Discussion of proposed new arguments

[Havok]

PS. I'm also planning to add http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Sci ... ction.html

FUCK!! Well.... that's it. I'm gonna have to go back to fucking college to understand my favorite site. Thanks alot Mike.

[Connor MacLeod]

I still have to sit down and re-read through the destruction page. Its pretty big and there's alot of stuff to assimilate, but it looks really interesting.

[Junghalli]

Hmm, some I can suggest for weapons...

(1) But Star Wars weapons don't look anywhere near as powerful as the ICS describes them.

(2) In ANH Vader's unshielded fighter takes a glancing hit from a fighter-mounted laser - a kiloton range weapon according to the ICS - and takes only moderated damage (I know it wasn't actually a TIE fighter but this one crops up a lot).

[Havok]

(1) But Star Wars weapons don't look anywhere near as powerful as the ICS describes them.

This one is there. I just read it.

[Agemegos]

PS. I'm also planning to add http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Sci ... ction.html

Nice. In the point where you are discussing the uses of deflagrating explosives you might like to add half a sentence about their usefulness as propellants.

[Kurgan]

Don't have anything to add at the moment, but kudos on plans to update!

[Lord Poe]

Hey Mike, I hear from Mike Dicenso that "Big Hairy Mountain Pussy" has
throughly debunked your asteroid calculator. Maybe you could address that?

[Darth Wong]

Hey Mike, I hear from Mike Dicenso that "Big Hairy Mountain Pussy" has
throughly debunked your asteroid calculator. Maybe you could address that?

Is that worthless Dicenso turd still kicking around? I thought he would have died in a tragic Vulcan blow-up doll asphyxiation accident by now.

[NecronLord]

Hey Mike, I hear from Mike Dicenso that "Big Hairy Mountain Pussy" has
throughly debunked your asteroid calculator. Maybe you could address that?

That's some comedy, right there in that thread. I like, especially: "Hypermatter violates E=MC^2" Guess someone hasn't read RotS ICS...

[Kane Starkiller]

Man oh man I just love those "Darkstar-style" evidence for Death Star superlaser. The latest from today is when webmaster from StarfleetJedi a guy by the screenname JediMasterSpock claimed that wingless cruiser disapperars and that there is a "hole" in the explosion therby proving the Desth Star "disappears" matter or whatever.
I provided him with a screenshot and asked to actually point out the hole. Here is what he came up with.
Ahahahahahahahahahahhhahahaha! How much more desperate and pathetic can you get?
Would this even be a valid "argument"? How do you respond to such obvious lies?

[NecronLord]

I don't know if it fits in the concept of the arguments page as it stands but the Q as high tech using race instead of godlike being

Ahem. IIRC, Quinn outright says 'it's tech' and 'they just want you to think they're omnipotent' - no more evidence should be needed than that, really. It's quite an old theme in ST, that, right back to Trelane having technology that makes his powers go. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say 'there are no god races, just ones with subtle technologies you can't see' if I had creative control.

[Vympel]

Man oh man I just love those "Darkstar-style" evidence for Death Star superlaser. The latest from today is when webmaster from StarfleetJedi a guy by the screenname JediMasterSpock claimed that wingless cruiser disapperars and that there is a "hole" in the explosion therby proving the Desth Star "disappears" matter or whatever.
I provided him with a screenshot and asked to actually point out the hole. Here is what he came up with.
Ahahahahahahahahahahhhahahaha! How much more desperate and pathetic can you get?
Would this even be a valid "argument"? How do you respond to such obvious lies?

It never ceases to amaze me how desperate these fucktards are to prove the Death Star is using magic. Now they're pouring over obvious fucking explosions claiming visual artifacts that aren't there to "prove" same, with the same creationist non-logic they have about Alderaan, only with even less basis. I mean, don't look at the big fuck-off explosion, that'd make too much sense.

[Lord Poe]

Ok gents, I may have begun to derail Mike's thread, and I'm sorry for that. Let's cease the Darkstar stuff and stay on topic. There's a "funniest debateras/trolls of other forums" thread in HoS that all this would fit into perfectly!

[NecronLord]

And the always-popular "the Federation will just transport bombs into the Empire's reactors, since nothing the Empire has can stop transporters."

In dealing with this, it might be perhaps profitable, to, as well as stressing the easily jammed nature of ST transporters, mention that there's no problem with the theory using some other teleportation systems (Culture displacement, for example) but that ST transporters would never even get near an active reactor, and it's iffy if they could even penetrate the hull.

[Ted C]

One of the arguments I heard recently is that Death Star doesn't neccesarily mean that Empire could produce millions of Star Destroyers since there is a possibility that Death Star will be cheaper.

The usual basis is the fact that an average US destroyer is some 4 times more expensive than aircraft carrier per unit of mass so extrapolating that to Death Star/Star Destroyer size ratio would lead to thousands of times lesser per unit of mass cost for the Death Star.

Some economy of scale makes sense. After all, most of the cost of constructing a navy warship is the labor going into it, not the material. The labor cost per unit of mass probably does go down with increasing ship size, but there's going to be a limit anyway. The infrastructure required to support a project like the Death Star would still be sufficient to support the construction of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Star Destroyers. The fact that Death Stars are relatively unique projects rather than mass-produced products also cuts into the economy-of-scale argument.

[Batman]

While the per-mass/per-volume cost of the DS may have been considerably lower that of an ISD (note that's a 'may' and a completely speculative one, especially as the labour cost TedC mentioned is a hard factor to quantify what with largely free droid labour being widely available) the DSII completely torpedoes the 'they can't afford millions of ISDs' claim.
125 times at least the size of the DSI, 60% completed within six months, in secret, without anybody noticing any drain on the economy, with the materiel shipping needs handles by one private company. That really says all about the Imps's industrial capacity that needs to be said.

[Vympel]

Hah, that's cute. Trekkies nitpicking about the Death Star- that's like Zanzibar scoffing and saying the Red Army isn't as big as everyone thinks it is

[Mange]

Kane, I'm sorry about my memory lapse, but did Darkstar ever respond to your correction (which is quite excellent)?

[Mange]

Sorry for the double post. I cross-checked Darkstar's site, and yes, according to his very own calculations, the Death Star is 282 kilometers in diameter. He used a width of 31.5 meters for the Falcon and even with the (clearly erroneous) WEG figure of 18 meters, the DS would still be ~164 kilometers in diameter.

[Kane Starkiller]

Kane, I'm sorry about my memory lapse, but did Darkstar ever respond to your correction (which is quite excellent)?

He said that he accidentaly lost "1" from 170px count thus generating 247.7 meter figure. He also said that newest information reveals that Falcon is not 31.5 meters wide as he used in his scalings so the entire page would have to be revised. However Falcon can't really be less than some 20m in width which pegs the lower limit of DS diameter to roughly 160-180km.

[Batman]

I would be very much interested in this 'newest information' because I very much doubt they changed the size of the Falcon in the movies, which according to none other than Dumbstar himself is the only thing that counts.

[Vympel]

Who gives a shit about Darkstar's scaling anyway? I'll take the scaling Doctor David West Reynolds took from Skywalker Ranch, thank you very much.

In any event, we're hijacking the thread somewhat. Enough DumbShit.

[Mange]

Who gives a shit about Darkstar's scaling anyway? I'll take the scaling Doctor David West Reynolds took from Skywalker Ranch, thank you very much.

In any event, we're hijacking the thread somewhat. Enough DumbShit.

I'm sorry Vympel that I got a little side tracked. I thought it was interesting since (I believe it was) Dangermouse did a scaling last year based on the visuals and dialogue of the trench run and ended up with a diameter of 220 kilometers for the Death Star. This is interesting since the Death Star, if we look at behind the scenes information, was intended to be 216 kilometers in diameter. The Death Star model was, according to the Behind the Magic CD-ROM and the Official Site, 120 centimeters in diameter (Dr. Saxton mistakenly believed that it was three feet wide). At the scale in which it was built (1/180,000 according to Bantha Tracks), this turns out to 216 kilometers.

And to suggest an argument: Dispel the notion that the Empire lacks logistical capabilities. That idea is something that has come up in discussions.

[Vympel]

And to suggest an argument: Dispel the notion that the Empire lacks logistical capabilities. That idea is something that has come up in discussions.

What kind of idiot would make that argument, and what could possibly be their evidence to support it? The very existence of the Death Star precludes it.

[Mange]

And to suggest an argument: Dispel the notion that the Empire lacks logistical capabilities. That idea is something that has come up in discussions.

What kind of idiot would make that argument, and what could possibly be their evidence to support it? The very existence of the Death Star precludes it.

I've seen it rear it ugly head occasionally, and I encountered two people making the claim here (including the remarkable claim that there only were a total of 20 million ships in the galaxy pre-AOTC ):
+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 03019/p50/