Who here is actually going to be jumping into Vista?

[Vendetta]

I have an Xbox, PS2, Gamecube, Xbox 360, N64, and DS. I realised that I simply wasn't playing PC games any more, because I can't play them from the comfort of my sofa.

[White Haven]

How do you think Dell gets their prices so low? They cut corners everywhere, from cheapass parts to even cheaper-ass warranty service to nonexistent tech support. The only thing they DO spend money on is getting the aforementioned cheapass parts tweaked just far enough that they're incompatible with standard replacement parts (especially motherboards and cases), and they only spend money on that because it makes their poor, gullible customers buy rediculously-overpriced replacement parts directly from them. Ninety dollar 250W power supply? Check.

Such unbelievable shitbags.

[Cao Cao]

I always hear accusations that Dell uses substandard parts being thrown around, but I never see any proof.

[His Divine Shadow]

I am going to be jumping into OS X so I doubt I'll use Vista.

[Darth Wong]

I always hear accusations that Dell uses substandard parts being thrown around, but I never see any proof.

Mind you, most of the local system builders do the same thing with a lot less polish, which is perhaps why Dell doesn't suffer in terms of reputation. Go to any local system builder who's selling a budget system and look at the components in that box. Shit hooked up to shit. If you can find a good local system builder who exclusively uses quality components, you'll get a better computer than a Dell.

I still remember when they used to charge around 4 times the market rate for RAM upgrades, and people would pay it because they simply assumed that Dell used a special superior brand of RAM. I knew some managers who insisted that you couldn't use other brands of RAM with a Dell computer or it might "damage the motherboard". I guess people got wise to this bullshit, because they've since lowered their costs for RAM upgrades. But I still remember that scam.

[Uraniun235]

Dell can get parts cheaper because they can order them in such vast quantities. Bulk pricing.

I still remember when they used to charge around 4 times the market rate for RAM upgrades, and people would pay it because they simply assumed that Dell used a special superior brand of RAM. I knew some managers who insisted that you couldn't use other brands of RAM with a Dell computer or it might "damage the motherboard". I guess people got wise to this bullshit, because they've since lowered their costs for RAM upgrades. But I still remember that scam.

It won't damage the Dell, but there's a possibility it won't boot up.

At work we had a ton of these older GX50 (~1 GHz Celerons) Optiplex computers that we wanted to bump the RAM on (from 128) so that they'd be usable in XP, so we ordered a a bunch of RAM for them. Correct type, correct speed... we put it in, computer won't boot, won't display anything. Take it out, computer works fine. Transplant RAM from another Dell to increase the memory, computer works fine.

I guess it's possible that it might work with RAM with the exact same timings as the Dell-provided RAM, but even then it was still really frustrating to have bought a bunch of RAM only to let it sit around because Dell likes to fuck around with this sort of shit. There's also the infamous proprietary motherboard power connectors where replacing the motherboard or the power supply with non-Dell parts used to result in a dead motherboard.

[Darth Wong]

I've added non-Dell RAM to Dell computers before. They were Dimension machines; maybe the Optiplexes have a trickier motherboard. But yes, I remember the nonstandard power supplies; very frustrating when you have to get a replacement power supply from Dell and wait for the goddamned thing to arrive in the mail while you could just drive 5 minutes to a computer store and pick up a new power supply if you had a different vendor's machine.

Of course, they still can't hold a candle to Compaq, which was the original king of nonstandard bullshit. Hell, they even had their own proprietary hard drive interface connectors at one point.

[Sharp-kun]

I'll at least try it when its released, since I'll get a free copy of "Ultimate" from Uni.

[General Zod]

I always hear accusations that Dell uses substandard parts being thrown around, but I never see any proof.

I found one article that claims Dell switches about some of the wiring on their motherboards. So that their motherboards work just fine on Dell products, but anything else will cause problems. source. (relevant part below).

The Dell Dilemma


Today's computer manufacturers have standardized on the ATX format for computer power supply units. Or have they? Starting in September 1998, Dell began a manufacturing program that has created (and continues to create) problems for users seeking to replace or upgrade their Dell desktop computers. At first glance, both the power supplies and motherboards in the Dimension line of desktops look like normal ATX-style equipment. The power connectors are the familiar keyed connectors we've grown accustomed to, as are the 12V connectors used for fans and other devices.

Yet appearances are deceiving and dangerous to your hardware's health. For reasons known only to Dell, the company decided to make alterations to the wiring harness, as well as the motherboards they ship. If you examine closely the wiring that plugs into the connectors, you'll find that Dell has reversed several wires. If you're using a Dell brand (or Dell-supplied) power supply and motherboard, you shouldn't have any problem, as the Dell motherboards expect this wiring arrangement.

However, if you try to replace your Dell power supply with a non-Dell replacement, you may severely damage your motherboard because the replacement power supply would send the wrong currents to your system. The converse is also true: If you replace your Dell motherboard with a non-Dell approved motherboard, you'll probably end up with a damaged motherboard. In either case, you also risk damaging the power supply, and some users have even reported experiencing fires in their computers when using a non-Dell motherboard or power supply.

We don't know why Dell decided to use proprietary hardware when most computer manufacturers have embraced the ATX standard for motherboards and power supplies, but if you find you need to replace your power supply, be sure that you use either a Dell brand power supply or one that is compatible. PC Power & Cooling (http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com) make excellent replacement power supplies for approximately $90.

Also, if you google for faulty capacitors, you'll find numerous complaints regarding capacitors made using inferior production techniques, resulting in a number of bad motherboards that Dell winds up purchasing for their machines.

[Cao Cao]

Yeah there is evidence for their retarded "only buy upgrades from us" policy.
Still I've never had major problems with Dell for years, though again I can only speak from where I live. Maybe it's another case of having to be better in the EU.

Big companies get away with too much crap. So says Captain Obvious.

[Praxis]

That's why I bought an Apple. I don't want to bring my work home.

But what if you want to play games?

My answer is somewhat similar to Vendetta's- I realized that I'm playing the consoles more and more and the PC less and less and top-notch graphical power isn't that important to me. I'm running a Geforce FX 5200 slightly overclocked and not bothered by it on my PC.

An iMac has a Radeon X1600, and with Boot Camp that would *far* outperform my current desktop rig. I don't demand top-of-the-line graphics (X1600 is fine, I don't need an X1900XT), I just demand playability, and I can run all my existing games in Boot Camp, so I'm fine.

Now I just have to raise money for an iMac, since I'm getting a MacBook first.

[White Haven]

Typical Dell crap:

1) Case constructed so that a power supply with a physical power switch (Most average-to-good power supplies) will physically not fit in teh case, short of cutting a hole through it.

2) Case designed by retarded monkeys in general. Yes, it's subjective, but whoever thought it was 'cool' to make your case hinge open at the front apparently didn't consider that if you put two IDE drives on one channel in a case that opens that way, you can't open the case all the way without disconnecting the slave drive, or ripping the cable off the motherboard.

3) Case designed with a single custom ribbon-cable that unifies power switch, power LED, HDD LED, front USB, and sometimes other functionality into a single connector. Motherboards designed to accept same. They do this on almost all of their modern systems, which means that if you have a bad board, you also need to replace the case. IT's not just a matter of rewiring a box-type connector, either...it's actually different-sized pins, and an actual ribbon cable connector.

4) 'On-site service' that consists of a guy who comes out on-site, looks at the system, and says, 'Yep, ship it back to Dell.'

5) Motherboards that require custom power connectors, and power supplies to match. In all fairness, they've gotten away from this in the last few years, but it's still a fucking obnoxious legacy.

6) And, of course, the infamous 90-day warranty that many ot their systems carry.

There're a host of smaller annoyances, but those are some of the biggies that I see in my work as a brick-and-mortar technician. As to the allegation of substandard parts, that's not something that I can prove, but more a gut feeling from the number Dells with hardware problems that come through my shop. No hard numbers there, so I won't make an issue of it.

And their laptops explode, but that's on Sony, not them.

[Darth Wong]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most computer equipment is quite reliable nowadays, even if it's off-brand low-end stuff. Case in point: I have two BENQ computer monitors: one tube and one LCD. And both of them have been rock-solid reliable even though it's a crap brand name.

Some stuff is better, but even the crap is really not that bad. I can completely believe that Dell QC might be going down the tubes but people still buy Dells and they work fine for years. It's just the incidence of lemons that will increase, and those will be dismissed as outliers.

[White Haven]

There's crap, and then there's crap. It's one thing if I grab an MSI video card or a Maxtor hard drive. Those aren't the best brands in their fields, but not the worst. If I'm running a Toshiba or Samsung hard drive on an Elitegroup motherboard...that's another story. At the low end, the things that suck....REALLY suck. There's just a lot of people in the mid-end, and the price difference between low and mid isn't wide enough for the really low-end stuff to be attractive.

[Lazarus]

Depending on what price I can find it for, I'll try and get Vista ASAP, but since this is technically my Dad's computer, I may have a bit of trouble with that. As of now, I'm not aware of any reason why I, personally, shouldn't upgrade at the earliest opportunity; I will have to eventually, so why wait?

[Arrow]

I really want a lot of the under-the-hood changes in Vista. DX10, improved driver model, user rights/security, etc. I also want the new interface and I want to try out the new email client and IE 7. I'm going to wait a month or two to see if Vista has any truly critical flaws, and assuming it doesn't, I'm going to get it. I'm thinking of dual booting with XP, just to be on the safe side. I'll more than likely install the 64-bit version; I expect third party 64-bit drivers to be on par with 32-bit XP drivers by then.

[phongn]

But Dell consumer laptops are crap ...

That may be, but this is my free laptop:

Small laptop, IBM X41

I hate you (just like I hate you for your PIX). Then again, I'm seriously considering getting a T60 via my brother's academic discount.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most computer equipment is quite reliable nowadays, even if it's off-brand low-end stuff. Case in point: I have two BENQ computer monitors: one tube and one LCD. And both of them have been rock-solid reliable even though it's a crap brand name.

BenQ = Acer, which AFAIK has usually been a decent name .

There's crap, and then there's crap. It's one thing if I grab an MSI video card or a Maxtor hard drive. Those aren't the best brands in their fields, but not the worst. If I'm running a Toshiba or Samsung hard drive on an Elitegroup motherboard...that's another story. At the low end, the things that suck....REALLY suck. There's just a lot of people in the mid-end, and the price difference between low and mid isn't wide enough for the really low-end stuff to be attractive.

I've also considered Toshiba and Samsung hard drives to be quite good. ECS, well, that's crap, but most HD manufacturers are pretty decent.

I really want a lot of the under-the-hood changes in Vista. DX10, improved driver model, user rights/security, etc. I also want the new interface and I want to try out the new email client and IE 7. I'm going to wait a month or two to see if Vista has any truly critical flaws, and assuming it doesn't, I'm going to get it. I'm thinking of dual booting with XP, just to be on the safe side. I'll more than likely install the 64-bit version; I expect third party 64-bit drivers to be on par with 32-bit XP drivers by then.

The new audio stack on Vista looks quite interesting - per-application volume control and built-in normalization look to be very nice things.

[Durandal]

That's why I bought an Apple. I don't want to bring my work home.

But what if you want to play games?

Well, there are a couple interesting products on the horizon. One of them, called Cider, is basically a specialized WINE that PC game developers can use to build a "Mac" version of their games. This Mac version would actually be a Windows executable, but linked against the specialized WINE and wrapped up in a standard Mac OS X executable. Developers could basically use it to make a Mac version within a couple weeks of the game's release because there wouldn't be any changes to the source required.

Now, they could also branch the game and create a Windows executable that is optimized for the special WINE libraries on OS X. But if they kept the same build for both, you could simply apply patches released for the Windows version to the OS X version. Really, since Macs are on x86 now, this seems like the way to go for game porting. Having to take over a year to port a game that will sell maybe 50,000 copies just doesn't make sense. It's always been a razor-thin profit margin.

My only concern with this approach is size. If every game comes with its own set of WINE libraries the executable is linked to, each game install would end up being fucking massive. But then again, there are probably certain libraries in WINE that won't change from game to game. The only changes that would be made from game to game are probably things in DirectX. So game install sizes will definitely be bigger, but probably well worth the time savings. There'll be a framerate hit too, but it can be minimized by each individual developer at the library level, which will help a lot. Supposedly, the first Cider game for OS X will pop up this October.

There are other things like CrossOver on OS X, which I believe has promised Half Life 2 support.

[SeeingRed]

That's why I bought an Apple. I don't want to bring my work home.

But what if you want to play games?

Name one game that I couldn't play on my computer if I went out and bought a Mac today. True, there are some games that are windows-only, but Mac ports are becoming more and more prevalent (and the time-to-port becoming much shorter) for many of these games. And, of course, if there's that one game that you just CAN'T find for OS X, you can simply install Windows (natively or via virtualization, take your pick) and play it there.

And, of course, since Macs are so ridiculously overpriced, Mac users routinely plunk down hundreds of dollars in "Apple taxes", so paying the extra $120 or whatever it is for an XP license should be chump change for them, right? </sarcasm>

I'm sorry, the "but the games!" argument against Macs doesn't hold water anymore (not that it ever held much...)

[Praxis]

Name one game that I couldn't play on my computer if I went out and bought a Mac today.

While I fully agree with your entire post, I just want to point out one thing; the reason that most of the games that aren't available for Mac aren't available, is one simple reason: Havok.

A few big name games (Age of Empires 3, Half-Life 2) use the middleware Havok physics engine. The makers refuse to make a Mac port, which means any game that use Havok physics can't be ported. Most of the missing big-name titles out there are because of Havok.

Still, an Age of Empires 3 port is still coming- the porters are putting a different physics engine in there.


To quote:
http://www.insidemacgames.com/features/view.php?ID=351

Today's second biggest threat to a healthy Mac gaming market is Havok (piracy, in case you were wondering, is the first), the physics game engine used by popular games such as Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault, Halo 2, and oh yes, Half-Life 2. In at least a few cases, a few Mac ports have been shelved because of a lack of a Mac version of Havok. Ever wonder why Deus Ex 2 never made it to the Mac? Havok. To make matters worse, upcoming games such as Age of Empires III and HellGate and possibly dozens of other games will be using Havok.

It takes no genius to see that the Havok problem is now dire. So, what exactly is said problem? Why isn't Havok available for the Mac? As you might expect, it comes down to money. According to industry sources, the folks at Havok want a six figure dollar amount for Havok Mac. The issue, of course, is that there's no way any Mac game publisher could afford this, especially when you consider that the Mac publisher has to pay a PC publisher the rights for a game. Imagine having to pay $50,000 for the Mac rights to a title, then having to turn around and pay $150,000 just to have Havok on the Mac (my dollar figures are just examples, folks, I don't know the actual numbers).

Ok, now here's the worst part of it. According to my sources, the Havok code is already available on the Mac. That's right. It's pretty much ready to go. Havok just needs to get paid. The issue at hand, it seems, is the amount of money Havok wants for their precious physics code.

Other than Havok-related games, most games have Mac versions. Boot Camp works for the few that don't But just about every game I play has a Mac version.

you can simply install Windows (natively or via virtualization, take your pick) and play it there.

None of the Mac virtualization software available today uses the graphics card, so you have to do it natively.

[Lisa]

I probably won't be going with vista unless it's free to me or I decide to switch back to MS and buy a different computer. Anything I have that requires windows will work on the OS machines I have now.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most computer equipment is quite reliable nowadays, even if it's off-brand low-end stuff. Case in point: I have two BENQ computer monitors: one tube and one LCD. And both of them have been rock-solid reliable even though it's a crap brand name.

I wouldn't consider Benq an off brand, being that they're Acer's spin off. Great stuff though, have a wireless keyboard/mouse combo that cost less then most wireless mice and works really well. I like it better then the Logitech one I bought just recently. Decent windows driver support too, they have xp drivers for my acer scanner even though it was made before xp was released.

Some stuff is better, but even the crap is really not that bad. I can completely believe that Dell QC might be going down the tubes but people still buy Dells and they work fine for years. It's just the incidence of lemons that will increase, and those will be dismissed as outliers.

Dell's still riding on their techsupport laurels of years ago even though they only use those call centers for corperate support now. When I did Canadian Dell support the two most common calls were nuke and pave (easier then actually fixing anything software related) and on new systems reseating the pci cards because they came loose in shipping.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

I'll probably get it just because its gonna be cheap (my college is gonna get licenses for $20 a pop)

I might do the same, I never bothered checking the college prices for Windows.

Is there a limit to how many you can buy? I'd probably dual boot a couple computers.

I'd never, EVER pay full price (or even half price) for Vista (I'm talking about Ultimate, because Basic is absolutely worthless).


A Mac with Leopard and Vista dual booted next year would be nice.

I don;t about your school, but U.T. allows one license per student.

I'll probably get it just because its gonna be cheap (my college is gonna get licenses for $20 a pop)

I am sure that the license for the product your university supplies will expire in a year. I know that when the university that I once attended gave out full versions of software, the license expired in a year.

I will not be getting Vista anytime soon because my laptop will not run it. And I do not have the funds to buy a new computer.

actually, I checked and they specifically offer full licenses, the only way a license would be expired is if I was kicked out, the license is even good after graduation

[Praxis]

I don;t about your school, but U.T. allows one license per student.

Gah! So that prevents getting a copy for the laptop and the desktop.

[Durandal]

Name one game that I couldn't play on my computer if I went out and bought a Mac today. True, there are some games that are windows-only, but Mac ports are becoming more and more prevalent (and the time-to-port becoming much shorter) for many of these games. And, of course, if there's that one game that you just CAN'T find for OS X, you can simply install Windows (natively or via virtualization, take your pick) and play it there.

The "dual boot" solution doesn't hold water. Telling consumers to just reboot into a different operating system if they want to play a game is ridiculous. It's fine for a piece of mission-critical software that only runs on Windows, but not for entertainment.

And Mac game porting is one of those businesses that will probably be obsoleted by virtualization and WINE-type technologies if they're done right, which Cider looks to be. The return on investment is just way too thin.

[Uraniun235]

As for whether I'm going to Vista... nah, Windows TG is what I need.

4) 'On-site service' that consists of a guy who comes out on-site, looks at the system, and says, 'Yep, ship it back to Dell.'

Oh, barf, really? That's crap. We had a DOA Gateway computer at work recently and Gateway sent a dude out to fix it on site, with parts and all.

I've added non-Dell RAM to Dell computers before. They were Dimension machines; maybe the Optiplexes have a trickier motherboard.

If I remember right, the Dimension brand is the "home" brand whereas the Optiplex brand is the "office" brand, so I could very well see them dicking around with the Optiplex boards, figuring that corporate users have the cash to throw around on memory upgrades.

Even without all the changes in functionality, at this point I'd get it simply to be able to stare at something else then XP's UI (and no, hackish stuff like Windows Blinds don't count).

Meh. The screenshots I've seen haven't impressed me.

But then, the very first thing I did after installing XP was to reset the theme to "Windows Classic", so asking me about UIs is probably like asking Stark about cyberpunk.