Hoth's ecosystem

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-06 03:47pm

It never struck me before, but as I was just looking through the ESB then-and-now comparison shots, I wondered about wampas.

Wampas appear to be fairly large endothermic carnivores. What exactly does Hoth's ecosystem and "food chain" look like? There doesn't seem to be much vegetation or sunlight, so where's all the energy come from to sustain such a large predator?
I suppose a related question would be the diet of the tauntauns.

Is some sort of fungus (well, plant life that does not rely on sunlight) that feeds on geothermal energy from heated cracks or hot springs possible?

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-06 03:51pm

Weren't Tauntauns imported by the Rebels? Or am I confused again?

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2006-09-06 03:53pm

It said in the book, The Illustrated Star Wars universe that tauntons feed on lichen that grows on exposed rock, and wampas feed on tauntauns.

Post by **Kuja** » 2006-09-06 03:53pm

Cao Cao wrote:Weren't Tauntauns imported by the Rebels? Or am I confused again?

No, they're native to Hoth as far as I know. The Rebels domesticated them when they realized they were having trouble adapting their machinery to the Hoth temperatures.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-09-06 03:54pm

From Starwars.com

Tauntauns are omnivorous, feeding on a type of fungus that grows just beneath the frost layer. They are known to eat meat when necessary, consuming smaller animals like ice scrabblers or Hoth hogs. They exude some of their waste products and oils through specialized ducts on their skin, giving them a very foul odor.

Looks like you guess right, fungus it is. And Hoth seemed like it got plenty of sunlight.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-09-06 03:54pm

The Wildlife of Star Wars describes Hoth's ecosystem in some depth, if I recall correctly. I believe it mentions that geothermal lichens grow in numerous underground ice cavern networks, in which several species of tauntauns live. The food chain is fairly direct; Lichen, Tautaun, Wampa. I don't recall many other major organisms being mentioned.

Bladed_Crescent · Post by **Bladed_Crescent** » 2006-09-06 04:20pm

In the Bounty Hunter series of comics, Aurra Sing goes to Hoth to track down a pirate in hiding; there she encounters a subeterranean predator - a 'dragonslug', I believe. So there's at least one other major form of life there.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-06 04:45pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Looks like you guess right, fungus it is. And Hoth seemed like it got plenty of sunlight.

Lucky guess, figured it had to be like the mini ecosystems on our ocean floor on Earth.
I assumed since Hoth's surface was so cold, the intensity of solar radiation (infrared, visible, UV) reaching its surface would be low. Might be wrong.

Noble Ire wrote:The Wildlife of Star Wars describes Hoth's ecosystem in some depth, if I recall correctly. I believe it mentions that geothermal lichens grow in numerous underground ice cavern networks, in which several species of tauntauns live. The food chain is fairly direct; Lichen, Tautaun, Wampa. I don't recall many other major organisms being mentioned.

Ah, the tauntaun's food source is in geothermally heated caves. That makes a lot of sense.. the tauntauns don't seem to be able to survive blizzards and the cold nights (or the combination thereof). So their natural dens and shelter from the deadly weather are also where their food grows.

Anyone have any idea how Tatooine's atmosphere maintains its oxygen levels, and what those big banthas eat?

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2006-09-06 05:57pm

I recall the novelasation mentioning that at the edges of the continents there is alot of vegitation, also there's vegitation around oasis (plural for this?)

An also in caves.

Edit: Tatoonie I mean not Hoth.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-09-06 09:40pm

The Illustrated Star Wars Universe commented on the Wampa's food source; it said that they can wander more than 100 km in search of food. I don't know how well that works out for a warm-blooded creature of the Wampa's size, but they seem to eat the Tauntauns down to the bone, so they might have significant fat reserves.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-09-06 10:15pm

According to the "Wildlife of Star Wars: A Field Guide" the majority of life on hoth thrives in the geothermal caves, where fifteen separate species of tauntaun thrive on lichens and mosses, and are in turn fed on by wampas.

Also, according to the Guide, Banthas are indigenous to Tatooine, which contradics just about every other EU source, so take it all with a grain of salt.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-09-07 09:14am

Also, according to the Guide, Banthas are indigenous to Tatooine, which contradics just about every other EU source, so take it all with a grain of salt.

It could easily be retconned to suggest that Banthas were introduced to the Tatooine ecosystem so long ago that they have established themselves as an integral part of it, and that there Bantha species unique to Tatooine through the evolutionary process.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-09-07 10:52am

If Tatooine was settled early in the current galactic civilization's 25,000 year history, I suppose it's possible an introduced beast of burden might have adapted through natural selection.

Can someone confirm the areas of heavy vegetation on Tatooine? I would think that if there were such areas, settlements would have formed near those areas, instead of the rocky badlands and deep desert. Unless, of course, the settlements were mining towns at some time.. then I guess they'd be placed around old mineral deposits.

Still, if I were a farmer, I'd be farming near wherever it is that banthas get their food, as opposed to moisture farming in the deep desert.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-09-07 11:35am

Cykeisme wrote:If Tatooine was settled early in the current galactic civilization's 25,000 year history, I suppose it's possible an introduced beast of burden might have adapted through natural selection.

Can someone confirm the areas of heavy vegetation on Tatooine? I would think that if there were such areas, settlements would have formed near those areas, instead of the rocky badlands and deep desert. Unless, of course, the settlements were mining towns at some time.. then I guess they'd be placed around old mineral deposits.

Still, if I were a farmer, I'd be farming near wherever it is that banthas get their food, as opposed to moisture farming in the deep desert.

Tales from Mos Isley seemed to indicate that Tatooine had once had abundant vegetation, though I don't believe any large-scale areas still exist.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-09-07 11:59am

Hoth must have some kind of ecosystem, because it has an oxygenated atmosphere. If I recall correctly, there's open ocean in the tropics; aquatic algae would provide a lot of oxygen, just as it does on Earth.

However, the idea that tauntauns are not only native to the planet, but live on the ice cap and eat lichens, and were "domesticated" by the Rebels in however many months they were on the planet, is pure idiocy. I could see tauntauns as filling the same niche musk oxen do on the tundra in the warmer latitudes (and wampas taking the role of polar bears), but anyone who writes that tauntauns live off lichen in ice caves is an imbecile. Quick: how many large animal species are supported by the interior of Antarctica, after evolution having had 30 million years to adapt a species to that environment? How about Greenland? On apline glaciers?

The first time I saw ESB I was maybe 10, and the first thing I thought when I saw the tauntauns was "Hmm, they must have brought those with them." How is it that that revelation is too much for people actually getting paid to write this?

Bladed_Crescent · Post by **Bladed_Crescent** » 2006-09-07 12:36pm

...but anyone who writes that tauntauns live off lichen in ice caves is an imbecile. Quick: how many large animal species are supported by the interior of Antarctica, after evolution having had 30 million years to adapt a species to that environment? How about Greenland? On apline glaciers?

The Arctic caribou's main food source during winter is rock lichen, which they find in areas not completely covered by snow and ice (boreal forests). The tauntauns feed primarily on lichens found in areas not completely covered by ice and snow - warm caves.

Each caribou eats about 3 kg of lichen a day, so it's not impossible for a large animal to live off it for an extended period of time.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-09-07 12:52pm

As for the Wampas and Tauntauns being pretty big, large animals handle extreme cold temperatures better than small animals.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-09-07 01:02pm

If tauntauns are part of the Hoth ecosystem and are preyed upon by wampas, then they have a large natural predator after them and --as part of their adaptation-- would be quite flighty and and therefore just about undomesticatable. It's the same reason no one has domesticated the zebra.

There's no way that the Rebels could tame such flighty creatures even after a few short years; it would take generations of selective breeding to remove the flightiness from them and make them acceptible mounts. That Rebels are able to use them as mounts even when they're on the run from the Empire indicates that feral tauntauns are very naturally docile and calm (an assertion not supported by the fact that wampas prey on them as a matter of course), or tauntauns have been imported by the Rebels, and the wampa we see is being opportunistic.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-09-07 01:21pm

Bladed_Crescent wrote:
...but anyone who writes that tauntauns live off lichen in ice caves is an imbecile. Quick: how many large animal species are supported by the interior of Antarctica, after evolution having had 30 million years to adapt a species to that environment? How about Greenland? On apline glaciers?
The Arctic caribou's main food source during winter is rock lichen, which they find in areas not completely covered by snow and ice (boreal forests). The tauntauns feed primarily on lichens found in areas not completely covered by ice and snow - warm caves.

Each caribou eats about 3 kg of lichen a day, so it's not impossible for a large animal to live off it for an extended period of time.

Boreal forests, which are not ice cap. If the EU said tauntauns were native to boreal forests on Hoth, I'd have no problem with it (it would even make sense, considering these supposed ice-cap inhabitants freeze to death in their own habitat).

Lichen is photosynthetic. How precisely is it supposed to grow in caves to being with? It's also slow-growing. The EU describes herds of the things living in caves. Unless the caves are enormous, they'd eat themselves into starvation rapidly. Reindeer avoid this problem by eating in boreal forests, which have a much larger available food supply, and constantly migrating. They also switch to other food as soon as it's available, relieving pressure on the lichens so they can regrow.

Of course, there's a problem with the whole "warm caves" idea to begin with. Glacial caves are possible, formed by local melting inside a glacier, but they're temporary. No glacial cave would exist long enough for any kind of life to evolve in it. A geothermal warm spot could permanantly melt part of the ice in one location, which happens in parts of Antarctica, but that spot would be filled with water.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2006-09-07 02:09pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Tales from Mos Isley seemed to indicate that Tatooine had once had abundant vegetation, though I don't believe any large-scale areas still exist.

From the ITW books, Tatooine has only one percent surface water, and it totally uninhabitable except for a small relatively "cool" spot in the northern hemisphere.

Bladed_Crescent · Post by **Bladed_Crescent** » 2006-09-07 02:13pm

Lichen is photosynthetic. How precisely is it supposed to grow in caves to being with? It's also slow-growing.

Fair enough, but for all we know these particular lichen are chemosynthetic, living off the gases carried up through the vents. On Earth we have entire ecosystems based around chemosynthetic bacteria, so a similar process on an alien world isn't too far removed from possibility. Nor is the tauntauns themselves being migratory, moving from one cave to another. There are rock caves on Hoth, so my guess is that those are the populated ones.

Ah, anyways - after tearing the house apart for it, I finally found The Essential Guide to Alien Species. Right in plain sight.

Anyways:

Tauntauns are omnivorous, but feed mostly on a type of fungus that grows just beneath the forst layer

So it's not just lichen in caves, but these fungii as well.

And on the subject of training that Wyrm brought up:

Because of their foul tempers, the Rebel Alliance had some initial difficulty training them as mounts. General Carlist Rieekan, however, discovered a good way to ge tthrough their obstinance to have them perform well in this regard.

...because these beasts feel that they always need to compete, we needed to eliminate competion. Therefore the wranglers made sure to bring in only females to be trained as mounts....

After this, we kept them warm and fed and gave them pieces of mook fruit every time they performed correctly. They adapted quickly to our needs and proved valuable scouting transportation while our speeders were still being adapted to the cold.

Bladed_Crescent · Post by **Bladed_Crescent** » 2006-09-07 02:15pm

Edit: Dammit, I forgot Cpl. Kendall's post above about the tauntauns being omnivorous and feeding on fresh frosty fungus frequently.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-09-07 03:33pm

Bladed_Crescent wrote:And on the subject of training that Wyrm brought up:

Because of their foul tempers, the Rebel Alliance had some initial difficulty training them as mounts. General Carlist Rieekan, however, discovered a good way to ge tthrough their obstinance to have them perform well in this regard.

...because these beasts feel that they always need to compete, we needed to eliminate competion. Therefore the wranglers made sure to bring in only females to be trained as mounts....

After this, we kept them warm and fed and gave them pieces of mook fruit every time they performed correctly. They adapted quickly to our needs and proved valuable scouting transportation while our speeders were still being adapted to the cold.

Uh, no. This does not address the issue I brought up. It's not obstinence that would keep tauntauns from being good mounts if they are Hoth natives, it's their flightiness... a different thing. An obstinate creature would refuse to follow commands. A flighty (skittish) creature would break into a panicked run at the slightest sign of danger. The tauntuan that stuck around to see if that shift in the snow was really a wampa would be wampa food, while his anxious cousin who didn't stick around to find out gets to pass of his anxiety onto his children.

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2006-09-07 03:43pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Tales from Mos Isley seemed to indicate that Tatooine had once had abundant vegetation, though I don't believe any large-scale areas still exist.
From the ITW books, Tatooine has only one percent surface water, and it totally uninhabitable except for a small relatively "cool" spot in the northern hemisphere.

The implications in Knights of the Old Republic was that Tatooine had at one point been a slave-world of the Rakata empire, and it would not be unlikely for their terraforming technology to have been used extensively to remodel it's terrain and eccology. According to Wikippdeia, the oceans were evaporated in a Rakata bombardment durring the death throes of the infinate empire. This bombardment also fused most of the planet's topsoil into glass which later became the sands of its deserts. SOMEHOW the common ancestors of the Jawas and Sandpeople survied this holocost.
All that water had to go somewhere, so unless the Rakata took it away (Palpitine did this once, pumping oceans into ships until the planet went dry.) we should probably assume that since the destruction was not a true BDZ, most of the water is still there, prehaps trapped in the upper atomosphere. This seeems more than a little silly, because if all the water was still there, then it would be fairly easy to get it back onto the planet's surface. So we should backtrack and accept that the Rakata were bastards and stole all the water.
As for what keeps the planet oxygenated, I wouldn't rule out some kind of very slow living algae equivelent in the sand or the air itself. Life finds the strangest places to thrive sometimes.

Bladed_Crescent · Post by **Bladed_Crescent** » 2006-09-07 03:44pm

Sorry; but you brought up the fact that the Rebels would have a hard time domesticating/training them. I was just supplying information about that. I wasn't arguing "flightiness" or what have you, just that the Rebels had done obviously it with the indigenous tauntauns.

Given that they are said to be foul-tempered and aggressive, they could be like boars then zebra - more likely to attack an intruder than to flee. i.e. their most common defensive measure is spitting into an opponent's eyes. In Hoth's temperature, the saliva freezes very quickly, blinding their foe.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that whatever their character traits, they obviously didn't get too much in the way of the Rebels training them as mounts.