Discussion of proposed new arguments

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-09-17 11:16am

Mange wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Mange wrote:
And to suggest an argument: Dispel the notion that the Empire lacks logistical capabilities. That idea is something that has come up in discussions.
What kind of idiot would make that argument, and what could possibly be their evidence to support it? The very existence of the Death Star precludes it.
I've seen it rear it ugly head occasionally, and I encountered two people making the claim here (including the remarkable claim that there only were a total of 20 million ships in the galaxy pre-AOTC ):
+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 03019/p50/

what posts am I looking for,I must have my page defaults different from yours

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-09-17 11:28am

Vympel wrote: What kind of idiot would make that argument, and what could possibly be their evidence to support it? The very existence of the Death Star precludes it.

Remember, if the Death Star bankrupted the Empire, then it's an outlier, and can't be used in any arguments. See, it's like a conspiracy theory: look at all the nitpicked details, and it makes a pretty convincing web of trees ... until you look at the forest.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-17 12:17pm

Ender wrote:
Mange wrote:
Vympel wrote: What kind of idiot would make that argument, and what could possibly be their evidence to support it? The very existence of the Death Star precludes it.
I've seen it rear it ugly head occasionally, and I encountered two people making the claim here (including the remarkable claim that there only were a total of 20 million ships in the galaxy pre-AOTC ):
+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 03019/p50/
what posts am I looking for,I must have my page defaults different from yours

Oh. See Charlemagne19's post dated 9/15 11:57 pm Pacific Time and Sinrebirth's post dated 9/16 12:42 pm Pacific Time (Pacific Time is used as board time).

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-17 12:23pm

That guy's a regular piece of work. I still think his post that Coruscant would turn into a black hole "in real life" needs to be framed.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-17 12:26pm

Vympel wrote:That guy's a regular piece of work. I still think his post that Coruscant would turn into a black hole "in real life" needs to be framed.

Yes, I don't know what to call it really... Regarding Sinrebirth's outrageous claim of a puny 20 million ships in the entire galaxy prior to AOTC, does anyone recognize that? I mean, you only have to look at Coruscant, the need to sustain the population and the density in the skylanes.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-09-17 02:22pm

Any large influx of energy, especially if it involves significant vaporization, must automatically look like or behave like a bomb/nuclear or otherwise when it strikes a target.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-17 09:50pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Any large influx of energy, especially if it involves significant vaporization, must automatically look like or behave like a bomb/nuclear or otherwise when it strikes a target.

Mike's got that already

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-18 01:06am

Stark wrote:Perhaps you could add the variants on 'cloaks mean ST ships can decloak in blindspots and kill ISDs' argument? It's quite common, despite the 'right place, right time' part being a massive assumption.

Certaion trektard idiots don't seem to realize that the blind spot is ONLY IMMEDIATELY behind the bridge tower. It does NOT extend back for infinity or even a few hundred meters.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-09-18 11:16pm

EDIT:NM, I realized a math error. Appears to be closer to 2 MJ now. Which is in line with blaster estimates

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 12:34am

For the Q omnipotency argument, in 'Hide and Q' de Lancie Q himself tells Riker that humans will eventually surpass the Continuium. How can you get better than omnipotent?

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 12:42am

Darth Servo wrote:For the Q omnipotency argument, in 'Hide and Q' de Lancie Q himself tells Riker that humans will eventually surpass the Continuium. How can you get better than omnipotent?

Because the Q aren't omnipotent. Quinn says it himself quite plainly in the VOY episode Deathwish.

How do we reconcile this with the numerous statements of omnipotence by Q over the years? It could simply be that the Q are so powerful that while they aren't technically omnipotent (ie. they do have some limitations), they may as well be considered such. To a lesser being like a 24th century human there wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, while I haven't exactly combed the english language for alernatives, it may simply be the word that comes closest, so they choose to use it.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 12:45am

vivftp wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:For the Q omnipotency argument, in 'Hide and Q' de Lancie Q himself tells Riker that humans will eventually surpass the Continuium. How can you get better than omnipotent?
Because the Q aren't omnipotent. Quinn says it himself quite plainly in the VOY episode Deathwish.

Yes, I know. I was simply adding another piece of evidence to the pile.

How do we reconcile this with the numerous statements of omnipotence by Q over the years? It could simply be that the Q are so powerful that while they aren't technically omnipotent (ie. they do have some limitations), they may as well be considered such. To a lesser being like a 24th century human there wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, while I haven't exactly combed the english language for alernatives, it may simply be the word that comes closest, so they choose to use it.

Or the most simple explanation of all: Q is a known liar.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 12:52am

Darth Servo wrote: Or the most simple explanation of all: Q is a known liar.

Ahh the, "ignore whatever this person says because he's been known to lie" approach. The problem I have with that is where does the tossing out of things end?

Anyways I believe mine is the most simple explaination. It of course also depends on which definition of 'omnipotent' we're using. Here's one from Dictionary.com:

1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.

And here's one from AskOxford.com:

• adjective having unlimited or very great power.

The first part of definition #2 would definately apply to the Q for dictionary.com, as would the second part of AskOxford. It also fits very well with my above explaination.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 01:08am

By the way since we're on the topic, besides that 1 comment by Vash of Q being known as "the God of lies" on one planet (obviously open to interpretation since we don't know any details of that situation), what actual instances of Q lying do we have to judge him as a "known liar"?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 01:11am

vivftp wrote:By the way since we're on the topic, besides that 1 comment by Vash of Q being known as "the God of lies" on one planet (obviously open to interpretation since we don't know any details of that situation), what actual instances of Q lying do we have to judge him as a "known liar"?

His statements regarding the borg in 'Q-who' come to mind.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 01:15am

Darth Servo wrote: His statements regarding the borg in 'Q-who' come to mind.

What, the part about them being neither male or female? When you're a drone it doesn't matter what you used to be before being assimilated, your gender is now irrelevant. So while we can look at a drone and say that it used to be a male human or a female klingon, it's now just a Borg drone.

I wouldn't exactly call this a lie, but telling it from the Borgs perspective.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-09-19 01:20am

vivftp wrote:
Darth Servo wrote: His statements regarding the borg in 'Q-who' come to mind.
What, the part about them being neither male or female? When you're a drone it doesn't matter what you used to be before being assimilated, your gender is now irrelevant. So while we can look at a drone and say that it used to be a male human or a female klingon, it's now just a Borg drone.

I wouldn't exactly call this a lie, but telling it from the Borgs perspective.

As Ben Kenobi would say: From a certain point of view...

Right, not lying at all.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 01:29am

Ghost Rider wrote: As Ben Kenobi would say: From a certain point of view...

Right, not lying at all.

Well not from any random point of view - but from the point of view of the Borg themselves which is a pretty important point of view when describing them.

Look at it this way - what reason did Q have to lie here? He obviously knows about the Borg, and if this were a lie it had absolutely no purpose. So what was the point of lying about such a trivial thing?

None, really. That's why it makes more sense to think he's speaking from the Borgs perspective to describe the Borg. It makes sense on all fronts, unlike the assumption that he was flat out lying, which has the gaping flaw of why lie about such a thing.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 01:43am

vivftp wrote:
Darth Servo wrote: His statements regarding the borg in 'Q-who' come to mind.
What, the part about them being neither male or female? When you're a drone it doesn't matter what you used to be before being assimilated, your gender is now irrelevant. So while we can look at a drone and say that it used to be a male human or a female klingon, it's now just a Borg drone.

I wouldn't exactly call this a lie, but telling it from the Borgs perspective.

Unless they hack the assimilated male's schlong off (

), he's still a male.

And there was also the bit about them not being interested in humanity, only their ship. As something they can use and consume.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 01:58am

Darth Servo wrote: Unless they hack the assimilated male's schlong off ( ), he's still a male.

While the equiptment may still be present, it's now irrelevant to what the being is, which is a Borg drone. Once again, from the Borg Collectives perspective it's just a drone - gender is now irrelevant.

Also, if we really want to nitpick here, Q was only talking about that 1, specific drone standing there in Engineering. It could have come from a race which doesn't have males or females, therefore his statement would be true to that one specific drone.

And there was also the bit about them not being interested in humanity, only their ship. As something they can use and consume.

Q's statement there was:

"They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, it's technology. They've identified it as something they can consume."

The part about not being interested in humanity, as you put it came earlier with the drone in Engineering when Picard was trying to initiate contact with it. That line was:

"Understand you? You're nothing to him. He's not interested in your life form. He's just a scout, the first of many. He's here to analyze your technology."

So via the first quote, he says the Borg are interested in the ship. Nothing there to indicate they wouldn't also be interested in assimilating the crew - they just have more interest in the ship and this doesn't contradict anything else we know about the Borg.

With the second quote Q was talking about that 1 specific drone standing there in Engineering. It was sent with the task of studying the Enterprises technology, not to go on an assimilation spree of the crew. So this in no way contradicts the behaviour of the Borg, since Q wasn't talking about the Borg in general, but of only that 1 scout.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 02:03am

vivftp wrote:So via the first quote, he says the Borg are interested in the ship. Nothing there to indicate they wouldn't also be interested in assimilating the crew - they just have more interest in the ship and this doesn't contradict anything else we know about the Borg.

You tear apart their ship, the people die. Its kinda difficult to assimilate people if they're dead.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 02:09am

Darth Servo wrote: You tear apart their ship, the people die. Its kinda difficult to assimilate people if they're dead.

When did anyone say anything about tearing the whole ship apart? The cube sliced out a core of the Enterprise as a sample - they got over a dozen crewmembers and probably a fair example of tech from it, and they're more interested in the tech.

Why in the world would you believe they'd carve up the rest of the ship rather than beaming over more drones to assimilate it, or beaming the Enterprise crew off then assimilating the ship?

BTW, to nitpick a bit the Borg could very well assimilate you after you're dead, depending on how you died

Neelix was dead for 18 hours when he was revived with Borg nanoprobes.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 02:14am

vivftp wrote:
When did anyone say anything about tearing the whole ship apart? The cube sliced out a core of the Enterprise as a sample - they got over a dozen crewmembers and probably a fair example of tech from it, and they're more interested in the tech.

Those 18 crewmembers were KILLED, remember?

Why in the world would you believe they'd carve up the rest of the ship rather than beaming over more drones to assimilate it, or beaming the Enterprise crew off then assimilating the ship?

Um, because thats exactly what they did with every OTHER Federation ship that attacked them (Wolf 359, First Contact)

BTW, to nitpick a bit the Borg could very well assimilate you after you're dead, depending on how you died Neelix was dead for 18 hours when he was revived with Borg nanoprobes.

I'm not familiar with the incident.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-19 02:24am

Darth Servo wrote: Those 18 crewmembers were KILLED, remember?

As I'll get to below, that doesn't mean the Borg couldn't assimilate them still.

Um, because thats exactly what they did with every OTHER Federation ship that attacked them (Wolf 359, First Contact)

Right, because the Borg were trying to assimilate the fleet at Wolf 359 and in First Contact.... oh wait right, they weren't. They were trying to get to Earth, and these fleets stood in their way so they laid the smack down on them.

I'm not familiar with the incident.

It was the VOY episode Mortal Coil. Chakotay, Paris and Neelix were on a mission in a shuttle to study a protomatter nebula. During the mission an attempt to transport some protomatter on board caused the nebula to go screwy and it sent an energy "beam" into the shuttle which struck Neelix and killed him. Here's Paris's report on him just after that incident:

PARIS: He's dead. No heart beat, no synaptic response, extensive cell damage to his brain.
CHAKOTAY: Try a cortical stimulator.
PARIS: It won't work. His neural pathways were disrupted by the protomatter.
CHAKOTAY: Set the stimulator for an autonomic bypass. At least we can get his vitals going.
PARIS: It's too late for that. The damage was too severe.

Later after they got back to Voyager the EMH confirmed there was nothing they could have done to save him. Soon after 7 walks in and we get this dialogue:

SEVEN: Neelix is dead?
JANEWAY: I'm afraid so.
SEVEN: His neural pathways, are they intact?
EMH: Yes, but there's no metabolic activity.
SEVEN: How long has he been dead?
JANEWAY: Seven, I understand
SEVEN: How long?
CHAKOTAY: It's been eighteen hours.
SEVEN: Then it's not too late to reactivate him.
PARIS: What are you saying? You can bring Neelix back to life?
SEVEN: That's precisely what I'm saying. The Borg have assimilated species with far greater medical knowledge than your own. We are capable of reactivating drones as much as seventy three hours after what you would call death.
CHAKOTAY: Neelix wasn't a Borg drone.
SEVEN: We will adapt.
EMH: What does this procedure involve?
SEVEN: Nanoprobes are used to reverse cellular necrosis, while the cerebral cortex is stimulated with a neuro-electric isopulse.
EMH: But there's nothing left to stimulate. His brain functions are gone.
SEVEN: By your narrow definition, perhaps, but not by mine. You will extract seventy micrograms of nanoprobes from my bloodstream. I will modify them to match his Talaxian physiology. His function in this crew is diverse. If you wish to salvage him we must proceed immediately.
PARIS: I say we let her try.
JANEWAY: Hold on a minute, Tom, please. No-one's ever been resuscitated after being dead for eighteen hours. If this procedure does work, what are the chances that Neelix would come out of it unaffected?
EMH: She's right. The damage to his cerebral cortex was severe.
SEVEN: The nanoprobes will compensate for any cellular degradation. Captain, a decision has to be made quickly.

They performed the procedure and Neelix was revived just fine. If the Borg can do that to a person 18 hours after basically being electrocuted by a technobabble nebula, I don't see reviving 18 people who were probably exposed to space for under a minute being a huge issue.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 02:34am

vivftp wrote:While the equiptment may still be present, it's now irrelevant to what the being is, which is a Borg drone. Once again, from the Borg Collectives perspective it's just a drone - gender is now irrelevant.

By that logic, a monk who has taken a vow of chastity is no longer a male (assuming he keeps said vow and doesn't take it out on alter boys.)

Also, if we really want to nitpick here, Q was only talking about that 1, specific drone standing there in Engineering. It could have come from a race which doesn't have males or females, therefore his statement would be true to that one specific drone.

Whats the point of describing one drone like that if its not the norm? Q was introducing Picard and company to the borg. Its not like he's gonna say, "oh this is what this one is like. Others are different." No. He was describing drones in general...supposedly.

"They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, it's technology. They've identified it as something they can consume."

THIS proves they were planning on tearing the E-D apart. Unless of course Q was lying in which case you concede the whole point.

If the Borg can do that to a person 18 hours after basically being electrocuted by a technobabble nebula, I don't see reviving 18 people who were probably exposed to space for under a minute being a huge issue.

Even though the cause of death is completely different? Nice no limits borg wank there.