Steam and Steel: AltHist. Victorian STGOD

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 02:47pm

The distances involved mean that the Khaliphate would have serious trouble sending their main force after you unless they could move by sea.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-12 02:47pm

Thirdfain wrote:Hold on- you're right, I fucked up the math- I played with the OOB a bit before posting, added the destroyers and such too late, but where did I ever set a rule that you could only have 1 battleship? I said that nations could expect to have no more than about 10 capital ships. Pardon if I did say as such... I just don't remember doing it.

In any case, I'm fiddling with the set-up now...

I remember the 10 capship part, don't remember the 1 battleship part though.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 02:49pm

Did I say it in a PM? Let me check...

-edit-

I searched all posts made by me in the last 3 months containing the word "Battleship" and didn't find one with the 1 battleship a nation rule; also, I've modified my OOB to fit. Thank you for the heads up, and sorry about the accident.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-09-12 02:50pm

I wouldn't go overboard, Nit. They're probably mostly busy with their own internal problems. I'd go with reasonably strong defensive forts and then fast cavalry (or camelry) to patrol the borders.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-12 02:54pm

Thirdfain wrote:Did I say it in a PM? Let me check...

-edit-

I searched all posts made by me in the last 3 months containing the word "Battleship" and didn't find one with the 1 battleship a nation rule; also, I've modified my OOB to fit. Thank you for the heads up, and sorry about the accident.

I'm fairly sure I remember you saying it; it's possible that since a great number of your posts have been edited multiple times that it was droppped somewhere along the line.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-12 02:55pm

Hm, sorry. But I did remember something along the line of 1 BB per nation. Otherwise I'd obviously had more than one in my OOB...

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 02:57pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:Did I say it in a PM? Let me check...

-edit-

I searched all posts made by me in the last 3 months containing the word "Battleship" and didn't find one with the 1 battleship a nation rule; also, I've modified my OOB to fit. Thank you for the heads up, and sorry about the accident.
I'm fairly sure I remember you saying it; it's possible that since a great number of your posts have been edited multiple times that it was droppped somewhere along the line.

If someone could check my edits? Don't mods have that power? I might be mistaken, but I don't recall saying anything more concrete than "Battleships are expensive and rare."

I thought the reason everyone was taking only one was due to Pablo's choice in fleet composition, and it looked like everyone was taking a que from him... but then, I've been posting a lot for this game and fiddling a good deal with rules, so I might have made the proclamation earlier and forgotten.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-09-12 02:59pm

So any suggestions as to where I should base out of that's closer then (just north of Japan?) Or purhaps I should base out of say Okinawa?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 03:00pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:So any suggestions as to where I should base out of that's closer then (just north of Japan?) Or purhaps I should base out of say Okinawa?

Quite impossible, the Mikado's navy would never allow gaijin on His land...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-09-12 03:04pm

True, that's why I asked for suggestions?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-12 03:05pm

Thirdfain wrote:If someone could check my edits? Don't mods have that power? I might be mistaken, but I don't recall saying anything more concrete than "Battleships are expensive and rare."

AFAIK Admins have the power to see who did what and when, but they can't see exactly what was changed. In any case I don't think it matters; it's very possible that Dahak thinking you said it caused me to misremember it--it's a pretty small detail. I think we can waive the argument and accept that you're right.

I thought the reason everyone was taking only one was due to Pablo's choice in fleet composition, and it looked like everyone was taking a que from him...

I didn't really think of that because I don't think people would do that; the Omani fleet is optimized for the task that it's critical for--littoral control of the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea coasts, with a bit of blue-water projection provided by the ROS Khanjar BB. I also divided my points about 50-50 between my army and navy because of my proximity to the Kaliphate. This makes sense for me and Nitram to a lesser extent (he'll probably spend more points on fortification because he has less of a natural barrier against the Kaliphate) but not as much for other players who are located on islands and so forth.

Oh well.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 03:06pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:True, that's why I asked for suggestions?

I would prefer that opening up distant coaling stations across the game area take place during the course of the game, not before the game starts- we should get to scramble viciously for them.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-09-12 03:07pm

Thirdfain wrote:If someone could check my edits? Don't mods have that power? I might be mistaken, but I don't recall saying anything more concrete than "Battleships are expensive and rare."

I thought the reason everyone was taking only one was due to Pablo's choice in fleet composition, and it looked like everyone was taking a que from him... but then, I've been posting a lot for this game and fiddling a good deal with rules, so I might have made the proclamation earlier and forgotten.

I do not remember a 1 battleship limit either. Indeed, I've been toying with OOBs containing anything from 3 BBs to none. Furthermore, I'm not seeing any reason why the number of battleships should be limited. Anybody wanna spend half their points in battleships? Go ahead, but don't start crying when your precious Queens of the Seas get torpedoed to death because you couldn't bother to get lighter ships to screen them.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 03:13pm

One last question. Rare Metals are required for supertech, but it was said this 'doesn't count', as all resources don't, for opening. Is it therefore feasible to field something exotic and experimental?

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2006-09-12 03:16pm

The question is how useful is a battleship to you?

I choose to build only one Battleship more as a flagship then as a Warship to be used. The vast amont of my points went into smaller and faster ships that will no doubt be of use in the crowded waters around Borneo.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-12 03:20pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:The question is how useful is a battleship to you?

I choose to build only one Battleship more as a flagship then as a Warship to be used. The vast amont of my points went into smaller and faster ships that will no doubt be of use in the crowded waters around Borneo.

Should one enjoy the notion of forceful expansion, a fleet capable of blasting lesser ships to smithereens is quite useful.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 03:23pm

This would be a fine time to announce another idea I've been having:

The Victorian naval world was full of surprises. The science of armour and gun was in it's infancy, and schemes for protection warships, as well as weapon designs, often had a myriad tiny flaws. A single mine hit could instantly sink the most expensive battleship, or fail to down a torpedo-boat destroyer. An armoured cruiser could survive under enemy fire for hours, only slowly sinking after being pounded almost to the waterline, or become useless after a single salvo.

To represent this, there will be critical hits in this game. Torpedos and mines will have very high chances of inflicting those hits, while the fire from large-calibre guns- fortress guns, and the main guns on cruisers and battleships especially versus lighter opponents- will have a very low but non-zero chance of inflicting critical hits. These will be rolled via random number generator, monitored by me and 1 player neutral to whatver conflict is taking place.

Critical hits can cause the vessel to drastically lose speed, lose the ability to maneuver, strike the flag deck or bridge, or even, especially in the case of mines or torpedoes, burst the hull and doom the ship to a swift death. Torpedo protection lowers the chances for torpedo and mine strikes, but does not take them to zero.

Initial thoughts:

A mine or torpedo strike has a 60% chance of being critical, decreased by 1% for every 2 points of torpedo protection a ship has to a minimum of 30%. Further torpedo protection over that point simply reduces the damage of a non-critical hit (abstracted.)

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-09-12 03:27pm

Thirdfain wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Question: The issue I raised earlier (for Dahak in that case), how does weemadando have three industrial resources in the friggin' Maldives of all places? I understand that we're makin the area more resource rich than real life, and that's great, but come on, when was the last time there was something valuable in a tiny bunch of god-forsaken islands?

Would it be too much to ask that he take the vacant Indian coast?
Interesting point. I'll have to think about it.

Just thought of another part of the issue for you to think about. Having only a small group of islands that can go toe-to-toe with larger nations gives an unfair advantage. Since they're so small, defending the Maldives is very easy. It's possible for the Sultanate to have all islands covered, yet be able swiftly concentrate to respond to emergencies in critical areas, and still have ships left over for offensive operations.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 03:31pm

Just thought of another part of the issue for you to think about. Having only a small group of islands that can go toe-to-toe with larger nations gives an unfair advantage. Since they're so small, defending the Maldives is very easy. It's possible for the Sultanate to have all islands covered, yet be able swiftly concentrate to respond to emergencies in critical areas, and still have ships left over for offensive operations.

Sold.

Weemadando, it will be necessary for you to take more territory, that or have one of your industrial resources pared. Sound fair?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-12 03:42pm

Thirdfain wrote:This would be a fine time to announce another idea I've been having:

The Victorian naval world was full of surprises. The science of armour and gun was in it's infancy, and schemes for protection warships, as well as weapon designs, often had a myriad tiny flaws. A single mine hit could instantly sink the most expensive battleship, or fail to down a torpedo-boat destroyer. An armoured cruiser could survive under enemy fire for hours, only slowly sinking after being pounded almost to the waterline, or become useless after a single salvo.

To represent this, there will be critical hits in this game. Torpedos and mines will have very high chances of inflicting those hits, while the fire from large-calibre guns- fortress guns, and the main guns on cruisers and battleships especially versus lighter opponents- will have a very low but non-zero chance of inflicting critical hits. These will be rolled via random number generator, monitored by me and 1 player neutral to whatver conflict is taking place.

Critical hits can cause the vessel to drastically lose speed, lose the ability to maneuver, strike the flag deck or bridge, or even, especially in the case of mines or torpedoes, burst the hull and doom the ship to a swift death. Torpedo protection lowers the chances for torpedo and mine strikes, but does not take them to zero.

Initial thoughts:

A mine or torpedo strike has a 60% chance of being critical, decreased by 1% for every 2 points of torpedo protection a ship has to a minimum of 30%. Further torpedo protection over that point simply reduces the damage of a non-critical hit (abstracted.)

Sounds nice.
There have been a really amazing amount of blunders in the naval history...

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 03:45pm

The effect on the appliance of battleships should be obvious- a single lucky torpedo can put the mightiest battleship on the sea floor.

Also, to better the reality of ship construction, I am in the process of working out a system to make the construction of major vessels take more than 1 3-month period- maybe as many as 4.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-12 03:50pm

What about that idea for the "merchant shipping pool" to handle merchant fleets?

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2006-09-12 03:52pm

Hmm, seeing that lot, I'll re-ask:

Most of my ships are trimarans, notably hard to sink even if one (or even two) of the hulls is holed by a torpedo. So... Are the points I put into my ships as regards a standard ship of equivalent class (in which case I have to devote alot to T protection that's technically innate), or a trimaran of that class?

Or, should I leave the outriggers packed with kegs of tinder-dry TNT?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-12 03:55pm

Dahak wrote:What about that idea for the "merchant shipping pool" to handle merchant fleets?

I'm of the opinion that trade ought to be more abstracted and dealt with in the diplomatic thread, to prevent players going "lolz, even though I am an international pariah I get mad tradez because I invested lots in my merchant marine".

EDIT:

Vanas wrote:Most of my ships are trimarans, notably hard to sink even if one (or even two) of the hulls is holed by a torpedo. So... Are the points I put into my ships as regards a standard ship of equivalent class (in which case I have to devote alot to T protection that's technically innate), or a trimaran of that class?

I don't think you should get a free ride on anything just by saying your ships are trimarans. First of all, I don't even know how feasible it was to even do that with large ships under 1890s technology, since nobody ever did it. Second of all, even if it did work the fact that nobody ever did it is another strike against your getting the said advantages for free. So my opinion is yes, you should have to "waste" points to represent the experimental nature of your trimaran vessels.

It's sort of like if I said, "the Omanis are such geniuses that they arbitrarily take their Maxim guns off of the horse-drawn artillery carriages and set them up with tripods at ground level." Yes, that's a smart idea, but because nobody thought of it at the time it would just be me taking my out-of-game knowledge and applying it to the game for a huge advantage. It isn't fair to the other players.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2006-09-12 04:08pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Dahak wrote:What about that idea for the "merchant shipping pool" to handle merchant fleets?
I'm of the opinion that trade ought to be more abstracted and dealt with in the diplomatic thread, to prevent players going "lolz, even though I am an international pariah I get mad tradez because I invested lots in my merchant marine".

Personally I agree with this view point as well. If the abstraction of trade doesn't fit in with the rest of the STGOD we can always formalize it later anyway. The one thing which, in my opinion, should be formalized about merchant shipping would be the idea of having merchant sailors as reserve sailors for national navies costing some set number of resource points.