Are the Uruk-Hai immortal?

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-12-23 03:18am

Tolkien's Orcs were created when Morgoth corrupted Elves he had captured near Cuivienen early in the First Age. Like the Elves from which they were created, Orcs are not subject to aging or disease, so they do not die naturally. Most of them probably die by violence before they reach any great age, however.

Does this also apply to Uruk-Hai? The movie suggests they were made by interbreeding Orcs with Men; I'm not sure if Tolkien ever specified in his writings. Are the Uruk-Hai immortal like Elves and normal Orcs, or did they inherit mortality thanks to the genes they got from Men? Half-Elves like Elrond and Elros were ultimately allowed to choose to which kindred they would belong (and thus whether they would be immortal or mortal), but I don't imagine any such choice would be given to half-Orcs.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2002-12-23 04:04am

I thought they breeded them with goblins, not men.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-23 04:11am

It was men.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2002-12-23 04:31am

Those were desperate men.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-12-23 06:24am

FaxModem1 wrote:I thought they breeded them with goblins, not men.

Goblin is just another name for Orc.

Halcyon · Post by **Halcyon** » 2002-12-23 07:01am

According to Tolkien Saruman used men whose minds he had destroyed to the point where they would not care that they were sleeping with Orcs.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-23 07:23am

Halcyon wrote:According to Tolkien Saruman used men whose minds he had destroyed to the point where they would not care that they were sleeping with Orcs.

I knew a lot of guys like that when I was in the Navy.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-12-23 07:42am

Tsyroc wrote:
Halcyon wrote:According to Tolkien Saruman used men whose minds he had destroyed to the point where they would not care that they were sleeping with Orcs.
I knew a lot of guys like that when I was in the Navy. :D

I know a few guys like that on these boards...

*hides*

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-23 09:20am

Ok, so the Uruk-Hai are the product of breeding men with orcs. So why is it that they say breeding orcs and goblins in the film?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-12-23 09:50am

Vympel wrote:Ok, so the Uruk-Hai are the product of breeding men with orcs. So why is it that they say breeding orcs and goblins in the film?

Don't they say men? I believe so.
Anyways, even if they fucked it up the Uruk-Hai are clearly more human-looking.

According to Tolkien Saruman used men whose minds he had destroyed to the point where they would not care that they were sleeping with Orcs.

Guess we know the reason for RSA's stupidity now.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-23 10:02am

Men.

It was the reason that they could tolerate sunlight when all other creatures of Morgoth can not abide it.

As for Urik-hai

The half elves are not immortal unless they are children of Miair. (like The House of Elrond).

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-23 02:12pm

Uruk-Hai cannot possibly be immortal. According to the films, their life expectency is no greater than a week, as they are all doomed to be killed by either Aragorn, Gimli or Legolas.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-23 02:27pm

Durandal wrote:Uruk-Hai cannot possibly be immortal. According to the films, their life expectency is no greater than a week, as they are all doomed to be killed by either Aragorn, Gimli or Legolas.

Meh. That'd be invunerable.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-12-23 02:40pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Men.

It was the reason that they could tolerate sunlight when all other creatures of Morgoth can not abide it.

As for Urik-hai

The half elves are not immortal unless they are children of Miair. (like The House of Elrond).

There were never many half-Elves. Middle Earth is not like the world of D&D. Elves and Men simply never intermixed except in a few rare instances: Beren & Luthien, Tuor & Idril, and Aragorn & Arwen, and that's it.

Other unions involved individuals of already mixed parentage. Beren & Luthien's son Dior (half-Elf) married Nimloth (Elf), and their daughter Elwing (three-quarter-Elf) married Earendil (half-Elf), who was the son of Tuor & Idril. Earendil's & Elwing's sons, Elros and Elrond, were thus extremely mixed.

All these individuals had to make the choice except Earendil (and that's because he was set in the sky by the Valar as a star). Earendil sort of had the choice made for him, since he had walked in the Undying Lands went he went to appeal to the Valar. Since he had walked in the Undying Lands, he could not chose mortality. Luthien, though fully Elven, chose to die with Beren, as did Arwen with Aragorn. Tuor entered into the Undying Lands with Idril, and was the only mortal Man ever allowed to do so. Elwing was the first of the Half-Elves to make the choice, and she chose to be of the Firstborn.

So it doesn't seem to have because of any Maiar blood that these individuals had to decide. Each of the children of Iluvatar had an ultimate fate. Those of mixed parentage had to choose which they wanted. The choice was also made automatically for the children of Aragorn and Arwen, since there were no ships left to take them to Valinor had they wished to go there.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-12-23 04:04pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Men.

It was the reason that they could tolerate sunlight when all other creatures of Morgoth can not abide it.

As for Urik-hai

The half elves are not immortal unless they are children of Miair. (like The House of Elrond).

Really? I remember Gandalf saying that it was a mix of Orcs and goblin men. At least that is what the subs said. I don't have the DVD with me so someone would have to verify. Though men does make more sense.

And from some of the books on the film, it said that goblins were orcs that were smaller and had larger eyes. At least in reference to the orcs at Moria which were referred to as goblins. Seems that goblin is a term for certain types of orcs.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-23 04:14pm

neoolong wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:Men.

It was the reason that they could tolerate sunlight when all other creatures of Morgoth can not abide it.

As for Urik-hai

The half elves are not immortal unless they are children of Miair. (like The House of Elrond).
Really? I remember Gandalf saying that it was a mix of Orcs and goblin men. At least that is what the subs said. I don't have the DVD with me so someone would have to verify. Though men does make more sense.

And from some of the books on the film, it said that goblins were orcs that were smaller and had larger eyes. At least in reference to the orcs at Moria which were referred to as goblins. Seems that goblin is a term for certain types of orcs.

I thought that when I saw it for the first time too, but it was men. Goblin is the mannish words for the elvish words 'orc' and usually refers to gblins from the west of middle-earth (the misty mountains) and those futher west and north in Eriador.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-23 04:16pm

Plus I didn't think Orcs were immortal. When they were corrupted by Melkor I thought it said in the Silmarillion that they "bred like flies and lived short lives".

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-23 04:23pm

According to Tolkien's notes, orcs are not even elves. Although in the Silmarillion it says they are elves, his son Chris had to pile most of Tolkien's works into the Silmarillion after his death. Now there is some speculation of the beginnings of the Orcs. In his notes Tolkien specifically wrote:

Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish

Which could mean that he intended to change it before he died. Although that quote directly contradicts the one seen by most in the Silmarillion:

"But indeed a darker tale some yet tell in Eressëa, saying that the Orcs were verily in their beginning of the Quendi themselves, a kindred of the Avari unhappy whom Morgoth cozened, and then made captive, and so enslaved them, and so brought them uttery to ruin."

This is nearly the same text everybody reads and understand in the Silmarillion and quote when they bring forth that Orcs were in their beginning enslaved and corrupted elves. But now it is seen that this was not so; as the former quote was the most recent but because it was so lacking in detail, Christopher Tolkien may have thought it would be better to use the original explanation of the Orcs having Elvish backgrounds.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-23 04:29pm

Further evidence that may point to Orcs being derived from the line of men follows (later I will post evidence that it was elves):

In the tale " The debate of Finrod and Andreth.", Andreth speaks of the Fall of Men and that they ( Men ) are not now as they once were. This conversation took place during the Long Peace before the siege of Angband was broken. Andreth tells Finrod that

"The darkness that is now confined to the North, but once lay upon all Middle-Earth while you dwelt in your bliss"

here she refers to the time between the War of the Gods and the returning of Melkor and the Elves to Middle-Earth from Aman. At this time Men had not crossed the Ered Luin into Beleriand yet but still lived East of the mountains. The fact of that could prove to us why the wise of Eressea thought the Orcs derived from them and not from Men. The Elves had not any knoledge of mankind at that time.

Finrod asks Andreth what it is the Mankind have done long ago in the dark and how they have angered Ìluvatar but she will not tell him but says there is no remembering of it in her folks but there is tales of it among the people of Adanel. (Third House.) The tale of Adanel of whitch there is several

"but all agree in making the cause of the disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King and God."

According to the Tale of Adanel ( Morgoth`s Ring.) the disaster ( The Fall of Men.) happened in the beginning of the history of Men, before any of them had yet died. Melkor came to them and ensnared them by promises and gifts and knowledge but over time he became there master and demanded acknoledgement and petitions and demanded ever increasing deeds of his will

"Now you are mine and must do my will, i do not trouble that some of you die and go to appease the hunger of the dark; for otherwise there would soon be too many of you crawling like lice on the Earth. But if you do not do my will, you will feel my anger, and you will die sooner, for i will slay you"

To some Melkor began to show favour, to the strongest and cruellest, he gave gifts to them and they became poverful and proud and they enslaved the others. But some at last repented Melkor and spoke against him, thiese were slain by Melkors friends or burned to death in the temple but some escaped anf fleed into far countries but they did not escape from there past for they had too worshipped Melkor and build and bowed in the temple. ( Morgoth`s Ring ; Tale of Adanel.)

At the end of the tale Adanel

"Some Men say that he blasphemed Eru, and dienied His existence, or his power, and that our fathers assented, and took Melkor to be a Lord and God ; and that thereby our Fëar ( Soul ) denied thier own true nature, and so became darkening and weakened almost to the death. And through the the weakness of the Fëar our Hroar ( Body / Matter.) fell into unhealth, and lay open to all evils and disorders of the world. And others say that Eru himself spoke in wrath saying : If the darkness be your God, little here shall you have of Light, but shall live it soon and come before Me, to learn who lies, Melkor or I who made him."

In this tale Tolkien have shown and proved that Men as a race fell under the dominion of Melkor at the wery beginning of there time not many years after the rising of the Sun

"Before any of them had yet died"

and Melkor now have Humans in his possesion East of the mountains before the Elves meet them and that they worshipped him as a God. Melkor had the raw material to the Orcs from the beginning of the time of Men. But there is still some questions to be answered : How could Melkor have a host of Orcs attacking Feanor when they landed at the shores of Middle-Earth before the Sun arose ?. It is said that the Secondborn awoke in Hildorien when the Sun first stroke Middle-Earth.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-23 04:33pm

The next question is how could Melkor have breed the Orcs from Mankind when he was imprisoned in Aman after the battle and have them ready when he returned from Aman and when the Noldor came, very soon after him, the Orcs had already infested the Earth.

( As a curiosum and fact J.R.R.Tolkien was thinking of a major alteration of the myths about the awakening of Men and in the tale of Adanel there is shadows of it; glimpses of a time before the known awakening. Also in the Athrebeth Finrod ah Andreth ( The debate of Finrod and Andreth ) is something shown of this thought. Andreth speaks of

"Legends of days when death came less swiftly and our span was longer"

and

"A rumour that has come down through years uncounted"

In Morgoth`s Ring; Myths transformed Text II. P.375-385. Tolkien wrote

"Men must awake while Melkor is still in Arda - because of their Fall. Therefore in some period during the Great March."

( of the Elves.) and there is refferances to thiese texts. But the thoughts were never achieved and would have demanded a enourmous effort of rewriting. )

The answer is given by Tolkien in Morgoth`s Ring ; Myth transformed ; Orcs.P.416 )

"The Leutenant of Melkor lay hid when Melkor was made captive and it was he ( Sauron ) who worked and schemed for Melkor. " Sauron was cooler and more capable of calculation and he was often able to achieve things, first concieved by Melkor, which his Master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice." When Melkor was made captive Sauron escaped and lay hid and it can in this way be understood how the breeding ( no doubt already begun.) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman."

( The time of Melkors captivity.)

There is no doubt in my mind that Tolkien originaly had thought the Elves to be the prime resource for the Orcs but that he later ran into trouble with this and had to remake the origin of them and it is by believe it was with the question of what becomes of the Orcs or more precisely of there souls when they die. If they were living beings ( And they were ) and not puppets they had a soul or fëa even if totally corrupted and dominated by evil. The fëa of the Eldar and all other Elves were bound within the life Arda as long as it endures and in Time according to the law and how they were deviced by Iluvatar. An Orc-soul, in this case an corrupted Elf, would be summoned to come to the Halls of Awaiting in Aman and if they choose to come, ultimate evil would be brought with them into Aman, indeed a wish becoming true for Melkor.

From this it must be plain that J.T. had changed his view from whatever it had been, to orcs derives not from elves; with his own hand he wrote " Orcs are not Elvish"

Many people dont like it. It contradicts with what they had known to be true but true is only based on what is known; once western mankind believed the world was flat and we derived from Adam and Eva and female sex was made of a bone from man. That was the truth until we learned otherwise. What is more is that it is not just notes dropped here and there. The tales of the ancient world was living in his mind and thus exposed to alterations and new knoledge. And even they comes unhandy, we as Tolkien should be open to this evolution shown to us by C.T.and greets it instead of mourning it. Anything else is far to conservative and we would only have the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings left. That would definently be a shame.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-12-23 04:33pm

Morning Star wrote:I thought that when I saw it for the first time too, but it was men. Goblin is the mannish words for the elvish words 'orc' and usually refers to gblins from the west of middle-earth (the misty mountains) and those futher west and north in Eriador.

Except that it was Legolas who said "goblins" in Moria. And he's an elf. Or chalk it up to a movie mistake.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » 2002-12-23 04:48pm

neoolong wrote:
Morning Star wrote:I thought that when I saw it for the first time too, but it was men. Goblin is the mannish words for the elvish words 'orc' and usually refers to gblins from the west of middle-earth (the misty mountains) and those futher west and north in Eriador.
Except that it was Legolas who said "goblins" in Moria. And he's an elf. Or chalk it up to a movie mistake.

He was from Mirkwood, effectively in the west and one of the Silvian elves (those who didn't travel to in the Great Voyage) and so it may be their language is different to those elves who lived with the Valar, or perhaps he said it because the other members of the Fellowship...or maybe it was just a mistake.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-12-23 05:09pm

Actually, the evlish word for orc is Yrchh or something like that.

Goblins are the mountain variety and your typical "orcs" are from the land. The orcs of mordor in the beginning of the movie seemed well....purple-ish, while the normal orcs of saruman seemed to be more on the brown and green variety.

BenRG · Post by **BenRG** » 2002-12-23 05:48pm

The Urak-Hai aren't immortal, but they are extraordinarily hard to kill. They can suffer disabilng injuries (traumatic amputation or impalement) and keep on fighting. From the example of the Urak-Hai archer that Aragorn went one-on-one with at the end of 'Fellowship', I would say they have several survival characteristics:

Firstly they don't seem to have a circulatory system like ours. Instead of high-pressure tubing, they must have some other way of moving nutrients and wastes around their bodies. Despite some serious injuries, that Urak-Hai never had the ol' Pekenpah squirting blood. This means that they don't have blood volume & blood pressure loss worries when dealing with major injuries.

Secondly, while the Urak-Hai seem to have awareness of damage to their bodies, they don't seem to suffer pain in the same way that we do. That means that they don't suffer any loss of fighting efficiency due to their senses being overwhelmed by pain.

In many ways, they are genetically-engineered super-soldiers. An interesting example of 'science eventuality' (to use Steven Spielberg's buzzphrase) that one does not usually expect from fantasy literature.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-12-23 07:11pm

BenRG wrote:The Urak-Hai aren't immortal, but they are extraordinarily hard to kill. They can suffer disabilng injuries (traumatic amputation or impalement) and keep on fighting. From the example of the Urak-Hai archer that Aragorn went one-on-one with at the end of 'Fellowship', I would say they have several survival characteristics:

Firstly they don't seem to have a circulatory system like ours. Instead of high-pressure tubing, they must have some other way of moving nutrients and wastes around their bodies. Despite some serious injuries, that Urak-Hai never had the ol' Pekenpah squirting blood. This means that they don't have blood volume & blood pressure loss worries when dealing with major injuries.

Secondly, while the Urak-Hai seem to have awareness of damage to their bodies, they don't seem to suffer pain in the same way that we do. That means that they don't suffer any loss of fighting efficiency due to their senses being overwhelmed by pain.

In many ways, they are genetically-engineered super-soldiers. An interesting example of 'science eventuality' (to use Steven Spielberg's buzzphrase) that one does not usually expect from fantasy literature.

Even the Elves aren't truly immortal in that sense - they can be killed. What I mean is do the Uruk-Hai grow old and die, or are they like the Elves and other Orcs in that they live indefinitely unless they are slain?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Are the Uruk-Hai immortal?

Are the Uruk-Hai immortal?

Orcs could have been men.

Me again.