The 12 Step Program...

[Keevan_Colton]

1. We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
7. Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Link

Tonight was the first time I actually looked up the 12 Step Program. I recall Mike saying a few times how so many folk with a wild past become born again and this really made some sense of that. I thought that some folks here might be interested in seeing what it involves as well.

What do folk think of this and the connection it shows between born again nonsense and alcoholics?

[Superman]

I work with this population, and I know that the 12 step program works for a good number of people. It helps them become and stay clean.

The 'higher power' concept is what really frightens people off much of the time. While working in a detox, my advice toward atheists and agnostics, like myself, was to think of a 'higher power' as something that was just not their own ego. I usually said to just think of the meeting group itself as the higher power. It really just represents a way for them to get out of their own head, and if anyone knows any addicts, they stay up there and analyze things to death.

I really do with there was less 'god' and more 'higher power.' Most people in the groups are not raving Christians, but some certainly do become this way and find Jesus, become born again, etc., but if they keep it out of the meeting, then I don't have a problem with it. The vast majority of the people in the meetings know they fuck up, and they fuck up alot... for some that meeting is all they have. It really provides an experience of fellowship that saves lives.

As an alternative, there is a secular/humanist 12 step program without all the god and spirituality stuff. I can dig the link up if anyone is interested... the only problem with this group is finding a meeting. I think it's called SORT...

[Superman]

Oh, in response to your question... yes, there probably is most definately a connection between the biology, and psychology, of addiction and religious behavior. I guess I don't come down as hard on "Friends of Bill W" because they keep it to themselves, and they're actually doing something about their problem instead of driving drunk and hurting people, selling dope, etc.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

The 'higher power' concept is what really frightens people off much of the time. While working in a detox, my advice toward atheists and agnostics, like myself, was to think of a 'higher power' as something that was just not their own ego. I usually said to just think of the meeting group itself as the higher power. It really just represents a way for them to get out of their own head, and if anyone knows any addicts, they stay up there and analyze things to death.

That part is precisely what scares my friend Conrad away from the 12-step AA.

As an alternative, there is a secular/humanist 12 step program without all the god and spirituality stuff. I can dig the link up if anyone is interested... the only problem with this group is finding a meeting. I think it's called SORT...

That would be wonderful

[Superman]

That would be wonderful

You got it. Give me a few.

[Superman]

Ah, crap... I keep thinking I can edit my posts in here... sorry...

SOS Save Our Selves. A secular alternative to AA and NA. I've read some pretty positive stuff about this group.

Rational Recovery This one, unfortunately, I haven't heard so many good things about. I'm just posting it because it's something to check out, and there are always things to learn. My problem with this one is that it advocates 'going at it alone.' Group settings seem to help people grow emotionally, become less anxious, learn to trust people, etc. A group helps treat underlying psychopathology, not just the addiction.

[Aaron]

The God bullshit is precisely why I never returned to AA after my first meeting, there are no secular AA organisations in my area so I went clean myself. I was disgusted by the fact that they wanted me to turn my life over to a sky fairy and the lords prayer at the end of it almost made me puke.

My wifes uncle has recently become a devout member of AA and from my father in laws description is pushing god to anyone who will listen and that was my experiance with the members of the AA meeting I attended. Personally I don't see the connection between becoming sober and god.

[Superman]

My wifes uncle has recently become a devout member of AA and from my father in laws description is pushing god to anyone who will listen and that was my experiance with the members of the AA meeting I attended. Personally I don't see the connection between becoming sober and god.

In theory, the AA philosophy is not supposed to be about any kind of evangelism, except to other alcoholics who want to sober up. Of course, that's in theory. They are supposed to keep all of this behind the doors of their meetings and uphold total anonymity. Of course, we all know how people really work...

[Aaron]

In theory, the AA philosophy is not supposed to be about any kind of evangelism, except to other alcoholics who want to sober up. Of course, that's in theory. They are supposed to keep all of this behind the doors of their meetings and uphold total anonymity. Of course, we all know how people really work...

Yes I recieved lots of phone numbers from people in the group whom claimed to want to go out for coffee or to call them if I was having a rough patch and needed to talk. But I have the sneaking suspicion that the talking would have been about god and thats not my bag. I mean they were only trying to help but god was so intertwined with what they were doing it was hard to see anyother activity being god free. So I took the numbers and politely left the meeting and never returned, I'm not going to waste the nice peoples time.

[Superman]

Yes I recieved lots of phone numbers from people in the group whom claimed to want to go out for coffee or to call them if I was having a rough patch and needed to talk. But I have the sneaking suspicion that the talking would have been about god and thats not my bag. I mean they were only trying to help but god was so intertwined with what they were doing it was hard to see anyother activity being god free. So I took the numbers and politely left the meeting and never returned, I'm not going to waste the nice peoples time.

It's a fucking shame the secular groups are not as easily accessed. That really could mean the difference between someone's active addiction, and their sobriety...

[Aaron]

It's a fucking shame the secular groups are not as easily accessed. That really could mean the difference between someone's active addiction, and their sobriety...

Thats what happens when you live in the ass end of nowhere.

[Superman]

True, but most people don't even know they exist. Everyone knows about AA, to some extent, but most don't have a clue about the others.

[RedImperator]

There's clinical research to back up what Superman is saying. 12-step programs do work.

From what I've heard, different AA/NA chapters approach the "higher power" thing differently. Some are really heavy on the God, and others have a deist or even agnostic outlook, where the "higher power" can be pretty much anything bigger than yourself.

Having known addicts, and been to funerals of friends who couldn't get their shit togeter, even if some do turn into fundies after they clean up, frankly it's worth the tradeoff. You can possibly deconvert someone later. You can't bring him back to life.

[Darth Wong]

There's clinical research to back up what Superman is saying. 12-step programs do work.

From what I've heard, different AA/NA chapters approach the "higher power" thing differently. Some are really heavy on the God, and others have a deist or even agnostic outlook, where the "higher power" can be pretty much anything bigger than yourself.

Having known addicts, and been to funerals of friends who couldn't get their shit togeter, even if some do turn into fundies after they clean up, frankly it's worth the tradeoff. You can possibly deconvert someone later. You can't bring him back to life.

The problem is that this method is inherently hostile to those who are not inclined to be religious, and may in fact keep them from seeking help by monopolizing the support resources available in any given area. In other words, it may work for those who are inclined to religiosity but it may only create another barrier to recovery for those who aren't, hence pushing them directly into that early grave you're talking about. By making their recovery groups into a "Christians only" club, they send a message to the irreligious addict that he is not welcome, even among those who are supposedly there to help him.

[RedImperator]

There's clinical research to back up what Superman is saying. 12-step programs do work.

From what I've heard, different AA/NA chapters approach the "higher power" thing differently. Some are really heavy on the God, and others have a deist or even agnostic outlook, where the "higher power" can be pretty much anything bigger than yourself.

Having known addicts, and been to funerals of friends who couldn't get their shit togeter, even if some do turn into fundies after they clean up, frankly it's worth the tradeoff. You can possibly deconvert someone later. You can't bring him back to life.

The problem is that this method is inherently hostile to those who are not inclined to be religious, and may in fact keep them from seeking help by monopolizing the support resources available in any given area. In other words, it may work for those who are inclined to religiosity but it may only create another barrier to recovery for those who aren't, hence pushing them directly into that early grave you're talking about. By making their recovery groups into a "Christians only" club, they send a message to the irreligious addict that he is not welcome, even among those who are supposedly there to help him.

AA/NA and other 12-step programs have a very decentralized structure that allows different groups to approach the God issue in ways that are approppriate to their membership. In an area with a secular population, there will be secular groups. Having multiple groups in an area also prevents people from being driven out of the program by personality conflicts with other group members. The problem in rural areas is there might not be a large enough population to support many groups, but in a rural area with a large Christian population, I don't know that you'd get any kind of treatment program without a heavy dose of Christianity. The problem, from an atheist's perspective, is that a Christian addict is going to lean on God no matter what the program says, and if you have a group that's almost entirely Christian, God is going to be a big part of the group. The higher power clause undoubtedly makes it worse by giving it official sanction, but on the other hand, I don't know that a secular program would stay secular in a small town.

As for the Bullshit! episode on 12 Steps, I've seen clinical research that says the exact opposite. I suspect the jury is still out on the overall efficacy of the program. They are right about the addict needing to decide for himself to get clean, though. It doesn't matter if you use 12-steps, inpatient rehab, involuntary institutionalization, voodoo magic, prison, or any other damn thing: if the addict doesn't want to get clean, he won't.

[Stark]

I can say that as a child, I heard about the '12 step program' in movies etc. I just figured it was a regular detox thing, and I was pretty damn surprised when I found out it basically boils down to 'Jesus'. I would never, ever go to AA, because I'd laugh out loud every time I read the steps on the door. My dad is even quasi-religious, and *HE* just went to a regular detox place.

For a sociology assignment an old gf and I went to an AA meeting in town, and it was scary stuff. I don't know what Superman's experience is like, but the one we saw was quite 'fire and brimstone' rather than the quiet subdued meeting you see in movies etc.

[RedImperator]

I can say that as a child, I heard about the '12 step program' in movies etc. I just figured it was a regular detox thing, and I was pretty damn surprised when I found out it basically boils down to 'Jesus'. I would never, ever go to AA, because I'd laugh out loud every time I read the steps on the door. My dad is even quasi-religious, and *HE* just went to a regular detox place.

For a sociology assignment an old gf and I went to an AA meeting in town, and it was scary stuff. I don't know what Superman's experience is like, but the one we saw was quite 'fire and brimstone' rather than the quiet subdued meeting you see in movies etc.

Now when I sat in on an NA meeting, there was none of that nonsense going on. And "Step 3" was even the focus of that night's meeting. They approached the "higher power" as mutual support of each other. Some of the individuals there talked about leaning on God, but others didn't. My friend, the group member who invited me to sit in (I was doing research for a graduate school project), is secular herself, so she wouldn't be in a fire and brimstone organization.

[Ariphaos]

I heard something somewhere about AA being the only program that actually had a worse track record than doing nothing at all.

[Stark]

Don't some people stay on the 12 step program for months/years? My dad went from having a drinking problem to being totally clean in like five weeks, and he's never looked back. Quit smoking, too. He didn't need the 12 steps, and I was pretty fucking surprised how quick modern detox programs can be.

[RedImperator]

Don't some people stay on the 12 step program for months/years? My dad went from having a drinking problem to being totally clean in like five weeks, and he's never looked back. Quit smoking, too. He didn't need the 12 steps, and I was pretty fucking surprised how quick modern detox programs can be.

Some do. Some have to. A lot of poeple going into AA/NA are coming out of an inpatient detox and use the program to stay clean. It's not just a matter of breaking the chemical dependency (which is the easy part when modern medicine is used), though some people can get dried out in a few weeks and walk away. The psychological addiction must be dealt with, and also the underlying psychological problems which drives people back into dependency. For some, detox is enough, for others, it takes years or even decades in AA. It just depends on the addict.

[Stark]

I guess it's like junkies: some can stop shooting up for a week, and they never want it again once the withdrawl is gone.

[RedImperator]

I guess it's like junkies: some can stop shooting up for a week, and they never want it again once the withdrawl is gone.

Yeah, exactly. Part of the problem in dealing with addicts is that we don't really understand how the psychological component of addiction works, so we have no idea why some people can walk away and some have to fight their whole lives to keep clean. The physical side is easy; we understand the chemical mechanism behind physical addiction about as well as we understand any part of how the brain works (which may be damning with faint priase, but we'll run with it for now), but the psychological end is a mystery despite all the years people have been working on it.

[Superman]

I guess it's like junkies: some can stop shooting up for a week, and they never want it again once the withdrawl is gone.

Even well beyond that. The chemical has allowed them to 'regulate' their feelings and emotions for years. It's more than craving and withdrawal.

[Setesh]

The basic problem is the 'its a disease' mentality. It isn't. Putting it in the arena of a disease makes it psychologically harder to stop drinking. It makes you start thinking that you have no choice. There is no virus, no bacteria, no cancer, no birth defect, no genetic shift that makes you an alchoholic. (though there is a gene that makes alcohol addiction less likly, found predominatly in japanese decent, it also prevents hangover).

You want to stop drinking, don't drink.
You want to stop gambling, don't go to vegas.
Want to lose weight, eat right and exercise.
Sex addict, stop fucking.

Still can't do it? Get some therepy, your addiction may have deeper roots.

P.S. as far as I can uncover via google AA's success rate is indeed the same as cold turkey quitters. Though in my search I found this:

"Cult or Cure"

[Darth Wong]

I guess it's like junkies: some can stop shooting up for a week, and they never want it again once the withdrawl is gone.

Yeah, exactly. Part of the problem in dealing with addicts is that we don't really understand how the psychological component of addiction works, so we have no idea why some people can walk away and some have to fight their whole lives to keep clean. The physical side is easy; we understand the chemical mechanism behind physical addiction about as well as we understand any part of how the brain works (which may be damning with faint priase, but we'll run with it for now), but the psychological end is a mystery despite all the years people have been working on it.

The fact that some people are more susceptible to compulsive behaviour may actually be chemical in origin.

http://www.healthy.net/scr/news.asp?Id=8239

For those who don't want to bother reading it, an Alzheimer's drug called Mirapex has been linked to sudden onset of compulsive gambling behaviour in patients with no prior history of such behaviour.