A sad story compounded by fundies

Post by **Cairber** » 2006-09-12 11:13pm

I wasn't sure where to post this, but since it deals with Anencephaly, I decided it should go here.

My friend's sister is about 20 weeks pregnant and just found out that her baby has anencephaly. She is, of course, in shock and grieveing. They have decided to abort (I'm practically crying for her typing this).

Apparently her father-in-law, a very religious man, has already started on her about the "horrible sin" they have decided to perform. He wants them to do more research. He printed up research about babies living years with this condition.

SHe is no state to really think about this right now. But her FIL's 'research' is telling stories of these anencephaly babies living and has all these cute pictures of these kids on their birthdays. They don't say anything about how these kids HAVE NO FOREBRAIN.

She knows this, and, in a PM today told me they are going through with it no matter what but now she just keeps thinking now and then that "what if" "what if" if her child might be one of the ones that lives for years.

My other friend and I are unsure of what to say to her. We both support her choice to abort, but we aren't sure if we should address her concerns about "what if." I know that her doctors will tell her that even if the child lives, it cannot think or be conscious. I just hope that her FIL doesn't guilt her into going through with the pregnancy.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-09-12 11:24pm

Cairber wrote:Apparently her father-in-law, a very religious man, has already started on her about the "horrible sin" they have decided to perform. He wants them to do more research. He printed up research about babies living years with this condition.

Fucking appaling. Trying to play the guilt-ridden morality card with someone who has to actually go through this is sub human. Yet another shining example of the unconditional Christian love...

Yeah, that's awesome you and your friends are being there for her. That's really what she needs.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-12 11:29pm

I had to look this up as I've never heard of it before. After reading what the conditions most of these children are born into the world with... man... I think it is appauling that the FIL would be against an abortion. I understand it is against his religion, but the way this kid might be born... It would break your friends heart everyday.

My little sister has Rheumatoid arthritis and because of it and the treatment for it she is very close to being blind. I know my mother aches about this in a way that couldn't possibly be explained. How or why your friend's FIL would want to put her through what I would imagine to be a million times worse is just mind boggling.

You tell your friend that you are behind her decision 100%, no matter what it ends up being.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-12 11:30pm

On a more pissed off note. You tell her FIL that when "God" gets his work done properly then she will get hers done.

Post by **Cairber** » 2006-09-13 12:06am

The thing that really gets me is that after he did the religious angle talk to them he has gone into the "I want to provide the other side" mode. Basically it seems like now he's saying doctors won't tell them about these children who have lived (and I use this term loosely) with the defect.

The religious angle just seemed to make her mad...this seems to be making her think "what if what if".

Aasharu · Post by **Aasharu** » 2006-09-13 12:21am

That is some of the same logic used in the Terry Schivo case: That she was technically "alive," and so should be kept on life support. Just because they can breath, and their heart beats, doesn't mean they are "alive," in my opinion.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-13 12:31am

That sort of thing is just terrible. Convincing mothers to carry a child to term, because it might live *years*. Not 'decades', not 'have a decent life', but *might* *live* *years*. It's disgusting.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-13 02:25am

Perhaps her father-in-law wants her to have the no-brain child so he will have someone around who's on his own intellectual level.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-09-13 03:28am

The fucker is peddling false hope and it's just cruel. Good luck to her and keep reminding her you support her decision, and remind her it was entirely hers to make.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-09-13 06:46am

First of all, let express my condolences at hearing about this tragedy.

That said - children with ancephaly DO NOT LIVE. At best, they might exist a few weeks, with extensive life support, and more typically just a few days. Without medical aid they expire within hours.

They are missing more than just a forebrain. Basically, all they have is the brainstem, and even that isn't very functional. They are also missing... well, let's just say no child with anacephaly has a "cute picture" on any birthday.

Children with less extreme neural tube defects can live, have birthdays, look cute, and so on, but not children with anacephly. It is always fatal. And I'm so very sorry anyone has to go through that.

Funny - the person adovacting following through with this doomed pregnancy isn't the person who will be caring for this infant, will he? Funny how that's usually the case....

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-09-13 06:52am

This fucking depresses me beyond words. The father in law is evil and repugnant beyond anything that I can personally tolerate. And yet that sick fucker tries to claim the moral high ground.

JLTucker · Post by **JLTucker** » 2006-09-13 07:01am

I was looking at some pictures of babies with this condition. Anyone who would let their daughter conceive a child with this heartbreaking condition is an idiot. How the fuck do they think their daughter will feel when they see their child? It will fucking tramatize them.

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2006-09-13 09:43am

I will play the..."Devil's advocate"...which is a really weird concept, considering the subject matter.

This has to do with the religious belief that God is the only one who decides who lives and who dies. It doesn't matter what the condition of the baby is and it's potential for development. The baby has to be born or "we are denying God's sovereignty", which would be a sin.

As I step away from the "Devil's advocate" role, I agree that you should stand behind her decision 100%. That is the most important thing you can do for her.

Post by **Cairber** » 2006-09-13 09:51am

That said - children with ancephaly DO NOT LIVE. At best, they might exist a few weeks, with extensive life support, and more typically just a few days. Without medical aid they expire within hours.

So all this stuff he's showing her could be false testimony? She did say the sites are personal sites, not medical ones...parents talking about their epxeriences and they have pictures and whatnot. Her doctor told her basically the same thing you have said, just adding that in rare instances they can leave years but that has only happened a handful of times and it is the most common brain defect I guess.

The internet is my only source on this right now, and what I'm seeing is very depressing. I was searching for support groups and came up with all these sites dedicated to the defect but all the women on them were basically saying the same thing "I can't believe anyone would terminate."

I couldn't find a single one that didnt have that bias (well, I only searched for a half hour or so, but still...)

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-09-13 10:06am

The anencephal's record lifespan would barely be a dozen years. No one lasted longer, and that's a miniscule chance anyway. So there's 99% that he'll die at birth, or between few hours-few days later. And 1% for a miserable life around 10 years. In fact, there's around 50% that he'll be stillborn.
Why miserable? He will not gain consciousness, I never heard of any cases of a person like this actually becoming conscious after birth. It's like PVS, maybe worse even. The body responds to basic stimuli, but the intellect - something that separates us from deadmen - is forever unobtainable.
You should know that over 90% of those who have such a situation choose to abort.

I support the decision, of course. Giving birth to someone who will never live, to traumatise your own self... is evil.

Post by **Cairber** » 2006-09-13 10:10am

Of course this is something that I would not speak to her about;

But I have been thinking about whether it is humane not to abort in this situation.

Maybe it's because I feel a certain creepiness about dressing/playing/attaching your family to a child who has no ability to think, feel, see, hear, etc. I don't know. It just seems to rub my human rights sense the wrong way. It feels almost like treating the human body like a doll.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-13 10:45am

It's ghoulish to pretend that a brainless meatsack is a thinking, feeling child.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-09-13 10:59am

It feels almost like treating the human body like a doll.

The human body, devoid of any consciousness is little more than a doll, or if you want to get really objectionable, a resource. The only good that I could concievably see coming from carrying such a baby to term is that it's organs could possibly help save other children.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-09-13 12:34pm

Cairber wrote:The thing that really gets me is that after he did the religious angle talk to them he has gone into the "I want to provide the other side" mode. Basically it seems like now he's saying doctors won't tell them about these children who have lived (and I use this term loosely) with the defect.

When in doubt, call it a conspiracy theory. Works for all the other wackos.

Cairber wrote:The religious angle just seemed to make her mad...this seems to be making her think "what if what if".

Then she's left with an infant that may live, but will never have any cognitive function. Terri Schiavo from birth.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2006-09-13 01:24pm

My most heartfelt condolences to you, your friend and her sister, Cairber. The FIL, and those who think like him, define selfish.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-13 01:31pm

To try and put everything in perspective... If this child is the one-in-a-billion that has a functional brainstem.. Another one-in-a-billion who also is not horrifically deformed... Well...

They'll never turn to look at a familiar voice. They'll never learn 'Mama' or 'Dada'. No control over waste release, no abiltiy to eat like we define it. No language, no communication, no emotions.

I cannot think of a human alive who could withstand that kind of tragedy, a child who is not merely less aware than a housecat or goldfish, but will never attain that level. It is frankly abusive to demand someone undergo such a heartbreaking thing.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-13 01:35pm

Where the fuck is her husband while her father-in-law is inflicting this psychological torture on her? Isn't he supposed to love, honour, and PROTECT her from harm, including harm that is inflicted by his own parents?

If he won't stand up to his father in order to protect his wife, he's in dereliction of his marital duties.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2006-09-13 01:36pm

Cairber wrote:Of course this is something that I would not speak to her about;

But I have been thinking about whether it is humane not to abort in this situation.

Maybe it's because I feel a certain creepiness about dressing/playing/attaching your family to a child who has no ability to think, feel, see, hear, etc. I don't know. It just seems to rub my human rights sense the wrong way. It feels almost like treating the human body like a doll.

Perhaps your friend could offer to let the Fucker-in-Law adopt the child after it is born? If he's not willing to adopt the kid, it'll say a lot (that we all already know, but everybody else will see it now).

loomer · Post by **loomer** » 2006-09-13 01:57pm

Perhaps you could talk to the FIL yourself and point out that they have no chance of ever 'living', and that those who survive longer than a few months never become conscious and require constant care, placing them below the level of insects in their intelligence.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-09-13 02:24pm

This is so typical, and quite terrible.

How can any rational human being (which already, FIL has demonstratably proven he is not) believe that it'd be a good life for this child to be born, without higher brain functions, eating from a tube and laying in bed for years before just dying 'at best'?? It's not like after ten years, they'll 'get better'.

Don't let her think 'what if'. It's playing the lottery, and when she loses, she'll go through a lot of pain, heartache and stress for years. Save her the pain. Her FIL obviously cares more about his own religious comfort zone, than weeks or possibly (as he hopes) years of trauma over this horrible affair.

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A sad story compounded by fundies

A sad story compounded by fundies

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