shifted your goalposts...again?

[Darth Wong]

Am I the only one who thinks that this entire comicbook tangent has completely derailed this thread? If you want a really good example of mass-media propagating anti-scientific bullshit, try the movie "Jurassic Park".

As for the comicbook tangent, "Spiderman 2" is so goddamned stupid on so many levels that it's hard to accuse it of being anti-intellectual because that would imply that it was coherent enough to actually have a message.

[Ghost Rider]

Am I the only one who thinks that this entire comicbook tangent has completely derailed this thread? If you want a really good example of mass-media propagating anti-scientific bullshit, try the movie "Jurassic Park".

Eh, Stas wanted to rant and he doesn't like that people are refuting him. I'll be the first to admit, it's a complete tangent, and would glad to have anyone excise it since it has nothing at all to do with the thought of elitism.

And yes, Jurassic Park had only one good thing in it...dinosaurs.

As for the comicbook tangent, "Spiderman 2" is so goddamned stupid on so many levels that it's hard to accuse it of being anti-intellectual because that would imply that it was coherent enough to actually have a message.

The funniest part I still see, is that literally Spiderman 2 makes me honestly question where the fuck did they get the idea of Fusion=Portable sun. I mean the thing had flare up and spots. Which makes it saddesr given what the original concept of the character was, and how that made much more sense.

[K. A. Pital]

Ghost Rider
I'm second to admit this is a tangent, which was my fault, so I concede.

[Elfdart]

Also, this "EVIL SCIENTIST" bullshit that is often-touted in U.S. comics and blockbusters. Fucking repugnant. Where does that take root?

Uber-evil-scientific genius taking over the world with his mega-weapon-of-doom?

Why, just why? And these idiotic silly stories live on, and on, and on until now. I'm really amazed for how long can the comic and Hollywood subculture preserve this idiotic Luddism vestige!

The Mad Scientist is just a modern version of the Mad Wizard, which has been around forever. Both seek and gain power by meddling in Forces Man Was Not Meant To Fuck With. Kind of like the way Little Green Men From Outer Space (who kidnapped yokels, did weird things to them and turned them loose) are just a modern version of Leprechauns, Faeries and Elves, who kidnapped yokels, did weird things to them and let them go.

Part of the anti-elitism in the US is simply a tradition from the period after 1848 when all those overeducated Europeans came to America. Being educated was equated with being foreign and therefore "not truly American". That's also why you hear about things being dismissed because they are "un-American". I've never heard a Canadian say something was "un-Canadian" or a Greek say something is "un-Greek".

[Fashionable Nerfherder]

What I find amazing is the idea that the professionals who outside of the US would be lauded as intelligentsia (scientists, engineers, accomplished scholars, classically trained artists or literary figures, etc) are seen as snobbish, effete elites while morally bankrupt politicians and profiteering CEOs are seen as true societal heroes. And don't get me started about American pro atheletes.

Of course, some of this is due to expert emotional manipulation. "Down home" President Bush was born with just as much of a silver spoon in his mouth as Senator Kerry, but he's much better at pretending to be an everyman. Another good example is Bill O'Reilly - a guy who comes from an upper middle class background who went to all the right schools but pretends to be a working class local boy made good.

But part of the answer could also be that American society only values that which can be mass commercialized. Opera singers spend their lives training to develop the perfect voice and yet they will never get anywhere near the same social acclaim or salary as the next punk kid who wins American Idol. Plenty of American Olympic atheletes work long day-jobs on top of grueling training while steroid-pumping cry babies like Larry Bonds make millions in more "lucrative" sports. It's the same with science - people don't really care unless you can cure cancer or develop the perfect sports car or blow lots of stuff up on your Discovery Channel "Monster Lab" show.

[Darth Wong]

Bill Maher, with whom I sometimes agree and sometimes don't, once made a good point about American pop culture when he noted that it is obsessed with youth. And let's face it, youth culture is dumb: obsessed with sports, music, machismo, and action before analysis. So America's cultural obsession with youth is probably a direct contributor to its preference for anti-intellectualism.

[FSTargetDrone]

Physical prowess as with athletics being more admired than intelectual achievements is no surprise. Just look at how physical problems or illness are pitied, but mental illness is not always seen as legitimate--something you cannot see can be far more crippling than something you can.

[Agemegos]

The short story: elitism is good if you EARNED it but not if it was given to you for nothing.

Or perhaps the privileges of teh elite are good if the elite use them for social ends, and bad if they use them antisocially. Depending on whether you like to look forwards or backwards.