Steam and Steel: AltHist. Victorian STGOD

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 05:28pm

Thoughts on the proposed resource and construction system? My post on the previous page has been edited.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-10 05:29pm

Sounds good. I just really, really hope I have rare metals, given my nation basically is super-tech.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 05:32pm

It's random, but keep in mind that you can access rare metals via trade and colonialism; also, your initial 4000 points don't require resources.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-10 05:43pm

So any trade or shipping income (like from controlling choke points) would be reflected by the points every three month

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 05:44pm

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2006-09-10 05:45pm

Nit: We're in the same boat there, I fear. oh well, my ends busy enough to keep the ol' trade routes flowing, I suppose.

Third: 'Buh~?' was my initial thoughts at reading the economy system. After a re-read, it seems a tad complicated for my tastes, but passable.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-10 05:52pm

Thirdfain wrote:It's random, but keep in mind that you can access rare metals via trade and colonialism; also, your initial 4000 points don't require resources.

Aw well. If I get none, then I obviously used up the existing deposits of pure Ether in it's gaseous form, et cetera, in my existing industrialization effort, and must now go to find more.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-09-10 05:54pm

It is complicated... I hope for a "cataloge" of ships, right now Im trying to find out how much 'purchaseing a ship based on the Royal Sovereign

Displacement: 14,150 tons.
Length: 380 ft.
Beam: 75ft.
Horse power: 13,312.
Draught: 27' 6".
Speed: 18 knots.
Armament: four 67 ton guns in armoured barbettes.
Armour: 18 inch thick
Crew Compliment: 750

Im guessing its will cost around 140 points as far as tons, but im currently mystified on how to caculate the:
Prot: ?
Speed: ?
Fire: ?
Maneuver: ?
T. Prot: ?
Point aspect of it.

EDIT:

Also a list of ships Thirdfain has posted by tonnage.
"Trafalgar"-class BattleShip 12,590 tons
"Dupuy de Lome"-class Armoured Cruisers 6,676 tons
"Newark"-class Protected Cruisers 4,592 tons
"Alfonso XII"-class Unprotected Cruisers 3,900 tonnes
"Destructor"-class Torpedoboat Destroyers ???? tonnes
"Achelaos"-class GunBoat 404 tons
"Storen"-class Torpedo Boats 117 tons

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 05:58pm

That battleship has good speed, good armour, and judging by the armament you gave it (no medium or light guns,) abysmal firepower. Probably no anti-torpedo bulge in it's hull (most BBs of the era were poorly protected vs. torpedo attacks.) Something in the neighborhood of:
Prot: 50
Speed: 50
Fire: 10
Maneuver: 25
T. Prot: 5

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-09-10 06:02pm

Well, a pic SHOWS 6 mid range guns here

But the size and inches arn't recorded... I would imagine them to be similar to the "Trafalgar" of 6 x 4.7" (6 x 1)
EDIT: In any case if
Prot: 50
Speed: 50
Fire: 10
Maneuver: 25
T. Prot: 5
is correct, would the total "Cost" be around 280 points?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 06:05pm

Calculate? I've got no fuckin' rubric. It's highly sylized- you want to emphasize forepower in your design? do so. Balance? Do so. It's up to you. If you've got lots of TB-Destroyers, for instance, you won't waste points on torpedo protection on your BBs. I have no hard and fast rules, this is just giving you a way to prioritize different aspects of the ship's design.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 06:07pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Well, a pic SHOWS 6 mid range guns here

But the size and inches arn't recorded... I would imagine them to be similar to the "Trafalgar" of 6 x 4.7" (6 x 1)
EDIT: In any case if
Prot: 50
Speed: 50
Fire: 10
Maneuver: 25
T. Prot: 5
is correct, would the total "Cost" be around 280 points?

Yes, that'd be the cost. However, seeing that it's more heavily armed than you intially mentioned, I'd shift some points from Protection and Speed to Firepower.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-09-10 06:24pm

Thirdfain wrote:Calculate? I've got no fuckin' rubric. It's highly sylized- you want to emphasize forepower in your design? do so. Balance? Do so. It's up to you. If you've got lots of TB-Destroyers, for instance, you won't waste points on torpedo protection on your BBs. I have no hard and fast rules, this is just giving you a way to prioritize different aspects of the ship's design.

<snickers> LOL I'll keep that in mind Third

I guess I took some of this a bit more seriously then it needs to be

I did notice one thing... The points we have to put into Speed, Fire, etc always = the total tonnage?

If so, I'm going ahead and making my Starting Battleship class ship.

"Edselon" class CRS Battleship
14,000 tonnes
Prot: 30
Speed: 30
Fire: 50
Maneuver: 25
T. Prot: 5

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-10 06:38pm

points for tonnage >= points for other firepower, speed, et al.

Oh, and if anybody wants to get technical with their designs, you can use SpringSharp to help design the ship.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-10 06:46pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Well, a pic SHOWS 6 mid range guns here

But the size and inches arn't recorded... I would imagine them to be similar to the "Trafalgar" of 6 x 4.7" (6 x 1)
EDIT: In any case if
Prot: 50
Speed: 50
Fire: 10
Maneuver: 25
T. Prot: 5
is correct, would the total "Cost" be around 280 points?

It's just harder to find.

Main guns: 13.5 in
Secondary: 6 in
Tertiary: 12 pdrs (3 in or so?)

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 06:50pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:Calculate? I've got no fuckin' rubric. It's highly sylized- you want to emphasize forepower in your design? do so. Balance? Do so. It's up to you. If you've got lots of TB-Destroyers, for instance, you won't waste points on torpedo protection on your BBs. I have no hard and fast rules, this is just giving you a way to prioritize different aspects of the ship's design.
<snickers> LOL I'll keep that in mind Third I guess I took some of this a bit more seriously then it needs to be

I did notice one thing... The points we have to put into Speed, Fire, etc always = the total tonnage?

If so, I'm going ahead and making my Starting Battleship class ship.

"Edselon" class CRS Battleship
14,000 tonnes
Prot: 30
Speed: 30
Fire: 50
Maneuver: 25
T. Prot: 5

Perfect, and yeah, points put into attributes = tonnage.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-09-10 06:51pm

Thanks Beowulf, thats more then enough infor for what I need. Consider this ship to be my starting Battleship class, renamed "Edselon Class"

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 07:33pm

OK, folks- the dice-rolling is over, and I have the first news in resources:

Industrial Resources

Nitram: Coal, Iron
Thirdfain: Coal, Iron
Pablo Sanchez: Coal, Sulfur
Cap. Chewbacca: Coal, Iron, Sulfur
WeemadAndo: Coal, Iron, Sulfur
Vanas: Iron, Sulfur
Dahak: Iron, Sulfur
Crossroads: Coal, Iron
Agent Fisher: Coal
Beowulf: Coal, Iron
Jalinth: Coal, Iron
Adrian: Coal, Sulfur
Straha: Iron, Sulfur
Rasene: Iron, Sulfur

Growth Resources

Nitram: Food, Cotton
Thirdfain: Food
Pablo Sanchez: Cotton, Rares
Cap. Chewbacca: Rares
WeemadAndo: Food
Vanas: Food, Rares
Dahak: Food, Cotton
Crossroads: Food
Agent Fisher: Food, Cotton, Rares
Beowulf: Food
Jalinth: Cotton, Rares
Adrian: Food, Cotton
Straha: Food, Cotton, Rares
Rasene: Cotton

Luxury Resources

Nitram: N/A
Thirdfain: Silk, Spices
Pablo Sanchez: Spices
Cap. Chewbacca: Spices, Opium
WeemadAndo: Opium
Vanas: Silk
Dahak: Opium
Crossroads: Opium
Agent Fisher: Spices
Beowulf: Spices
Jalinth: N/A
Adrian: Silk
Straha: N/A
Rasene: Silk, Spices

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-10 07:39pm

Occurs to me to wonder: where do armed merchant vessels fall? Or for that matter, merchant vessels period.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 07:43pm

Hmm, good question. I suppose those would be abstracted- reinvestment includes the commission of new merchantmen. I would say that arming merchantmen would cost extra points, for sure, and that using them as Q-ships instead of as merchantmen would decrease your trimonthly construction.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-10 09:12pm

A Brief History of the Islamic Republic of Oman

With the decline of her Empire from 1860 Great Britain began to abandon her outlying territories so as to hold on to what she could; this was in some respects similar to the Roman Empire's abandonment of Britain itself in the fifth century. One of the first territories to be so "trimmed" was the Sultanate of Muscat and Oman.

After 1856 the Al Sa'id dynasty that ruled the Sultanate from the city of Muscat had maintained its rule primarily by virtue of British military assistance. Continually under pressure and sometimes direct assault from the devout Ibadi tribes based in Nizwah in the interior of Oman, the Al Sa'ids commanded little popular support outside the capital and without British assistance their days were numbered. In 1875 the Sultan Turki bin Sa'id had his army defeated in the field by a coalition of tribesmen, who then were able to take Muscat by storm. The Sultan and the entire Al Sa'id clan were put to the sword and the council of imams who had led the revolt settled in the erstwhile palace to determine the government to follow.

There then developed a conflict between the extreme fundamentalists and the moderates (much the minority) in the movement; the extremists were determined to build up in Oman a perfect Islamic union with laws administered harshly and directly from the Qu'ran. The moderates preferred to maintain a policy of toleration and pacific relations with other nations, and to modernize Oman while maintaining Arab culture and Muslim religion. This schism deepened and threatened to erupt into full-scale war, which the moderates would almost certainly lose, but events conspired to their advantage.

The coastal Arabs of Oman, though they had given only lukewarm support to the Al Sa'ids now determined that they would have to act to preserve their priviliges from an overreaching Islamist movement out of the interior. Members of the moderate faction actively courted their support, which brought with it the then small but still significant Omani navy. As the majority of the population subsisted along the coast, the fundamentalist factions found themselves outmaneuvered; together with infighting and lack of leadership, this meant that the moderates gained control of the agenda. They moved quickly to establish a compromise solution--there would be no more Sultanate, but also no Imamate.

Instead, a system of limited democracy was instituted, with each clan grouping having one vote in a national legislature. This legislature (Shura) then selected a national president and a body of ministers to carry out the laws. The definition of "clan" was left up to the government to determine, and the moderates moved to secure their hold by making historically fundamentalist clans individual larger and moderate coastal clans smaller, thus distorting the vote. To mollify the imams, they were placed in control of one half of the Republic's judicial system--Oman has Temporal Courts, in which a magistrate presides over trials for violation of Omani law, as well as Sharia Courts, which apply only to Muslims (the vast majority of the population) and judge violations of Islamic Law as presided over by an imam.

Each wilayat, or province, of Oman elects two representatives to the Shura. Initially composed of 110 men, the Shura expanded even as Oman expanded northward into the Trucial States (as of 1890, the border rests just beyond Abu Dhabi), such that it now counts 122 seats. The Shura has the power to draft laws and controls the purse strings of the Republic, but otherwise has little power. The current President of Oman, Ismail bin Haroun al Katiri, aims to continue the Republic's expansion into the trucial states and reestablish Omani preeminance over the East African coast, though he has preferred peaceful policies of trade and diplomacy over violence.

Map of the IRO

railroad lines are shown in red, with major cities
not pictured are the island of Socotra and eastern Yemen
(under Omani control as far west as Say'un and Al Mukalla)

300 points
ROS Khanjar
Battleship
15,000 tonnes
Armament: 4x13-inch guns
10x6-inch guns
10x6-pounders
12x3-pounders
6x18-inch torpedo tubes
Protection: 30
Speed: 30
Fire: 55
Maneuver: 25
Torpedo Protection: 10

x1 ship = 300 points

160 points
ROS Zulfiqar Class
Armoured Cruiser
8,000 tonnes
Armament: 6x8-inch guns
12x4-inch guns
8x6-pounders
4x1-pounders
3x18-inch torpedo tubes
Protection: 15
Speed: 20
Fire: 25
Maneuver: 15
Torpedo Protection: 5

x5 ships = 800 points

80 points
ROS Sohar Class
Protected Cruiser
4,000 tonnes
Armament: 2x8 inch guns
6x6-inch guns
2x18-inch torpedo tubes
Protection: 7
Speed: 10
Fire: 12
Maneuver: 9
Torpedo Protection: 2

x7 ships = 560 points

8 points
R-Class Torpedo Boat Destroyers
400 tonnes
Armament: 1x12-pounder
5x6-pounders
2x18 inch torpedo tubes
Speed: 2
Maneuver: 1
Fire: 1

x20 ships = 160 points

2 points
M-Class Motor Torpedo Boats
100 tonnes
Armament: 2x18 inch torpedo tubes
2x.303 Maxim guns
Speed: 1

x40 ships = 80 points

Sea Transport investment = 100 points

Republic of Oman Navy = 2000 points

100 Points
Omani Marine Division
10000 men
High quality troops equipped with Lee-Matrah bolt-action rifles and given assault training (the marines deploy from their vessels onto land via rowboats, typically by night).

2x Divisions = 200 points

300 Points
Omani Republican Army Infantry Division
10000 men
Top quality troops, equipped with Lee-Matrah Rifles and horse drawn artillery and maxim guns.

5x Divisions = 1500 points

150 Points
Oman Republican Army Dragoon Brigade
5000 men
Better quality dragoons equipped with Lee-Matrah rifles.

2x Brigades = 300 points

Omani Republican Army and Marine Corps = 2,000 points

Total Expenditure = 4,000 points

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 09:18pm

Very nice. Do people feel that a higher point total would be necessary? I more or less like the way this works out...

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-09-10 09:18pm

Alright, here's New Germania:

New Germania

After the great war europe was left in shambles, and no place suffered more than the various german and prussian states. Savage battles destroyed much of the countryside, but a number of wealthy nobles were able to escape with their fortunes intact. Mostly of the breed of "new men" they were technocrats and visionaries, and seeing the wasted shell Germany had become, they liquidated their assets and outfitted an expedition to the Indian Ocean. Madagascar offered a tempting home for them, and in 1863 they approached Queen Rasaoherina with a tempting offer; Allow several thousand german and prussian settlers to make the island their home and they would commit themselves to the defense of the island, now vulnerable after the loss of British protection.

Rasaoherina quickly assented to secure power over her newly-acquired throne, and over the next few decades the few thousand settlers quickly grew into over thirty thousand men, women, and children, many of them of mixed blood. The cultural fusion of malagasy, germanic, and british styles led to the creation of a very egalitarian state. The fleet of the new nation, officially called the Germanic Kingdom of Madagascar, patrols the waters of the western Indian Ocean from several island strongholds like Mauritius, and from the Kingdom's naval headquarters in Antsiranana Bay. Several Royal Navy captains and engineers have also made their homes in the Kingdom, enriching the naval tradition and shipbuilding expertise.

The native peoples have not been left behind, as the council of nobles decreed that literacy and education were necessary for a stable populace. In addition several prominent tribal chieftans and families were decreed to be "noble" houses and granted titles as barons and baronesses. While Queen Rasaoherina is the official head of state, the monarchy has very little power and the true authority in the Kingdom lies with the council of nobles and the council of commons, the latter of which draws its membership from elected professionals in various fields of commerce and academia.

Germania (as it is colloquially called) is very defensive of its territiories, though it is eager to extend its authority to the mainland of africa among the uncivilized areas, as well as to some of the free archipelagoes and islands in the center of the ocean. To that end the greater portion of science, research, and engineering is towards naval applications and defensive gunnery, with precious little development towards land warfare beyond what is necessary for brief naval invasions or defensive actions.

Economically Germania is focused on developing its own internal resources and infrastructure to become less dependent on trade for vital resources, while at the same time it is trying to forge alliances with other like-minded nations in this new world.

***

Hey thirdfain, seriously, what's up with those islands north of me. They don't exist IRL, did you invent them, or is it a graphical error?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-10 09:22pm

Hey thirdfain, seriously, what's up with those islands north of me. They don't exist IRL, did you invent them, or is it a graphical error?

Added, so that there can be more excitement around the Red Sea.

NOTICE

I made a change to the rules for buying troops- instead of having 1 point net you 20 men, 1 point nets 200. The previous system made a single regiment of 1000 well equipped men cost as much as an entire battleship. Silly, indeed!

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-10 09:32pm

Thirdfain wrote:I made a change to the rules for buying troops- instead of having 1 point net you 20 men, 1 point nets 200. The previous system made a single regiment of 1000 well equipped men cost as much as an entire battleship. Silly, indeed!

I was, in fact, just then composing a message to that exact effect when I refreshed the page and saw this message. I've edited my figures to show the factor of ten bump to manpower.

EDIT:
Also, I'd like to claim Socotra for Oman.